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[Xilizhra]

Who's to say what goes on in that nutcases head, but as I see it, she has all the right to do a search and Orsino should have let her, unless he was scared she would find something.

So you could say. It doesn't matter now, of course.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...
He does it because he is scared. The only person who could stop the RoA was just blowen to bits, he knows that Meredith now has all the power, he just didn't expect that she had always plan to do the RoA for awhile. Even a Hawke who helps the mages does not fully stop the Rite, it still happens and alot of damage is done with many people dead. Why do you think Orsino is pissed off at Anders?

You interpret it that way.

I say mine's just as valid.

From doing 'Best Served Cold' it seemed as if Orsino was clueless to what all his mages were doing.

[lobi]

@ Asir I played it four days ago and reloaded the scene just to be sure because it struck me as strange. I quote "We know your spying for Orsino" plain as day.
Granted the amount of blood flowing through the Tevinter Design would have weakened the veil. But every Senior mage in a Circle is Harrowed.They have faced Demons in the Fade itself. How was it that Keiren could resist possession. Remember what Sebastian say's to Lady Harrimans daughter about Desire Demons. Marithari was not forced. Remember Conner? Demons must be summoned sundered veil or no.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I still find it funny how he keeps on saying there is no corruption in the circle yet at the end of the game, he proves Meredith, while a nutcase, was right.

*claps* Good job Orsino.

That is pretty much the whole point of the situation in the endgame. Many does have a hard time accepying that they were fools for trusting Orsino though.

Oh please. The game -- and more specifically the endgame -- wasn't morally grey and that's what Bioware was aiming for it seems. Bioware failed to characterize Orsino or Meredith properly and then have them turn on us in such a gloriously idiotic fashion that I can barely stomach the game.

The decision you make is grey. Wether you end up killing both Meredith and Orsino or not, does not make the decision any less grey. It only reduces the variability of the outcome.
These discussion wouldn't exist if it wasn't grey. Neither side is 100% undeniably right. You agree with the mages, I don't. Neither of us are wrong in our opinions.

[Herr Uhl]

jlb524 wrote...

From doing 'Best Served Cold' it seemed as if Orsino was clueless to what all his mages were doing.

So he is the Irving of DA2? Both are pretty bad at their jobs that way. Gregoire and Irving seemed more competent than their DA2 counterparts though.

[megski]

Herr Uhl wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

From doing 'Best Served Cold' it seemed as if Orsino was clueless to what all his mages were doing.

So he is the Irving of DA2? Both are pretty bad at their jobs that way. Gregoire and Irving seemed more competent than their DA2 counterparts though.

At least they could have a civil conversation. 

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I still find it funny how he keeps on saying there is no corruption in the circle yet at the end of the game, he proves Meredith, while a nutcase, was right.

*claps* Good job Orsino.

He never once said the Circle wasn't corrupt. He said he'd help the Knight Commander look for blood mages if she'd revoke the RoA and he only took issue with the fact that Meredith was going to perform a search of the tower for no legitimate reason.

She had no probable cause to do so.

He was refusing to let her search. why would he do that if the circle was not tainted and he was not hiding something? This is the same wacko who killed a couple of mages to become a Harvester.

Also Meredith has been waiting to do teh rite for awhile, the Chantry bang was her excuse to do it, and Orsino did not help the matter being a blood mage, helping blood mages and keeping a killer in hiding.

Because even though it's true, acquiescing to that will only strengthen Meredith -- who is just barely holding back on calling for an RoA that she went over her superior's head to call for before the Chantry went KABLOOEY -- into thinking she can get away with it.

Yes there are blood mages. Yes despite blood magic not being inherently evil this is a bad thing. But this means squat considering Meredith had already asked for the RoA to be given to her by the frickin' Divine when Elthina said NO.

