True, but I personally think there's a difference between a man who supports what he assumes is a body snatcher vs. a man who knowingly supports a serial killer.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Wouldn't make his condoning of necromancy any better....
Modifié par Northern Sun, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:01 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A weak Knight-Commander would lead to the mages believing they were in control, which might embolden them to circumvent the Circle and its laws. Especially with the state of Kirkwall's veil.
There is no doubt that the Templars were different before Meredith, that doesn't mean the situation was better, just less tense. Given the amount of Blood mages in Kirkwall, a hardliner like Meredith is needed to keep the mages under control. Just like a hardliner like Orsino is needed to make sure the mages aren't trambled. As you may see, these two aren't compatible, certainly not when taken to extremes like Meredith and Orsino. Moderate Knight-Commanders and First Enchanters wouldn't cut it, becasue then the rank and file would get out of control faster.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:58 .
Modifié par nerdage, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:04 .
There is no doubt that the Templars were different before Meredith, that doesn't mean the situation was better, just less tense. Given the amount of Blood mages in Kirkwall, a hardliner like Meredith is needed to keep the mages under control. Just like a hardliner like Orsino is needed to make sure the mages aren't trambled. As you may see, these two aren't compatible, certainly not when taken to extremes like Meredith and Orsino. Moderate Knight-Commanders and First Enchanters wouldn't cut it, becasue then the rank and file would get out of control faster.
Varic
The harder she squeezed, the more the mages resisted. The more they resisted, the harder she squeezed.
No sarcasm necesary. Mages are partly to blame, particularly groups like the Resolutionists.dragonflight288 wrote...
You can defend Meredith and the templars all you want because by the ancestors mages could never possibly be innocent of the supposed tension (sarcasm, by the way.)
I'd think a coward would smile and nod to Meredith like pretty much everyone else who isn't militantly separatist, and without resorting to militant action I can't imagine how else he could remove Meredith without the support of either the nobility or the chantry.Dave of Canada wrote...
He's a coward trying to cover his own hide in fear for his life, trying to play himself as the reasonable victim in the hopes that Elthina or the nobility would interfere on his behalf.
nerdage wrote...
I'd think a coward would smile and nod to Meredith like pretty much everyone else who isn't militantly separatist, and without resorting to militant action I can't imagine how else he could remove Meredith without the support of either the nobility or the chantry.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:31 .
He wasn't acting panicked, he was acting outraged that Meredith would do that, as most anyone would be if someone demanded to search their home without any proof of anything.Dave of Canada wrote...
nerdage wrote...
I'd think a coward would smile and nod to Meredith like pretty much everyone else who isn't militantly separatist, and without resorting to militant action I can't imagine how else he could remove Meredith without the support of either the nobility or the chantry.
He'd smile and nod if it wasn't for the fact that he was only panicing when Meredith wanted to search the tower for blood magic, something which he -did- have in his possessions.
In act 2 she wasn't being driven to the extremes of paranoia by the idol.Dave of Canada wrote...
Only in Act 3 when it's starting. In Act 2, he's not doing much.
So basically Meredith had been ruling Kirkwall for far longer than the end of act 2, however only by the start of act 3 had she amassed enough power, to pretty much have a "get out of jail free card" when it came to mages (since the only ones who could oppose her were the nobles, which she had cowed, or Elthina, which was getting old). So Orsino only spoke out, when he could no longer rely on someone else to defend him, and his rebellious ways.dragonflight288 wrote...
There is no doubt that the Templars were different before Meredith, that doesn't mean the situation was better, just less tense. Given the amount of Blood mages in Kirkwall, a hardliner like Meredith is needed to keep the mages under control. Just like a hardliner like Orsino is needed to make sure the mages aren't trambled. As you may see, these two aren't compatible, certainly not when taken to extremes like Meredith and Orsino. Moderate Knight-Commanders and First Enchanters wouldn't cut it, becasue then the rank and file would get out of control faster.
Perhaps I should quote something in the game, at the beginning of Act 3.Varic
The harder she squeezed, the more the mages resisted. The more they resisted, the harder she squeezed.
You can defend Meredith and the templars all you want because by the ancestors mages could never possibly be innocent of the supposed tension (sarcasm, by the way.) But Meredith was a hard liner who wouldn't compromise the least bit. In the beginning of Act 3, she wanted to make an example of Orsino, which probably meant kill or tranquilization, and the only reason she didn't give him a traitors death (and she was accusing him of treason) was because Elthina stopped her.
And Orsino wasn't preaching that mages were being treated unjustly. He wasn't saying templars are evil and need to leave. He was telling the crowd that Meredith had been acting Viscount for three years and not only is she not allowed to do that as a templar, but she was also not letting any noble in the city step forward to become the new viscount. She was abusing political power she should never of had to begin with.
I think it's important in the mage vs templar debates to keep in mind Meredith was in charge of more than just the templars at this point in the story. Heck, even when Hawke is getting off the boat into Kirkwall for the first time, we are told that Meredith is telling the city guards what to do and Dumar stayed out of her way.
And Aveline is pushing templars out her door constantly in Act 3 because the templars are trying to remove her from her position and take control of the guard directly.
Meredith was not just pressing down the mages, but the nobles and guards as well.
