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[LobselVith8]

Sons of Horus wrote...

Has anyone considered the possibility that Orsino was always a blood mage and took up the first enchanter rank as a cover for his activities ? Some parts of DA 2 may fit together better.

I don't think assuming that Orsino was evil from the start would do much to address the problems with the narrative. Even if Orsino was an evil blood mage from day one, how does he know Quentin - who may be from the Circle of Starkhaven (based on the note found in Gascard's mansion)? Why would he care about an experiment that creates a mindless husk of flesh that seems to serve no practical purpose, except to provide the developers the convenience of re-using the old Harvester model from the Golems of Amgarrak DLC? Why would Orsino even lose his mind when Hawke and his moiety crew are still standing, and killed the wave of templars who invaded, much less when there are no templars around and he is standing next to Hawke and the Circle mages?

[Sons of Horus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

Has anyone considered the possibility that Orsino was always a blood mage and took up the first enchanter rank as a cover for his activities ? Some parts of DA 2 may fit together better.

I don't think assuming that Orsino was evil from the start would do much to address the problems with the narrative. Even if Orsino was an evil blood mage from day one, how does he know Quentin - who may be from the Circle of Starkhaven (based on the note found in Gascard's mansion)? Why would he care about an experiment that creates a mindless husk of flesh that seems to serve no practical purpose, except to provide the developers the convenience of re-using the old Harvester model from the Golems of Amgarrak DLC? Why would Orsino even lose his mind when Hawke and his moiety crew are still standing, and killed the wave of templars who invaded, much less when there are no templars around and he is standing next to Hawke and the Circle mages?

That what I’m saying, we know too little about what was really up with Orsino because we dealt with him as an outsider. He could have been the one to teach Huon Blood magic for example then set him lose to cut losses, or he could have been actively stopping blood mages secretly. We are only given snippets into what was really going on in the Kirkwall circle.

As for Meredith she was promoted because she was proactive in her decisions, after all she did kill the previous viscount who was apparently a tyrant. Its easy to see why she would start stepping over her bounds if she saw the first enchanter doing nothing to stop all the circle mages running away or performing blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

Sons of Horus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think assuming that Orsino was evil from the start would do much to address the problems with the narrative. Even if Orsino was an evil blood mage from day one, how does he know Quentin - who may be from the Circle of Starkhaven (based on the note found in Gascard's mansion)? Why would he care about an experiment that creates a mindless husk of flesh that seems to serve no practical purpose, except to provide the developers the convenience of re-using the old Harvester model from the Golems of Amgarrak DLC? Why would Orsino even lose his mind when Hawke and his moiety crew are still standing, and killed the wave of templars who invaded, much less when there are no templars around and he is standing next to Hawke and the Circle mages?

That what I’m saying, we know too little about what was really up with Orsino because we dealt with him as an outsider. He could have been the one to teach Huon Blood magic for example then set him lose to cut losses, or he could have been actively stopping blood mages secretly. We are only given snippets into what was really going on in the Kirkwall circle.

As for Meredith she was promoted because she was proactive in her decisions, after all she did kill the previous viscount who was apparently a tyrant. Its easy to see why she would start stepping over her bounds if she saw the first enchanter doing nothing to stop all the circle mages running away or performing blood magic.

So his master plan was to make Huon become an insane idiot and to have Quentin investigate an irreversible "Super-Abomination" ritual that serves no practical or logical purpose?

[Sons of Horus]

No I was just thinking he may have been used as a scapegoat to throw Meredith off. As for the irreversible "Super-Abomination" ritual, It may be concisely controlled by him. If so then he was merely using Hawke and his allies for the weapons test. After all he doesn’t know about Meredith’s idol, and abomination this big could crush the knight commander normally and her templars.This is all just speculation mind you.

There could be dozen of reasons why these events happened, we need a dlc or a novel to hammer out the details.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:10 .

[cihimi]

Who the hell cares if Orsino has a personality or not. He might as well be the village idiot playng with blood magic. In the end he choose to become an abomination (believing it's a justification for the hurt feelings and emo crap). This decision forced Hawke's hand. And we all know what Hawke does to big bad bosses.

