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[lobi]

Nothing I say about Thrask is baseless.

I think it is a spell from Tarohne's research which Orsino uses for the Harvester transformation.

Simply walking out of the gallows does not give much info to an Observer and why would a Templar know unless somebody gave him that info.
Did Hawks GPS give him away? "Turn left at the next intersection for secret bloodmage meeting beep".

The first group of conspiritors say they were expecting Hawk and name Orsino as the one who sent Hawk. They refuse to enter into a discussion and attack.
The next group are more surprised but have reason to panic as Keiran explains.

I do not believe Orsino put the pieces in place but rather saw the potential in circumstance and tried to exploit it for his own ends and perhaps getting a few Templars killed in the process.

Innocents were the Templars and normal mages Hawk slew. Hawk did not have to be there but chose to get involved by listening to Orsino and accepting the mission. Would they have died otherwise?

Starkhaven group is now Kirkwall Circle? Grace seemed to disagree with that assumption as did the others who remained in her company. Except for one that had a convieniant last minute change of heart, again.

Why would Orsino do this now? Hawk was becoming increasingly involved with the Circle. Hawk had just assisted the Knight Commander killing two bloodmages and capturing another. Orsino was right to be worried.

:EDIT: sorry Harvester is from Quintins research, sorry for not checking properly. I thought there was a connection with the fell grimiore and the Harvester. But Orsino would have known about Tarohne regardless after Hawk exposed her.
There may not have been collusion beyond Quinton.
 Both were engaged in forbidden practices and Hawk exposed them. Orsino had knowledge of that.

This possession of Quintons research speaks to a larger collection of such lore and may also explain why Orsino freaked so much when Knight Commander Stannard wanted to search the Tower.
As you may already have gathered I believe Orsino was always dabbling in blood magic as most elves do, it's part of their culture.

Modifié par lobi, 27 octobre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Heimdall]

What basis you've provided is shaky to say the least.

I'm not sure what changes the response, but when I recieved the quest from Orwino they thought Meredith had sent Hawke, not Orsino.

A Templar would have been able to see Hawke walk right out of Meredith's office. They would have been perfectly aware of the champion's allegiance and that the champion might seek them out. So yes, they were expecting Hawke. This in no way indicates that Orsino must have been orchestrating the whole thing.

They wouldn't have, instead you would have had blood mages and rogue Templars loose on the streets. Orsino is not going to be upset about a pro mage Hawke that supported him defending himself. He doesn't have a problem with blood mages and abominations dying either. His concern, in the case of the tower search and in every other case is for the innocent mages that would be punished for the any implication of blood magic real or imagined in paranoid Meredith's mind. For the record, all Circles have literature about blood magic, where do you think Jowan learned it?

As for the Starkhaven Mages, they were, whether they liked it or not, permanent residence of the Gallows. I'd say that makes them members of the Kirkwall Circle. Grace was a madwoman.

[lobi]

Once again you neglect to read what you are replying to. Not Orchestrate, Exploit.
Many died before Hawk reached the Starkhaven group. A group that did not regard themselves as part of any Circle.
Grace was a madwoman in the sense that she was very mad at Hawk. Hawk slew her Lover the Rebel leader and did not give her group the help they needed to escape the circle, Hawk did not even kill Thrask when asked to aid in their escape.
Perhaps when she becomes an abomination is evidence of her insanity. Of her danger to others, like Evilina, Thrask's daughter or Orsino.

Modifié par lobi, 27 octobre 2011 - 05:33 .

[Heimdall]

lobi wrote...

Once again you neglect to read what you are replying to. Not Orchestrate, Exploit.
Many died before Hawk reached the Starkhaven group. A group that did not regard themselves as part of any Circle.
Grace was a madwoman in the sense that she was very mad at Hawk. Hawk slew her Lover the Rebel leader and did not give her group the help they needed to escape the circle, Hawk did not even kill Thrask when asked to aid in their escape.
Perhaps when she becomes an abomination is evidence of her insanity. Of her danger to others, like Evilina, Thrask's daughter or Orsino.