Do you honestly think Meredith is going to give an honest account of what's happening? Because if you thought she sent this:

Dear Divine Justinia V,

I have been tightening my hold on the mages as well as usurping the power of the city so much that they've been fighting me back and want me removed. They don't want the Templars removed or the Chantry. Just me. I would really like for an Annulment to be allowed.

It also probably doesn't help that I purchased an idol of what appears to be pure lyrium and I fashioned it into a lyriumsaber. This lyriumsaber seems to be driving me even more insane. I'm even beginning to think the Champion of Kirkwall is evil. My insanity knows no bounds!

So again, I ask for the permission and authority to call for the Right of Annulment.

Your loving and insane Knight-Commander of Kirkwall's Templars,

Meredith Stannard

then you're sorely mistaken. She's going to make up a bunch of crap to try and justify what she's doing.

Her letter that she sent happened prior to any of the Mage quests that Hawke did, so she wouldn't have been able to talk about these things because they haven't happened yet.

David Gaider said long ago that the Templars are a military order. Meredith ignored the orders of her CO of sorts (Elthina) and went over her head to receive permission for something.

This is actually really similar to the character Colonel Lacey in M*A*S*H. He was a glory hound who beneath his prettied up words to his troops only wanted to take a hill. When he was told by his higher-ups that the plan he proposed was not authorized because the higher-ups didn't want any offensives to be launched, do you know what he did?

"Well I have to send scouts, and scouts will draw fire. And then it'll be a defensive. I can take that hill!"

He was deliberately going out of his way to ignore his superior's orders so that he could do what he personally wanted.

[Mr.House]

Both Orsino and Meredith where playing with fire tbh, then Anders decides to go SURPRISE.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I still find it funny how he keeps on saying there is no corruption in the circle yet at the end of the game, he proves Meredith, while a nutcase, was right.

*claps* Good job Orsino.

That is pretty much the whole point of the situation in the endgame. Many does have a hard time accepying that they were fools for trusting Orsino though.

Oh please. The game -- and more specifically the endgame -- wasn't morally grey and that's what Bioware was aiming for it seems. Bioware failed to characterize Orsino or Meredith properly and then have them turn on us in such a gloriously idiotic fashion that I can barely stomach the game.

The decision you make is grey. Wether you end up killing both Meredith and Orsino or not, does not make the decision any less grey. It only reduces the variability of the outcome.
These discussion wouldn't exist if it wasn't grey. Neither side is 100% undeniably right. You agree with the mages, I don't. Neither of us are wrong in our opinions.

No it's not. Anders blew up the Chantry on his own. He's an apostate. He had no connection to the mages in the Circle anymore because the Mage Underground is gone.

Meredith then decides that since she can become acting Grand Cleric of sorts that she can now get away with her personal goal: Annulling the Circle. She had been itching for this to happen and when Elthina said no she sent a letter to the Divine asking for it.

That's ignoring her superior's orders since the Grand Cleric commands the Templars of Kirkwall.

She let her personal bias and hatred against mages come before her duty. That's not grey. That's jet black and ghostly white.

Not to mention she was clearly insane by carrying around a sword with red frickin' lyrium growing on it. You don't even have to see it glow to see that it's in the same shape as the lyrium veins found in the Deep Roads and the Primeval Thaig.

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I still find it funny how he keeps on saying there is no corruption in the circle yet at the end of the game, he proves Meredith, while a nutcase, was right.

*claps* Good job Orsino.

He never once said the Circle wasn't corrupt. He said he'd help the Knight Commander look for blood mages if she'd revoke the RoA and he only took issue with the fact that Meredith was going to perform a search of the tower for no legitimate reason.

She had no probable cause to do so.

He was refusing to let her search. why would he do that if the circle was not tainted and he was not hiding something? This is the same wacko who killed a couple of mages to become a Harvester.

Also Meredith has been waiting to do teh rite for awhile, the Chantry bang was her excuse to do it, and Orsino did not help the matter being a blood mage, helping blood mages and keeping a killer in hiding.