Still before the subject of searching the tower comes up as far as I can tell, I got the impression it's only when she suggested it that he stormed off to the grand cleric. And he does argue with her a bit at the end of act two during the Qunari attack, to the point where he won't accept her command (I assume siding with Meredith does shut him up during that argument, but I've only ever tried leading myself so I don't know), so he's not exactly compliant even three years prior.Dave of Canada wrote...
Only in Act 3 when it's starting. In Act 2, he's not doing much.
Modifié par nerdage, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:42 .
There was enough proof of rebellious mages in the Gallows to warrant a search of the quarters based on suspecion alone. Orsino was only "outraged" at the investigation because he feared for his own sorry hide. If he and his fellows had truly nothing to hide, then he wouldn't have denied the search to begin with now would he?Lord Aesir wrote...
He wasn't acting panicked, he was acting outraged that Meredith would do that, as most anyone would be if someone demanded to search their home without any proof of anything.Dave of Canada wrote...
nerdage wrote...
I'd think a coward would smile and nod to Meredith like pretty much everyone else who isn't militantly separatist, and without resorting to militant action I can't imagine how else he could remove Meredith without the support of either the nobility or the chantry.
He'd smile and nod if it wasn't for the fact that he was only panicing when Meredith wanted to search the tower for blood magic, something which he -did- have in his possessions.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There was enough proof of rebellious mages in the Gallows to warrant a search of the quarters based on suspicion alone.
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
I supported the mages, but Orsino was a fundamentally weak man. He didn't have the moral strength to take out Quentin, the political sense to realize how detrimental that kind of research is to the public perception of mages, the common sense to realize how utterly creepy necromancy in general is, nor the strength of personality to stand toe to toe with Meredith. Instead, he's a resigned submissive who is too weak to lay down the law with his own people and too weak to represent them to the Templars. The mages deserve better than him.
Dave of Canada wrote...
nerdage wrote...
I'd think a coward would smile and nod to Meredith like pretty much everyone else who isn't militantly separatist, and without resorting to militant action I can't imagine how else he could remove Meredith without the support of either the nobility or the chantry.
He'd smile and nod if it wasn't for the fact that he was only panicing when Meredith wanted to search the tower for blood magic, something which he -did- have in his possessions.
Modifié par lobi, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:04 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There was enough proof of rebellious mages in the Gallows to warrant a search of the quarters based on suspecion alone. Orsino was only "outraged" at the investigation because he feared for his own sorry hide. If he and his fellows had truly nothing to hide, then he wouldn't have denied the search to begin with now would he?Lord Aesir wrote...
He wasn't acting panicked, he was acting outraged that Meredith would do that, as most anyone would be if someone demanded to search their home without any proof of anything.Dave of Canada wrote...
nerdage wrote...
I'd think a coward would smile and nod to Meredith like pretty much everyone else who isn't militantly separatist, and without resorting to militant action I can't imagine how else he could remove Meredith without the support of either the nobility or the chantry.
He'd smile and nod if it wasn't for the fact that he was only panicing when Meredith wanted to search the tower for blood magic, something which he -did- have in his possessions.
Wrong the rebellion was not quelled. There was a brief respite because Hawk had taken out the Starkhaven faction, but the original corruption, the one Meredith was sent to cleanse remained. Did you not walk into a room full of Templars and Mages worshiping a desire Demon in the endgame?The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Wrong. The rebellion was quelled -- by plot stupidity, but nevertheless quelled -- and there were no more rebellions or suspicious mages and Templars.
There was no legitimate cause for the search to be called for.
Modifié par lobi, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:07 .
...Play the mission again. They all assume you're working for Meredith even if you were sent by Orsino. What do you really think Orsino had to gain by knowingly stopping a conspiracy to remove the biggest threat to him, Meredith?lobi wrote...
Meredith didn't just crack down on the Mages, the Templars were brought into line also. She was sent to Kirkwall to put an end to Corruption. Those used to the status quo were bound to rebel. No more bribes from nobles, no more blatant Lyrium abuse, Satanic orgies- gone.
Of course that criminal scum Orsino tried to undermine her. Remember that mission where Orsino sends you to Hightown? You arrive only to see normal mages and templars working together. "We know your spying for Orsino!" they shout.
Modifié par Lord Aesir, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:11 .
lobi wrote...
Wrong the rebellion was not quelled. There was a brief respite because Hawk had taken out the Starkhaven faction, but the original corruption, the one Meredith was sent to cleanse remained. Did you not walk into a room full of Templars and Mages worshiping a desire Demon in the endgame?The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Wrong. The rebellion was quelled -- by plot stupidity, but nevertheless quelled -- and there were no more rebellions or suspicious mages and Templars.
There was no legitimate cause for the search to be called for.
That's what happens when you stir up abject terror in a place with such a thin veil. The annulment caused more mages to turn into abominations than any existing corruption.lobi wrote...
Wrong the rebellion was not quelled. There was a brief respite because Hawk had taken out the Starkhaven faction, but the original corruption, the one Meredith was sent to cleanse remained. Did you not walk into a room full of Templars and Mages worshiping a desire Demon in the endgame?The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Wrong. The rebellion was quelled -- by plot stupidity, but nevertheless quelled -- and there were no more rebellions or suspicious mages and Templars.
There was no legitimate cause for the search to be called for.
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