[Cobra's_back]

cihimi wrote...

Who the hell cares if Orsino has a personality or not. He might as well be the village idiot playng with blood magic. In the end he choose to become an abomination (believing it's a justification for the hurt feelings and emo crap). This decision forced Hawke's hand. And we all know what Hawke does to big bad bosses.

Totally agree.

He did look like the village idiot in my game. Hawke decides to save mages and Orsino goes abomination making it harder for Hawke to save anybody.
 

[LobselVith8]

Sons of Horus wrote...

No I was just thinking he may have been used as a scapegoat to throw Meredith off. As for the irreversible "Super-Abomination" ritual, It may be concisely controlled by him. If so then he was merely using Hawke and his allies for the weapons test. After all he doesn’t know about Meredith’s idol, and abomination this big could crush the knight commander normally and her templars.This is all just speculation mind you.

There could be dozen of reasons why these events happened, we need a dlc or a novel to hammer out the details.

I think the problems with the narrative are difficult to explain away, even with a novel or additional story in DLC. Orsino's actions make little sense, and even less so when you factor in that cosplayer saying that Gaider told her group that the reason Orsino became a Harvester was to add in another "boss battle."

[Sons of Horus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

No I was just thinking he may have been used as a scapegoat to throw Meredith off. As for the irreversible "Super-Abomination" ritual, It may be concisely controlled by him. If so then he was merely using Hawke and his allies for the weapons test. After all he doesn’t know about Meredith’s idol, and abomination this big could crush the knight commander normally and her templars.This is all just speculation mind you.

There could be dozen of reasons why these events happened, we need a dlc or a novel to hammer out the details.

I think the problems with the narrative are difficult to explain away, even with a novel or additional story in DLC. Orsino's actions make little sense, and even less so when you factor in that cosplayer saying that Gaider told her group that the reason Orsino became a Harvester was to add in another "boss battle."

Well its happened before in the lore though, though i don't disagree with the another boss battle idea. Codex on abominations clearly stated this. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Abomination

[EmperorSahlertz]

That they wanted another boss battle is reason for the Harvester. That is not to say that Orsino was intended to die either way. It would probably just have been a cutscene in which the Templars break through and cut him down. So since Orsino was (probably) intended to die from the start, there was potential to make his death more "epic", if you will.

[LobselVith8]

Sons of Horus wrote...

Well its happened before in the lore though, though i don't disagree with the another boss battle idea. Codex on abominations clearly stated this. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Abomination

I'm not speculating about the developers making Orsino into a 'Super-Abomination' simply for another boss battle, this is what was said by one of the cosplayers who spoke with David Gaider here.

Xelestial wrote:

"- Orsino was originally not really supposed to be a boss battle if you sided with the mages, though there would be a point where you learned that he was bffs with Quentin. He kind of implied that you could have then chosen to fight him, but basically that the Orsino battle was not originally there. The only reason why Orsino turns is for gameplay reasons. (They wanted another boss fight.)"

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That they wanted another boss battle is reason for the Harvester. That is not to say that Orsino was intended to die either way. It would probably just have been a cutscene in which the Templars break through and cut him down. So since Orsino was (probably) intended to die from the start, there was potential to make his death more "epic", if you will.

I remember reading that the original idea was that it would be left to the players to decide his fate after learning of his involvement with Quentin, but apparently a small minority of players who all killed him made Bioware make him turn on the player all the time.

So Bioware took a minority's personal choices over the majority of players and removed a big choice from DAII.

[Gervaise]

It seems to me it would have made more sense in the mage ending for Orsino to admit his connection to Quentin and then if Hawke chose to kill him, turn into the Havester, or alternatively have him see Meredith covered in the blood of the mages she killed on the way to the Hall and freak out trying to get to her, not realising he would lose total control.

In reality they were just lazy, they had put in the cut scene for the Templar ending, when he does do it when confronted by Meredith, and re-used it for the mage one when it made no logical sense to do so and didn't fit with what had immediately had gone before, i.e. Hawke and company had just saved his mages so there were no dead bodies in the immediate vicinity to use (except Templar ones), there had been no hint when we were gathered beforehand that he had arranged a suicide pact with them, and in fact they all ran away after he transformed.