Because even though it's true, acquiescing to that will only strengthen Meredith -- who is just barely holding back on calling for an RoA that she went over her superior's head to call for before the Chantry went KABLOOEY -- into thinking she can get away with it.

Yes there are blood mages. Yes despite blood magic not being inherently evil this is a bad thing. But this means squat considering Meredith had already asked for the RoA to be given to her by the frickin' Divine when Elthina said NO.

Do you honestly think Meredith is going to give an honest account of what's happening? Because if you thought she sent this:

Dear Divine Justinia V,

I have been tightening my hold on the mages as well as usurping the power of the city so much that they've been fighting me back and want me removed. They don't want the Templars removed or the Chantry. Just me. I would really like for an Annulment to be allowed.

It also probably doesn't help that I purchased an idol of what appears to be pure lyrium and I fashioned it into a lyriumsaber. This lyriumsaber seems to be driving me even more insane. I'm even beginning to think the Champion of Kirkwall is evil. My insanity knows no bounds!

So again, I ask for the permission and authority to call for the Right of Annulment.

Your loving and insane Knight-Commander of Kirkwall's Templars,

Meredith Stannard

then you're sorely mistaken. She's going to make up a bunch of crap to try and justify what she's doing.

Her letter that she sent happened prior to any of the Mage quests that Hawke did, so she wouldn't have been able to talk about these things because they haven't happened yet.

David Gaider said long ago that the Templars are a military order. Meredith ignored the orders of her CO of sorts (Elthina) and went over her head to receive permission for something.

This is actually really similar to the character Colonel Lacey in M*A*S*H. He was a glory hound who beneath his prettied up words to his troops only wanted to take a hill. When he was told by his higher-ups that the plan he proposed was not authorized because the higher-ups didn't want any offensives to be launched, do you know what he did?

"Well I have to send scouts, and scouts will draw fire. And then it'll be a defensive. I can take that hill!"

He was deliberately going out of his way to ignore his superior's orders so that he could do what he personally wanted.

First, props on the MASH reference . . .and double props for Col. Lacey.  Man, I loved that show.

But anyway . . . .

If we agree blood magic is bad - or at least illegal - which I think is something that we CAN agree on....
and if we agree that there ARE blood mages in the Kirkwall Circle, which again is something I think we can agree on....

Then what is so wrong about a search of mage quarters for incriminating evidence of blood magic?

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Both Orsino and Meredith where playing with fire tbh, then Anders decides to go SURPRISE.

Well, he succeeded, and he got his revolution. The death of Orsino and various other mages was a shame, of course, as are those deaths caused by the blast's collateral damage, but I'll do what I can to make a better world out of it.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She let her personal bias and hatred against mages come before her duty. That's not grey. That's jet black and ghostly white.

This would only be true if you believe that the blowing up of the Chantry is the only reason to annul the circle.

[lobi]

The Circle was Corrupt, the City guard was corrupt, The Templars were corrupt, The Viscount was harbouring heretics, Hedge witches and Apostates were fleeing Fereldon and heading into the free marches. Elthina was ineffectual. The Divine sent Meredith when she should have sent an Army. Mage apologists want to blame the veil. Thats like blaming war for war crimes.

[TEWR]

First, props on the MASH reference . . .and double props for Col. Lacey.  Man, I loved that show.

But anyway . . . .

If we agree blood magic is bad - or at least illegal - which I think is something that we CAN agree on....
and if we agree that there ARE blood mages in the Kirkwall Circle, which again is something I think we can agree on....

Then what is so wrong about a search of mage quarters for incriminating evidence of blood magic?

Ha thanks. I actually watched it last night. I've got the entire series as well as the VHS movie version.

But it's that Meredith is literally looking for any excuse to call for the RoA. She assumed that Orsino knew about the rebellion and even accuses the Champion of being a blood mage thrall under his control. She desperately wants to call for that Annulment and is looking for any excuse.

