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[thats1evildude]

This is just a theory on my part, but I believe that Orsino secretly supported Quentin's research into necromancy in the hopes of gaining a weapon against Meredith, foreseeing that a confrontation with the Knight-Commander was inevitable. If Quentin could learn how to bring the dead back to life, that would be very potent magic. That said, he didn't understand the true purpose of Quentin's research, ie. to animate flesh golem resembling his dead wife.

He covered up his connection to Quentin knowing that Meredith could use it to justify even more oppressive measures against the mages. And he withheld actually using Quentin's magic until the very end, when he had finally lost all hope; the Harvester was too dangerous to unleash until there were no other options.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 24 septembre 2011 - 10:23 .

[BigEvil]

I think at the moment we're stuck in this position about not really knowing Orsino's true nature and unless we learn more from dev comments or perhaps DLC, it's up to the player's interpretation of what we know so far.

Personally I'd have liked to see Orsino be slightly different based on whether Hawke was leaning pro-mage or pro-templar. Have him explain in pro-mage (perhaps at an earlier meeting than the endgame) that he knew Quentin and helped him initially, but when he learned about say, the first murder and Quentin's plan, he cut all ties, but kept quiet so as not to provoke Meredith's retaliation against innocent mages. Have him be troubled by a guilty concience for keeping quiet.

Then when going pro-templar, his revelation about Quentin before turning Harvester could have been slightly longer, have him mention that he helped Quentin's research more, and that a few deaths, including Hawke's mother, were acceptable sacrifices for such knowledge.

That way you add a bit more personal incentive for pro-templar Hawke to kill Orsino, and give pro-mage Hawke an opportunity to see the sort of desperate position the mages are in, perhaps forgive Orsino or not. It uses the note in Quentin's lair, but changes the time of the note depending on where Hawke's loyalties lie.

It is a shame Orsino didn't get more screen time to flesh out his character, but the same can be said for Meredith.

[TEWR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote....

I'm going off of my memory here, but my personal rationalization for Orsino is something like this:


1) Quentin escapes from Starkhaven. Contacts his old buddy Orsino saying he wants to study blood magic and necromancy.
2) Orsino delivers books to Quentin at a specific area. He asks that Quentin keep him informed.
3) Quentin makes very detailed reports and sends them to Orsino.
4) Orsino reads them, and is fascinated by them. Sends Quentin a letter saying as much.
5) Quentin then sends Orsino a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual (something I'm unsure of how Quentin managed to figure out), which makes Orsino go "WTF" and he is horrified by it. And he keeps reading it to make sure he's not imagining things, but sadly his mind is not playing tricks on him. What he is reading is real, and so he puts it aside.
6) Orsino hears about what Quentin was doing, and now says "Maker.... what have I done.... I can't turn him in, because Meredith will bring the Circle down...."


Orsino was born with an eidetic memory, which is why he was able to remember what the ritual was about. Before that moment, he was only a mage who studied the theory of blood magic, but never actually used it. With Meredith around and her strict rules, I can't see much of an opportunity for him to practice using blood magic.




Sadly, he decides to show off his eidetic memory even to people who have sided with him because Bioware wanted another boss fight.

That's my personal rationalization. I really abhor how Bioware forces us to fight him because they wanted another boss fight, instead of allowing us to choose whether or not we fight him. Orsino was one of my favorite characters in the brief time I knew him, and his character was ruined for pro-mage people because....
 
*in The Lost voice*

...the Plot demands it!

Seriously, Orsino was a noble mage who put his charges before himself and would gladly sacrifice himself if it meant his charges would survive (though he didn't have to do it for pro-mage people!). This is evidenced by him saying he would help Meredith search the Gallows for evidence of blood magic, which is also a clear sign that the Circle wasn't beyond saving. As he had studied blood magic, I believe he would've given himself up.

...though I bet Meredith would've called for an Annulment again after that, ignoring the fact that any blood mages were discovered and taken care of and that the Circle was no longer a threat (note: I am not calling Orsino a threat).