I don't really mind if Orsino wanted to go crazy - that seemed to be the general theme in Kirkwall - but turning into the Harvester wasn't that impressive, just gross. A spectacular magic display, fire balls in all directions, tearing open the veil and letting through an army of demons, opening his veins and causing everyone excrutiating agony on a much grander scale than achieved by earlier blood mages - these are what I would expect from a First Enchanter. Or if they wanted a different battle, how about him being taken over by a hunger demon and becoming an uber vampire, with magic thrown in for good measure. I didn't find the Harvester battle challenging, just tedious, particularly as most of the time I was thinking - what did he do this for?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That they wanted another boss battle is reason for the Harvester. That is not to say that Orsino was intended to die either way. It would probably just have been a cutscene in which the Templars break through and cut him down. So since Orsino was (probably) intended to die from the start, there was potential to make his death more "epic", if you will.

I remember reading that the original idea was that it would be left to the players to decide his fate after learning of his involvement with Quentin, but apparently a small minority of players who all killed him made Bioware make him turn on the player all the time.

So Bioware took a minority's personal choices over the majority of players and removed a big choice from DAII.

If only a minority uses the option, it usually isn't forced. So your data is probably wrong, since playtesting is supposed to make sure of such things. If however only a minority ever chose to spare him, it would be a different matter.

With Leandra it was only a minority who ever chose to let her die, but BioWare was unhappy with the feel of the quest if you saved her, so they decided to cut it.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That they wanted another boss battle is reason for the Harvester. That is not to say that Orsino was intended to die either way. It would probably just have been a cutscene in which the Templars break through and cut him down. So since Orsino was (probably) intended to die from the start, there was potential to make his death more "epic", if you will.

I remember reading that the original idea was that it would be left to the players to decide his fate after learning of his involvement with Quentin, but apparently a small minority of players who all killed him made Bioware make him turn on the player all the time.

So Bioware took a minority's personal choices over the majority of players and removed a big choice from DAII.

If only a minority uses the option, it usually isn't forced. So your data is probably wrong, since playtesting is supposed to make sure of such things. If however only a minority ever chose to spare him, it would be a different matter.

With Leandra it was only a minority who ever chose to let her die, but BioWare was unhappy with the feel of the quest if you saved her, so they decided to cut it.

no no what I'm saying is something else (assuming I read your post correctly). I may have worded my post poorly.

Say 20 people out of 25 all killed him. That's the majority within the playtesting group yes, but it's a minority compared to the number of players worldwide (obviously). I'm pretty sure that's what Bioware did. They took the 20 people as being representative of everyone out there and so removed the option to forgive Orsino because they wanted another boss fight.

The thing that really irritates me though is that I can't roleplay a Hawke who doesn't hold any malice against Orsino and forgives him because Bioware removed that option from me.

I can roleplay a Hawke that forgives him afterwards, but that's not the same thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You can forgive Orsino all you want. Orsino however, can't forgive himself what he has brought on the Circle, and/or he simply lost hope at the end. Orsino turning into a harvester doesn't prevent Hawke to forgive Orsino, it only prevents him from surviving. It also prevents the end from turning stale.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can forgive Orsino all you want. Orsino however, can't forgive himself what he has brought on the Circle, and/or he simply lost hope at the end. Orsino turning into a harvester doesn't prevent Hawke to forgive Orsino, it only prevents him from surviving. It also prevents the end from turning stale.

Except Orsino didn't bring anything on the Circle, nor was all hope lost (considering mages were still alive and fled at the sight of the Harvester). Hawke can curbstomp the Templars and all the mages die. This is a failing of both DAO and DAII when other games have been able to take into account whether NPCs live or die in certain scenarios.

The first that leaps to mind is the Fire Emblem series, but that's a different genre game. Still, the fact that it can be done there should also be able to mean that Bioware could do something similar.