It's not that Orsino doesn't want a search to be done. It's that he doesn't want Meredith to be the one doing that search because she wants justification for her personal bias, however slim.

If it were another Knight Commander asking for the search -- one that didn't have a personal bias against mages -- then I'd be inclined to agree with people here.

But it's Meredith.

[Heimdall]

lobi wrote...

@ Asir I played it four days ago and reloaded the scene just to be sure because it struck me as strange. I quote "We know your spying for Orsino" plain as day.
Granted the amount of blood flowing through the Tevinter Design would have weakened the veil. But every Senior mage in a Circle is Harrowed.They have faced Demons in the Fade itself. How was it that Keiren could resist possession. Remember what Sebastian say's to Lady Harrimans daughter about Desire Demons. Marithari was not forced. Remember Conner? Demons must be summoned sundered veil or no.

I don't have my copy of the game on hand, but look here.  "We know you're working for Meredith!" and this is from someone that got the quest from Orsino.

Tell that to Ser Thrask's daughter (And Marethari wasn't even in Kirkwall, thus irrelevant to discussion)  the thin veil makes mages far more vulnerable than they are elsewhere.  Especially when they are backed into a corner and pushed to emotional extremes.  We know this can send a lone mage to the point where they become abominations spontaneously in Kirkwall, now multiply the effect for a few hundred mages terrified for their lives and I doubt even the First Enchanter was entirely safe.  All it would take would be for a mage or two to give in and start to unravel the veil and everything goes to hell fast.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She let her personal bias and hatred against mages come before her duty. That's not grey. That's jet black and ghostly white.

This would only be true if you believe that the blowing up of the Chantry is the only reason to annul the circle.

It's the only reason Meredith gives. A person can roleplay their Hawkes to feel differently on the inside, but the actual situation speaks otherwise because it isn't grey.

The situation itself isn't grey. What a respective Hawke may feel is, though it's my opinion that dialogue in the game renders this point invalid. But I'd have to know what a Templar Hawke says during those instances because I've never played them that way.

Like full dialogue and all for every choice.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She let her personal bias and hatred against mages come before her duty. That's not grey. That's jet black and ghostly white.

This would only be true if you believe that the blowing up of the Chantry is the only reason to annul the circle.

It's the only reason Meredith gives. A person can roleplay their Hawkes to feel differently on the inside, but the actual situation speaks otherwise because it isn't grey.

The situation itself isn't grey. What a respective Hawke may feel is, though it's my opinion that dialogue in the game renders this point invalid. But I'd have to know what a Templar Hawke says during those instances because I've never played them that way.

Like full dialogue and all for every choice.

A Hawke siding with the Templars can imply they regret what there doing, don't fully agree with what Meredith is doing, save /three mages from death which Cullen agrees with and confront Meredith after the fight with Orsino. You can either rp Hawke as helping the Templars because you liek them, doing it to protect the city but you regret what your doing or do it because you are selfish and want to be Viscount.

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

First, props on the MASH reference . . .and double props for Col. Lacey.  Man, I loved that show.

But anyway . . . .

If we agree blood magic is bad - or at least illegal - which I think is something that we CAN agree on....
and if we agree that there ARE blood mages in the Kirkwall Circle, which again is something I think we can agree on....

Then what is so wrong about a search of mage quarters for incriminating evidence of blood magic?

Ha thanks. I actually watched it last night. I've got the entire series as well as the VHS movie version.

But it's that Meredith is literally looking for any excuse to call for the RoA. She assumed that Orsino knew about the rebellion and even accuses the Champion of being a blood mage thrall under his control. She desperately wants to call for that Annulment and is looking for any excuse.

It's not that Orsino doesn't want a search to be done. It's that he doesn't want Meredith to be the one doing that search because she wants justification for her personal bias, however slim.

If it were another Knight Commander asking for the search -- one that didn't have a personal bias against mages -- then I'd be inclined to agree with people here.

But it's Meredith.