It's my hope that Bioware retcons his death for pro-mage people and instead says that Varric exaggerated on the details. What really happened was a Pride Demon tore through the Veil literally (and for kicks, said Here's.... Johnny!!) and possessed a mage corpse. That Arcane Horror then proceeded to go through with the Harvester ritual (the arcane is eternal in the Fade, and since the ritual is a form of blood magic they would theoretically know about it).

Then Hawke and company -- aided by Orsino and a few other mages -- defeat the Harvester. Orsino thanks Hawke for aiding them, and then proceeds to leave with his mages. Hawke then goes to deal with Meredith.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2011 - 11:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Orsino's true personality has nothing to do with the boss battle, which I believe the devs admitted was just kind of thrown in there. Ignore everything to do with that, it has no place in the story.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's true personality has nothing to do with the boss battle, which I believe the devs admitted was just kind of thrown in there. Ignore everything to do with that, it has no place in the story.

It's hard to ignore something like that when it comes to Orsino. For me anyway.

[TJPags]

The "true" Orsino. Good question.

Personally, I think he's the poster child for what's wrong in Kirkwall. Secretly knows Blood Magic, knows others who practice it (along with necromancy) helps them in their research.

Yet he sure does go around playing the innocent, the put-upon helpless captive. All those times when he begged Hawke to help stop Meredith from searching the Circle, or interrogating mages - makes a LOT of sense, given what he's doing, and what he knows about the inner workings of the Circle.

The revelations about Orsino, which I only got AFTER choosing to support the poor, helpless put-upon, repressed mages, really made me feel like a chump. Convinced me that the Kirkwall Circle is indeed, blood mage central, that those mages in the Circle have a direct line to those apostates outside, and are the real problem and real threat in Kirkwall.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I supported the mages, but Orsino was a fundamentally weak man. He didn't have the moral strength to take out Quentin, the political sense to realize how detrimental that kind of research is to the public perception of mages, the common sense to realize how utterly creepy necromancy in general is, nor the strength of personality to stand toe to toe with Meredith. Instead, he's a resigned submissive who is too weak to lay down the law with his own people and too weak to represent them to the Templars. The mages deserve better than him.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 25 septembre 2011 - 02:48 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Either way, he was a poor First Enchanter. The Kirkwall circle had a high rate of failed harrowings, and it seemed that plenty mages (not all) were practicing or just studying blood magic, even Orsino. It was even mentioned that Orsino only got the position because no one else wanted it. 

With Meredith being plenty paranoid of blood magic, it didn't help that almost every mage in Kirkwall was, in fact, a blood mage.   An annulment was bound to happen eventually, especially with Meredith having her finger on the trigger, just waiting for the green light.  With Elthina out of the way, there was no one to stop her.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 25 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[Foolsfolly]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Either way, he was a poor First Enchanter. The Kirkwall circle had a high rate of failed harrowings, and it seemed that plenty mages (not all) were practicing or just studying blood magic, even Orsino. It was even mentioned that Orsino only got the position because no one else wanted it. 

With Meredith being plenty paranoid of blood magic, it didn't help that almost every mage in Kirkwall was, in fact, a blood mage.   An annulment was bound to happen eventually, especially with Meredith having her finger on the trigger, just waiting for the green light.  With Elthina out of the way, there was no one to stop her.

Apparently, the weakened Veil in Kirkwall is to blame for the crazy amount of insane mages we run across in DA2.

...

...the logical question then follows: Why have a Circle there in the first place?

So I don't blame him for being a bad First Enchanter (he may have been and he may not have been I don't know the guy) so much as the Veil being weak.

It's like Cthulhu's asleep under Kirkwall and mages are sensitive to the Outer God's dreams. They're driven crazy for it.

... Fun setting. Not the most unbiased setting for a game about the rights of Mages though, ya know?