Besides, the ending becomes meaningless if it's the same outcome on either playthrough. Someone betrays you while the other person is a boss that makes a reasonable amount of sense for why they're attacking you.

It's not grey and it never was. It's not mature and it never was. It's simply a game where I don't give a **** about the story because there is no good story told. Meredith becomes the big bad evil of the game no matter what, driven by a mystical force that actually could've helped to make the situation grey, but instead brings it to being black and white.

[Sir JK]

In my humble opinion, the primary problem with Orsino as a boss/blood mage is that there's virtually nothing leading up to it. Nothing to transition from the reasonable if a bit powerless mage to a desperate blood mage. It comes quite of the blue. Orsino as a whole goes past a large part of the plot unnoticeable too, which also a pity. That the first time we even hear of him ingame is in Feynriel's dream. Unlike Meredith who had been presented very well prior to meeting her. She's not in the plot as such any more than Orsino is. But most of us have a quite good understanding who she is the very first time we meet her. And both the sword and the rite of annulment makes a lot of sense given the lead up.
Orsino's characterisation as a whole suffers a lot from the limited exposure he has. Let alone that there's virtually nothing suggesting he even has skeletons in the closet.

I mean, I am all for him having the skeletons. Even these in particular (though I agree it was annoying when he turned monster. Especially since I reloaded to make sure -all- mages survived).
But I'd like to know there's a closet in the first place.

[EmperorSahlertz]

His rebellious ways are just as much to blame for the state of the Circle as Meredith. Orsino was from day one determined to oppose Meredith in almost every way possible. The situation of Kirkwall is a concoction of a very volatile nature. Both Meredith and Orsino are to blame, to deny either is simply biased.

And while yes, BioWare could've made a cutscene picturing the mages dying at the Templars' hands, they didn't. And we just have to deal with it. That is not a detraction of the story, but rather a failure of immersion. Simply put gameplay took precedence over the story in that one encounter.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

His rebellious ways are just as much to blame for the state of the Circle as Meredith. Orsino was from day one determined to oppose Meredith in almost every way possible. The situation of Kirkwall is a concoction of a very volatile nature. Both Meredith and Orsino are to blame, to deny either is simply biased.

And while yes, BioWare could've made a cutscene picturing the mages dying at the Templars' hands, they didn't. And we just have to deal with it. That is not a detraction of the story, but rather a failure of immersion. Simply put gameplay took precedence over the story in that one encounter.

Not really. Meredith became Knight Commander officially 3 years prior to Orsino's rise to being First Enchanter, and Thrask says that when she became Knight-Commander she immediately restricted mages' rights.

She was the source of Kirkwall's problems all along. Orsino was simply trying to fight against her saying "This isn't what the Circle is for! You cannot take away all of our rights simply for being mages!". That's trying to make things better because things are not the way they're supposed to be. Meredith was violating Chantry law and Elthina let her get away with it.

Orsino argued with Meredith and it isn't a crime to argue with Meredith, however strongly Orsino got. He never once took part in a violent uprising against Meredith and he didn't want the Chantry abolished or the Templars gone. He understood the necessity of having the Templars and was even working with Elthina on peaceful solutions. Meredith however wasn't.

The state of the Circle can be traced back to one thing: the thin Veil. The fact that something like that goes unnoticed by thousands of mages when mages are able to sense a thin Veil is a very big plot hole. The fact that Elthina can remark after Repentance that the Veil is thin yet nothing is done to help the mages is a clear sign that the state of the Circle has nothing to do with the mages themselves, but the Chantry and Templars and the thin Veil.

The nobility -- that is, those who weren't acting like lemmings after the Champion speaks -- remark that the people protecting the mages are taking a risk for a reason: to protect an ideal.

Orsino was trying to make the situation better. Meredith however wasn't since she was clearly bat**** insane by the time of Act III's beginning. Granted she was always insane, but the lyrium idol just exacerbated that insanity.

[Gervaise]

Meredith wasn't always insane. She was a hard line templar but that doesn't make her insane. Insanity implies lack of rational thought and much of the time her arguments do make a lot of sense. It is also noticeable that for a person who is meant to be hard line, she seems remarkably lenient with people if requested to do so.