Maybe so.  But she IS the Knight Commander.  It IS her job, after all, or at least part of it.  I suppose Orsino could have said that, suggested a compromise - Cullen leading the search, let's say.  Although honestly, I doubt Meredith herself was going to go room to room.  She probably would have had someone else actively supervise.  That's my thought, anyway.

But the thing is, Orsino is opposed to a search . . . not to Meredith leading or taking part in a search.

Sure, she's crazy by Act 3, and getting crazier . . . . but we all know she IS actually right about blood mages in the Gallows.

I have a hard time seeing Orsino's refusal as anything but self-interest after the revelations at the end of the game.  And before people say that's metagaming, which it is, his refusal strikes me as odd eve when made.  Innocent people should have nothing to fear from a search.

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She let her personal bias and hatred against mages come before her duty. That's not grey. That's jet black and ghostly white.

This would only be true if you believe that the blowing up of the Chantry is the only reason to annul the circle.

It's the only reason Meredith gives. A person can roleplay their Hawkes to feel differently on the inside, but the actual situation speaks otherwise because it isn't grey.

The situation itself isn't grey. What a respective Hawke may feel is, though it's my opinion that dialogue in the game renders this point invalid. But I'd have to know what a Templar Hawke says during those instances because I've never played them that way.

Like full dialogue and all for every choice.

A Hawke siding with the Templars can imply they regret what there doing, don't fully agree with what Meredith is doing, save /three mages from death which Cullen agrees with and confront Meredith after the fight with Orsino. You can either rp Hawke as helping the Templars because you liek them, doing it to protect the city but you regret what your doing or do it because you are selfish and want to be Viscount.

So if they don't fully agree with what Meredith is doing, why are they doing it in the first place? ****s and giggles?

Those three mages are made Tranquil, so there's really no point in saving them when you can save hundreds of innocent mages from what Varric even calls a "brutal injustice".

If they regret what they're doing, again why are they doing it? Wouldn't it be better to spread word of Meredith's injustices rather than ensuring that none of it gets out and helping to cover Meredith's tracks?

It's like I thought. It doesn't seem to be grey at all.

[DRTJR]

Orsino didn't have the wisdom nor the expirence of other first enchantes, he had to deal with someone who already was a mage hating loon.

[TheCreeper]

The problem I always had with siding with Meredith is that she was planning on enacting the right of annulment before Anders did anything (She sent away for it apparently). For all Orsino's faults he certainly never tried to do anything as bad as enact the right of annulment (which involves killing children) when circle could obiviously still could be saved. I always found the writers saying that Meredith wasn't doing anything illegal when she enacted the right to be utterly confusing.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She let her personal bias and hatred against mages come before her duty. That's not grey. That's jet black and ghostly white.

This would only be true if you believe that the blowing up of the Chantry is the only reason to annul the circle.

It's the only reason Meredith gives. A person can roleplay their Hawkes to feel differently on the inside, but the actual situation speaks otherwise because it isn't grey.

The situation itself isn't grey. What a respective Hawke may feel is, though it's my opinion that dialogue in the game renders this point invalid. But I'd have to know what a Templar Hawke says during those instances because I've never played them that way.

Like full dialogue and all for every choice.

A Hawke siding with the Templars can imply they regret what there doing, don't fully agree with what Meredith is doing, save /three mages from death which Cullen agrees with and confront Meredith after the fight with Orsino. You can either rp Hawke as helping the Templars because you liek them, doing it to protect the city but you regret what your doing or do it because you are selfish and want to be Viscount.

So if they don't fully agree with what Meredith is doing, why are they doing it in the first place? ****s and giggles?

Those three mages are made Tranquil, so there's really no point in saving them when you can save hundreds of innocent mages from what Varric even calls a "brutal injustice".

If they regret what they're doing, again why are they doing it? Wouldn't it be better to spread word of Meredith's injustices rather than ensuring that none of it gets out and helping to cover Meredith's tracks?