[Gervaise]

I think Orsino was wrong to conceal what he knew about Quentin but I can see how once he got involved with him it was very difficult to disentangle himself. He had become the main dissenting voice not just for how the Circle Mages were being treated but also for the populace as a whole with regard to the hold that the templars seemed to have on secular power.
Strangely enough any suspicions I might have had about him from the Quentin note were mitigated by his behaviour against the Qunari. He had tried to shield his apprentices from harm and then when Meredith suggests a full frontal attack that would likely result in the death of the hostages within the keep, he offers the alternative of a distraction and provides this himself at great personal risk, when he has nothing to gain personally from such an action as the majority of witnesses are templars who are unlikely to credit a mage with anything. One thing I did wonder about though - what he was doing out with so many junior mages in the first place. Given what we know about Meredith, you'd think the first thing she would have done is confined the majority of mages to their cells, even if she allowed the First Enchanter to help, because the last thing she needed was a bunch of mages escaping during the confusion.

The general theme of DA2 seems to be that if you make a mage desparate enough then even the best of them will resort to blood magic, if not to save themselves, then purely as an act of revenge against those opposing them. This seems a very cynical view and one that I would dispute - people are capable of showing great nobility and dignity in facing death and I don't see why mages should be any different. As Anders says "there are some things worse than death". Ironically, considering what he is because for me turning into an abomination, particularly something as evil and gross as the Harvester, is worse than death. If my mage Hawke had to die then she wanted to be remembered in her true form, trying to save lives without resorting to blood magic, raising demons or undead. I want to remember Orsino as he was against the Qunari, not as that bloated monstrosity but unfortunately for mages, it is the latter that will be what is handed down to future generations. So maybe he was just a selfish, self centred, weak willed person after all.

[Cobra's_back]

My Hawke mage thought he was just as bad as Meredith. His working with Quentin only confirmed it. There were too many blood mages in Kirkwall. He should have helped Meredith track them down. The great press would have changed hearts and minds. Our Dragon Age Origin First Enchanter Irving would have fought the blood mages. Wynne told my mage from dragon age origin that the circle saved many children born with magic from getting killed by angry town’s people. The circles needed changes but the circle was still needed. I kept thinking where were the mages like Wynne and Niall in this story.
My mage Hawke got in Cullen face when he said mages were weapons. He came back and stated that maybe they needed to do a better job in explaining why the circle was needed. I felt like saying “no SH Sherlock”. At one point Meredith saved Hawke in Act2 and Orsino revealed he cared about the hostages. That demonstrated that they were both great fighter but lousy leader. It is just another classic example of promoting people to the level of incompetence.
It bugged me how they destroyed the Anders character. He was a great character in Awakening. He could have easily been a Cool Hand Luke and not the tyrant terrorist type. I’m pretty sure there were many mages that wanted him dead after his terrorist act. For a guy that wanted to have a family he surely didn’t care about the mage children in the circle.

[Gervaise]

To be fair to Orsino, my second mage Hawke spent most of the game "doing the Templars job for them" hunting down blood mages and encouraging others to go back to the Circle and didn't see any appreciable change of hearts and minds, although that is what she was working towards. I suppose you could argue that it did work if you took the Templar ending what with being made Vicount and the Templars bowing down before her but for me that didn't ring true either for the Templars or my own mage. After sending so many back to the Circle, she felt duty bound to protect them and in fact both Emile and Alain did turn up at the end, survived both the Templar and Harvester onslaught and were last seen heading for the exit. Didn't catch either of them resorting to blood magic either, so figure they finally got the message.
Anders does not care about the mages in the Circle - he has only contempt for them as he regards them as appeases and collaborators and therefore not worth worrying about. In fact nobody can come between him and his cause - he would have been quite willing to kill Hawke if necessary but was probably smart enough to realise that if he confessed to Hawke and forced a confrontation before he set off his bomb, then he wouldn't survive the encounter and then his longed for war and martyr status would not materialise. I too liked Anders in Awakening and was convinced that he would be my favourite love interest but as things turned out, I cannot bring myself to romance him and it really annoys me that the majority of run throughs I end up his friend, so for my 2nd mage I very deliberately made sure we ended up rivaled - at least that way I get Justice telling me to get lost. If his name ever crops up in DA3, I hope we get the opportunity to say exactly how we feel about him.