He can't exploit something he only knows vaguely about.  Not to mention it makes no sense for him to knowingly interfere with a coup against Meredith.

My Hawke gave her all the help it was possible to give.  Unfortunately the Templars aren't incompetent at their job, contrary to popular belief, and a wandering group of apostates is more noticible tan some might assume.  Grace had no complaints about not killing Thrask once the other Templars were gone.  It doesn't make sense for her to hate Hawke one minute, be grateful for escaping the next, and then go back to hating Hawke years later for something Hawke had no part in and killing her lover (Which she didn't seem too broken up about at the time).  She was highly irrational at every turn, she killed the only Templar that was willing to work with her in a fit of petty rage.  She. was. insane.  The whole thing was poorly handled.
I'm not sure why your insisting on distinguishing the Starkhaven group as if they were the sole conspiritors.  Or that somehow the other mages and Templars are any more innocent.  They all attacked Hawke on sight.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Gervaise]

I am a bit too lazy to read through all 10 pages, so apologies if someone has mentioned this before. It has occurred to me that neither Meredith or Orsino questions the increasing number of Tranquiled mages appearing in Act 2, despite the fact that it is something that is being done illegally by Alric. So unless Anders is exaggerating about the number of new tranquil (which I must admit is a possibility since I never saw a large number of new ones in the courtyard), there are going to be plenty of mages who have passed their harrowing who are now tranquil.

Cullen informs us that Meredith is spending increasing amounts of time shut away in her office, but what about Cullen and in particular, what about Orsino? As First Enchanter he would be in charge of authorising harrowings and I would assume ensuring that young inexperienced mages weren't unduly coerced into accepting tranquility. So he ought also to know which ones were made tranquil and which weren't and has been in the Circle for a lot longer than Cullen. If, as Anders suggests, it is actually illegal to make post harrowing mages tranquil (though Origins suggests it is still done to apostates), that would surely be a serious enough matter to insist on an enquiry being made, particularly as both Meredith and the Divine had rejected the idea of universally making mages tranquil. A similar charge against Orsino could apply to the other abuses apparently being perpetrated by templars against mages. However, if it could just have been mentioned that Orsino had made complaints and they were ignored, that might go some way to accounting for why he is on such bad terms with Meredith and now refused to co-operate with her.

(Would also note that the conspirators attacking you in Hightown because they think you are there on behalf of Meredith, when Orsino sent you, is a bug. After I downloaded patch 1.03, they accuse you of spying on behalf of Orsino. Clearly they don't want either of them to know what they are doing, though whether this is because they don't trust Orsino, or whether they want it to be a case of plausible deniability should he be questioned, is anyone's guess)

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm also saying that you MUST make a deal with a demon to become a true blood mage. Adralla didn't neccesarily (we can't know), but since Orsino actually used blood magic, he must've done so.

If that was true, why can the Orlesian Warden ask the Baroness (when he thinks she is simply a mage) to teach him blood magic? At this point in the narrative, the Orlesian Warden doesn't know that the Baroness isn't human anymore, because Justice makes that revelation after the Orlesian Warden and Justice enter the real world.

That doesn't really change the fact that she may have been a demon then. What one thinks and what is true aren't always the same.

But even if she was a demon then, the Orlesian Warden doesn't know that. At this point in the narrative, all he sees is a mage. Even Anders' comments on her being a powerful mage, not a demon. What does it matter if the Baroness was a demon then? The Orlesian Warden doesn't know that, and he - a learned scholar of the arcane arts - is expecting a mage to teach him blood magic.

The point I'm trying to make is that blood magic isn't exclusive to demons teaching humans if a mage can ask another mage to teach him blood mage.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

...though mages are supposed to be able to call out demons for being.... well.... demons. So I'm unsure of what the deal is there.