It's like I thought. It doesn't seem to be grey at all.

It's not, just saying you can rp Hawke who sides with the Templars in a way that does not make them mage haters or want to kill every mage in sight. It's still done really crappy to teh point where players have to fix Biowares crappy writing.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...


Maybe so.  But she IS the Knight Commander.  It IS her job, after all, or at least part of it.  I suppose Orsino could have said that, suggested a compromise - Cullen leading the search, let's say.  Although honestly, I doubt Meredith herself was going to go room to room.  She probably would have had someone else actively supervise.  That's my thought, anyway.

Her job is to protect the mages from the populus as well as the populus from the mages. But the mages were never a threat to the populus in this particular instance.

Her job is to work with the First Enchanter and not let her personal bias interfere with her duty.

On both counts she fails utterly because she lets the mob that she thinks will form -- which doesn't thanks to Aveline, the Champion, and the fact that we don't see anyone heading towards the Gallows aside from mages and Templars -- dictate her actions.

She fails in her duty because she wanted that Annulment.

But the thing is, Orsino is opposed to a search . . . not to Meredith leading or taking part in a search.

Sure, she's crazy by Act 3, and getting crazier . . . . but we all know she IS actually right about blood mages in the Gallows.

I have a hard time seeing Orsino's refusal as anything but self-interest after the revelations at the end of the game.  And before people say that's metagaming, which it is, his refusal strikes me as odd eve when made.  Innocent people should have nothing to fear from a search.

You cannot do that! You have no right! -- Orsino

Doesn't sound like he's opposed to the search. Sounds like he's opposed to Meredith calling for it.

Please Knight-Commander, I beg you. Call off the Right of Annulment. I'll let you search the tower. I'll even help you! But don't punish us all for an act we didn't commit! -- Orsino

That doesn't sound like a man who is interested in only himself. That doesn't sound like a Circle beyond saving. That sounds like a man who would gladly surrender to justice for being an academic blood mage.

The mages were innocent of that act. Were they entirely innocent? We don't really know. For all we know Hawke cleaned house and killed every blood mage in the Gallows. We only encounter one after the RoA is called for, but we don't know if she was always a blood mage or if the Templars threatening her life drove her to become a blood mage.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So if they don't fully agree with what Meredith is doing, why are they doing it in the first place? ****s and giggles?

If you mean Hawke's crew, the reasoning is pretty simple. There are more than enough templars to annul all of the mages. The annulment is mostly inevitable. However, as we see after the Chantry explodes, Hawke and crew still need to fight their way through Lowtown and the Docks to get to the gallows. That's a lot of area for crazed mages and abominations to do damage. The mages are mostly doomed anyway; many of them are likely going to turn into abominations out of hopelessness or fear. Any of them could kill a lot of innocent people. So my first Hawke sided with the templars not out of any particular love for them, but to try to ensure the whole messy business was done as fast as possible with minimal collateral damage. It sucks for the mages, but given the choice between all mages dying and all mages plus a bunch of innocent civilians dying, my Hawke chose the former.

[lobi]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Tell that to Ser Thrask's daughter (And Marethari wasn't even in Kirkwall, thus irrelevant to discussion)  the thin veil makes mages far more vulnerable than they are elsewhere.  Especially when they are backed into a corner and pushed to emotional extremes.  We know this can send a lone mage to the point where they become abominations spontaneously in Kirkwall, now multiply the effect for a few hundred mages terrified for their lives and I doubt even the First Enchanter was entirely safe.  All it would take would be for a mage or two to give in and start to unravel the veil and everything goes to hell fast.

The veil was torn in a ' Final vengeful strike' at Sundermount, so it is very relevent.
Thrask knew his daughter was at that warehouse, he said so himself. Why did he not act to have her rescued? What was he hiding beyond the fact she was Apostate?. Why did he tolerate Grace and blood magic? "What she was, what she had become" Apostates can keep their lives and join the circle, blood mages are not given the same latitude.