[AlexXIV]

Well for once, it is mere speculation if 'O' is Orsino. Of course it is rather obvius because of the lack of other candidates. I personally think that 'O' is Orsino, but I doubt he knew exactly what Quentin is doing. For example that he is a murderer. Maybe Orsino just didn't want to know, because he needed Quentin's research for the 'greater good' (in his opinion, not mine). Which is to fight the templars. Blood magic is the only kind of magic that templars cannot resist/nullify as far as I know. So the templars sort of force the mages that oppose them to use bloodmagic to have any chance at victory at all.

Personally I think Orsino was a bad First Enchanter, as Meredith was a bad Knight Commander. Both let their emotions keep them from doing their job properly. Orsino should never have allowed bloodmagic, it was his job to keep the Circle 'clean'. Meredith was too paranoic towards mages to be their shepard or keeper or whatever. Someone with an irrational aversion towards magic and mages shouldn't be in a position to judge them anyway.

Basically you can say both of them were too weak (willed) to fill their role and to solve the conflict. And that's basically what their personalities are about. Making alot of mistakes because they lacked honesty and courage.

[Reno_Tarshil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well for once, it is mere speculation if 'O' is Orsino. Of course it is rather obvius because of the lack of other candidates. I personally think that 'O' is Orsino, but I doubt he knew exactly what Quentin is doing. For example that he is a murderer. Maybe Orsino just didn't want to know, because he needed Quentin's research for the 'greater good' (in his opinion, not mine). Which is to fight the templars. Blood magic is the only kind of magic that templars cannot resist/nullify as far as I know. So the templars sort of force the mages that oppose them to use bloodmagic to have any chance at victory at all.

Personally I think Orsino was a bad First Enchanter, as Meredith was a bad Knight Commander. Both let their emotions keep them from doing their job properly. Orsino should never have allowed bloodmagic, it was his job to keep the Circle 'clean'. Meredith was too paranoic towards mages to be their shepard or keeper or whatever. Someone with an irrational aversion towards magic and mages shouldn't be in a position to judge them anyway.

Basically you can say both of them were too weak (willed) to fill their role and to solve the conflict. And that's basically what their personalities are about. Making alot of mistakes because they lacked honesty and courage.

There is none, he admits it in the final act before you fight him.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's true personality has nothing to do with the boss battle, which I believe the devs admitted was just kind of thrown in there. Ignore everything to do with that, it has no place in the story.

The problem with Orsino's relationship with Quentin and the "Harvester" is that it doesn't seem to make much sense in the context of the First Enchanter we're presented with, who is concerned with protecting the mages in the Circle of Kirkwall. How would Orsino even know Quentin, who may be from the Circle of Starkhaven (given Gascard's inquiry to the First Enchanter of Starkhaven's Circle of Magi)? Why would Orsino care about experiments that lead to the creation of a mindless creature that seems to serve no useful purpose?

It doesn't even make sense that Orsino would lose his mind if Hawke and his companions defeat the wave of templars, and Hawke and his moiety crew remain alive from the battle. Nor do I understand how Orsino remembered a blood magic ritual that can clearly only be done once (since it turns the mage who conducts the specific ritual into a mindless "super-abomination").

[Wulfram]

Orsino cares deeply about his Mages and will do anything to protect them. But he knows he is failing. He saw them die against the Qunari, and again in the Anullment. So he tries something Quentin's research makes him believe is possible. It goes wrong, and he becomes an Abomination.

(If you're supporting the mages, the game does a really bad job of conveying that you're losing, but that's clearly what is intended. There are dead mages lieing about before Orsino goes Harvester, and by the time you come face to face with Meredith there are loads of Templars and no mages.)

[GavrielKay]

I think one thing that is easy to forget is that the circle mages lead very constrained lives. They have very little to occupy themselves with. They are discouraged from having families and most of them can't travel. I'd guess under Meredith they are discouraged from just about everything - like gathering together or practicing spells.