Now if the Baroness was still her normal mage self in the Fade because of the nature of her ritual that trapped everyone that's a whole different story. Then it's a deal with a mage.

It doesn't matter whether she was a demon or not then, because the Orlesian Warden doesn't know that when he asks her to teach him blood mage. We see that a mage (the Orlesian Warden) is still expecting another mage (the Baroness) to teach him blood mage, in exchange for aiding her against the villagers and the Spirit of Justice.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a split between the inception of blood magic being taught to humanity: some argue it was Dumat, while others have speculated that the elves may have taught humans the art of blood magic. Neither inception involves demons as being the only possible means of learning blood magic. There's no indication that blood magic can only be taught by demons. In the Magi Origin, it's heavily implied that Jowan learned from the bloods on blood magic in the library. In Kirkwall, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident - from the power of her own blood - and his tone is serious when he asks this inquiry.

I'm leaning towards the Elves being the ones who taught the Tevinter Imperium about blood magic. Perhaps the Elves used the benign uses of blood magic or hadn't done much research into the school itself, but the Tevinter Imperium did to blood magic what Kirkwall's Circle did to Force Magic.

It's possible though that the Elves knew things about blood magic that the humans didn't since the Eluvian required blood magic to have its power cleansed and Zathrian's immortality is similar to that of his ancestors. Whether it's just similar in that they live for a long time or there's more to it we don't know.

Merrill seems to imply as much.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Merrill isn't exactly a neutral viewpoint on that matter.

[Heimdall]

Gervaise wrote...

I am a bit too lazy to read through all 10 pages, so apologies if someone has mentioned this before. It has occurred to me that neither Meredith or Orsino questions the increasing number of Tranquiled mages appearing in Act 2, despite the fact that it is something that is being done illegally by Alric. So unless Anders is exaggerating about the number of new tranquil (which I must admit is a possibility since I never saw a large number of new ones in the courtyard), there are going to be plenty of mages who have passed their harrowing who are now tranquil.

Cullen informs us that Meredith is spending increasing amounts of time shut away in her office, but what about Cullen and in particular, what about Orsino? As First Enchanter he would be in charge of authorising harrowings and I would assume ensuring that young inexperienced mages weren't unduly coerced into accepting tranquility. So he ought also to know which ones were made tranquil and which weren't and has been in the Circle for a lot longer than Cullen. If, as Anders suggests, it is actually illegal to make post harrowing mages tranquil (though Origins suggests it is still done to apostates), that would surely be a serious enough matter to insist on an enquiry being made, particularly as both Meredith and the Divine had rejected the idea of universally making mages tranquil. A similar charge against Orsino could apply to the other abuses apparently being perpetrated by templars against mages. However, if it could just have been mentioned that Orsino had made complaints and they were ignored, that might go some way to accounting for why he is on such bad terms with Meredith and now refused to co-operate with her.

(Would also note that the conspirators attacking you in Hightown because they think you are there on behalf of Meredith, when Orsino sent you, is a bug. After I downloaded patch 1.03, they accuse you of spying on behalf of Orsino. Clearly they don't want either of them to know what they are doing, though whether this is because they don't trust Orsino, or whether they want it to be a case of plausible deniability should he be questioned, is anyone's guess)

Frankly, I think the characters of Meredith and Orsino were both badly handled.  In this case, in terms of representation.  I will say that Hawke isn't really in a position to hear about any ignored complaints Orsino may have made (And knowing Meredith I don't see her takig his complaints seriously).  That was part of the problem I had with the story (Though overall I enjoyed it), Hawke was too removed from events up until the climax of each act.

[megski]

I think something important to remember about blood magic is that it's not necessarily a magic that comes from demons. I think people often turn to demons because they are very old and experienced in different magics. Demons are just an easy method of instruction, especially if you're in an environment that doesn't have info on the subject readily available.