The problems really start when she stops listening to other people and becomes more reclusive - Cullen mentions this at the beginning of Act 2. (This is as a result of the idol but withdrawal and seclusion is also a sign of mental problems on its own but the folk of Thedas don't know this) Then in Act 3 Sebastian says that she has stopped even taking advice from Elthina. Even in Act 3 at times when you try and reason with her, they show her as almost responding and then her paranoia kicks back in. Now given the amount of stress she is under, as Cullen rightly points out, she could have cracked even without the sword. At times one wonders if the reason no one steps in and relieves her of her duty is not just that they're afraid of her but that they know its a thankless task and no one else wants to take it on. Orsino probably suffers from the same problems but it comes out in a different way. We know he got the job because no one else wanted it. The fact that they have offices on the opposite side of the corridor to each other probably didn't help matters.

It wasn't just the thin veil that was causing the problems either as that text in Legacy implies. In some ways if anyone is to blame for the situation in Kirkwall it is the Grey Wardens and their damned secrecy. If Feynriel can sense the distress of a girl thousands of miles from where he is and take action to prevent her rape, it seems likely that an ancient Tevinter Magister, even in a dormant (dream) state, could have a profound effect on those in the immediate area.

So it is very difficult to ascribe blame to one or two individuals, when the whole area is effectively cursed and the lyrium idol is acting like a giant aerial.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If you want to claim Meredith as the sole reason for the tensions in Kirkwall, you need to stick with it, and not continue on to blame everything BUT Orsino. The very fact that Orsino kept arguing with Meredith is part of the reason for the tensions in Kirkwall. Granted Kirkwall would still have had problems with a "weaker" (or just more subtle) First Enchanter, but it would also have had problems with another Knight-Commander, which partly shows that even Orsino was part of the problem. Kirkwall is the problem, not any individual character.

[Northern Sun]

I'd like to say(don't know if it's been brought up already) that even if Orsino knew and supported Quinten's necromancy research, he may not have known that Quinten was stalking and murdering women to get his test subjects until after that information became public, nor known about Quinten's plan to throw together a imitation of his dead wife.
As far as Orsino knew, Quinten could have just been following Hawke and gathering all the dead bandits that Hawke leaves in his/her wake.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wouldn't make his condoning of necromancy any better....

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you want to claim Meredith as the sole reason for the tensions in Kirkwall, you need to stick with it, and not continue on to blame everything BUT Orsino. The very fact that Orsino kept arguing with Meredith is part of the reason for the tensions in Kirkwall. Granted Kirkwall would still have had problems with a "weaker" (or just more subtle) First Enchanter, but it would also have had problems with another Knight-Commander, which partly shows that even Orsino was part of the problem. Kirkwall is the problem, not any individual character.

Okay, Meredith and the thin Veil were the reasons for the tensions, but Orsino wasn't. Meredith however was the biggest problem. Her measures would drive the mages to desperate measures, and that's where the thin Veil would kick in.

And no, with another Knight Commander there wouldn't have been these types of problems. The thin Veil would still be a problem, but the new Knight Commander wouldn't crack down on the mages like Meredith did unless he was like her in his view of mages.

But Thrask remarks that before Meredith -- which means with the Knight Commander before her -- things were different for the Circle. Tobrius also remarks that the Circle and the Templars were better back then.

[EmperorSahlertz]

A weak Knight-Commander would lead to the mages believing they were in control, which might embolden them to circumvent the Circle and its laws. Especially with the state of Kirkwall's veil.

There is no doubt that the Templars were different before Meredith, that doesn't mean the situation was better, just less tense. Given the amount of Blood mages in Kirkwall, a hardliner like Meredith is needed to keep the mages under control. Just like a hardliner like Orsino is needed to make sure the mages aren't trambled. As you may see, these two aren't compatible, certainly not when taken to extremes like Meredith and Orsino. Moderate Knight-Commanders and First Enchanters wouldn't cut it, becasue then the rank and file would get out of control faster.