With precious little to occupy their minds, why not embark on crazy research plans? My rationalization for Orsino is that he simply distracted himself and kept busy with learning everything he possibly could. He gathered knowledge the way a merchant gathers goods. Dealing with Quentin in the beginning was just something to do, something forbidden and exciting. Once he realized what Qunetin was actually up to and how bad it would look that he'd ever helped him, he backed off.

I can't blame him for pursuing knowledge, given that's just about all a circle mage is really able to do most of the time. The only thing that really needed work as far as game play goes is making the pro-mage ending feel more helpless so that there is a better excuse for Orsino to go Harvester.

I could imagine that after a lifetime of merely learning about wondrous and horrible magics that Orsino might decide in the last moments of his life to finally perform a powerful and forbidden spell.

[hero 2]

Orsino comes across as a sensible and wise figure at first, but when backed into a corner, he doesn't do the sensible and wise thing of submitting to his butchers without using blood magic and showing the Templars that mages are not all going to all become abominations when they've been pulled up about doing something embarrassing/bad. Instead he plays into the stereotype instead of becoming a martyr. In terms of Orsino's personality, the mad scientist thing serves (albeit only slightly) to justify his crazy shark-jumping later on in the plot.

[Cobra's_back]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Orsino's true personality has nothing to do with the boss battle, which I believe the devs admitted was just kind of thrown in there. Ignore everything to do with that, it has no place in the story.

The problem with Orsino's relationship with Quentin and the "Harvester" is that it doesn't seem to make much sense in the context of the First Enchanter we're presented with, who is concerned with protecting the mages in the Circle of Kirkwall. How would Orsino even know Quentin, who may be from the Circle of Starkhaven (given Gascard's inquiry to the First Enchanter of Starkhaven's Circle of Magi)? Why would Orsino care about experiments that lead to the creation of a mindless creature that seems to serve no useful purpose?

It doesn't even make sense that Orsino would lose his mind if Hawke and his companions defeat the wave of templars, and Hawke and his moiety crew remain alive from the battle. Nor do I understand how Orsino remembered a blood magic ritual that can clearly only be done once (since it turns the mage who conducts the specific ritual into a mindless "super-abomination").

Could this be poor writing? In some places the game just seems rushed and not well thought out.

[Fylimar]

As I wrote in the Orsino thread: I try to ignore the ending, because imho it's poorly written. And I don't think, that Orsino was a bad First Enchanter or a bad person - he had a very difficult job. If you took the time to talk to all people involved with the Circle - mages and tmeplars alike - you get to know, that terrible things are happening within this walls. The incident with Ser Alric and Ella comes to my mind or Ser Thrask, who didn't want his daugther to end up in the Circle, even though he would be able to see her there. And he practically begged my Hawke to help the Starkhaven mages in the cave, because he knew, that Meredith handpicked templars would just kill them all. When dealing with the Kirkwall Circle and thinking back of the Ferelden Circle, the latter seems like paradise in comparison. I really missed good old Gregoire.

And about the many insane mages and or blood mages: I agree with Foolsfolly, that the thinned veil is to blame. I had wished, I could bring the topic up with Meredith, Orsino and/or Elthina after finding the different 'Secret of Kirkwall' tomes. I really would have liked to know, how they reacted. And as a Lovecraft-fan myself, I would have liked to go into that topic deeper.

[TEWR]

The sad thing is that Orsino was a damn good First Enchanter, save for the endgame where the Plot stupidity kicks in.

Before Meredith, things were different as Thrask says. She officially became KC in 9:23 Dragon -- though one could say she always was KC when Perrin Threnhold was captured in 9:21 Dragon, even unofficially -- and Orsino became FE in at least 9:26 Dragon, and Thrask says that when she assumed her role her methods became harsher for the mages.

To sum it up: Meredith's reign was the problem from the very start.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 octobre 2011 - 12:54 .

[Sons of Horus]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Orsino was always a blood mage and took up the first enchanter rank as a cover for his activities ? Some parts of DA 2 may fit together better.