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[Heimdall]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Meredith: Morning Orsino.
Orsino: Morning, tyrant.
Meredith: Woah, what's wrong with you?
Orsino: OPPRESSION.
Meredith: You must understand, I'm simply defending mages from their own stupidity.
Orsino: So you say, I'll go leave  the Circle and rally up the nobles and  trying to make them overthrow you.
Meredith: Stop this at once!
Orsino: No!
*later*
Orsino: You're not allowed to search the tower for signs of blood magic!
Meredith: Why? Afraid I'll find evidence  that you're a blood mage and might kill you?
Orsino: Ye- I mean no, you're not allowed!
Meredith: Yes, I am.
Orsino: You have no proof! You see blood mages where non exist!
*Meredith points to the Circle / Templar conspiracy filled with blood mages*
Orsino: That doesn't mean there's any blood mages in the Circle!
Meredith: Which is why I want to look, starting with you!
*reads papers*
Meredith: "Quentin's research on Harv-"
Orsino: You can't read that, there's no blood mages in this tower! Shoo, tyrant!
*later*
Meredith: How do I know you're not helping the rebellion or blood mages?
Orsino: You have to take my word for it.
Meredith: I'm going to look into your room.
Orsino: I TOLD YOU, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED.
Meredith: I'm doing it anyway!
Orsino: ELTHINNNAAAAAAAAAAAAA
*Orsino runs away*
*later*
Orsino: Don't look at my stuff!
Meredith: I can and will!
*Elthina dies, Right of Annulement is called*
Meredith: No!
Orsino: No, now she'll look through my stuff! D:
Meredith: I'm anulling you all.
Orsino: Please don't, I don't want to die!
Meredith: I will! Run off, Orsino!
Orsino: Nooo!
*Orsino runs off*
*Later*
Orsino: Please Meredith, don't kill me plz. I'll let you go through my stuff if you aren't going to kill me! I mean, you'll probably be more merciful than now because I have no chance of surviving this ordeal!
Meredith: No.
*Orsino runs off crying*
*later*
Orsino: You fool, I've been hiding blood magic from you all! Now you die!
Hawke: Really?
Meredith: Really.

Except that Meredith would call even a casual note on the subject evidence of practicing blood magic and have a mage made tranquil on the spot.  There's a legitamate reason for not wanting her to lead a search of the mage's quarters.  Also, Orsino didn't practice blood magic before the Harvester thing.  Really, he has no reason to lie at that point, no possible benefit.

[Dave of Canada]

Except she doesn't tranquil known blood mages sent to the Circle, she shows mercy to Alain despite it being against what she's supposed to do. Meredith isn't unreasonable, just paranoid.

And honestly, I doubt you can go full Harvester in a split second without knowing anything about blood magic.

[TEWR]

1.  So when does she have reason to suspect there might be blood mages?  Was Huon from Starkhaven?  He was a blood mage, no?  Emile claimed to be one, he wasn't from Starkhaven, was he?  Grace was from Starkhaven, and was a blood mage when she got there . . . and was never discovered.  Maybe because a thorough search wasn't done?

Huon was driven to insanity because of the measures of the Templars. Nyssa remarks that he was a kind and gentle soul once but she hadn't seen him in 10 years until he showed up on her doorstep and scared the dying daylights out of her (I realize the saying is "living daylights", but I like this better because it's the name of an album by a favorite band of mine, so I use it in place of the actual saying).

This is exactly what Orsino was talking about in Act III's opening. The Templars push the mages into desperate acts and then use that as justification against them even further so they can become even harsher.

Emile was an idiot. He claimed to be a blood mage (something the Templars didn't know when he was hanging out in the frickin' Hanged Man) only to get the girls. Hawke can tell Meredith this and oddly enough she laughs at it.

I didn't think she had enough of a soul to show any sort of emotion.

We don't know when Grace became a blood mage. Was it during Act of Mercy which also suffers from plot stupidity? Or was it anywhere in the 6 years afterwards? We don't know. I won't say it's impossible, but it's not known.

And also, she's dead.

2.  He doesn't ever say "Let someone else search".  He doesn't ever suggest he is objecting only to Meredith.  He says "You cannot do that.  You have no right".  Do you really think the you is specifically Meredith?  That he's willingly accept a search by Cullen and 40 Templars chosen at random right then?  I don't.

Do you really think his "you" is a general you? He's talking to only Meredith. He's not pointing at all of the Templars or gesturing towards all of them. It's aimed directly at Meredith.

Body gestures speak volumes about how a person is saying something.

2a - again, if the Knight Commander doesn't have that authority, who does?  Suggesting she doesn't - which is what he says - strikes me as beyond absurd.

Overall, though, I think once again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

She never should've been in the position of Knight-Commander since she had a personal bias against them.

Personally I feel the role of Knight-Commander should be an impartial role. If you have a child who's a mage or you have had bad experiences with mages prior to becoming a Templar, you are not eligible.

This is why she doesn't have the authority. Because when does it become clear that she's acting on behalf of the Templar Order and not her personal bias? This is something even Cullen can't tell the difference between.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 02:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Of course, there's Meredith's death squad targeting civilians, the templar who tortured a child, the templars raping mages, the templar who was making mages tranquil against Chantry law for years, and the dictatorship she installed where she caused enough unrest to allow civilians and nobles to rally around the Champion if he publicly condemns her actions.

Siding with Meredith and seeing her glee at her edict in ordering the deaths of hundreds of people doesn't really convince me that Orsino shouldn't be wary of her.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except she doesn't tranquil known blood mages sent to the Circle, she shows mercy to Alain despite it being against what she's supposed to do. Meredith isn't unreasonable, just paranoid.

And honestly, I doubt you can go full Harvester in a split second without knowing anything about blood magic.

That isn't what was said. What was said is that Orsino wasn't a practicing blood mage. No one's denying that he was an academic blood mage.

Personally, I characterize him a bit by giving him an eidetic memory that up until the point of receiving a thoroughly detailed report on the Harvester ritual never gave him nightmares. Then when Quentin sent that report he began wishing he never read it or didn't have such a perfect memory.

That's only a brief summary of how I characterize everything regarding Orsino, Quentin, and the Harvester ritual. The longer one I won't type out right now.

[TJPags]

EWR - her being a good KC is really not an issue though, not to me.

She is the KC. I can't imagine the KC doesn't have the right to search the mage quarters, by proxy if she wants, or personally.

But whatever. Again, we're in a never ending cycle of "Meredith is crazy", "but the mages are out of control", "only because she made them", "yet there are out of control mages not from her circle", etc, etc, etc.

[FieryDove]

So many good theories!

I really wanted more screen time with Orsino. The game needed it along with Mededith to flesh them out. (imho)

I still facepalm with a pro-mage hawke. Just didn't happen, I was dreaming...right?

[LobselVith8]

FieryDove wrote...

I still facepalm with a pro-mage hawke. Just didn't happen, I was dreaming... right?

I hope I was dreaming, too. Or that Varric was simply drunk during interrogation.

[DRTJR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

I still facepalm with a pro-mage hawke. Just didn't happen, I was dreaming... right?

I hope I was dreaming, too. Or that Varric was simply drunk during interrogation.

Maybe Casandra wasn't an Orsino fan so he played to his audience and said he became big evil thingy because he was blood mage. 

[TheCreeper]

I do wish there was a novelization (although maker knows the poltical maelstorm that would raise) that had Orsino going out the way the writer's originally planned for mage ending.

[Lord_Valandil]

You know, I just wish it wasn't necessary to kill both Orsino and Meredith.
Always thought of that fact as a cheap way to avoid creating more variables, less work for the writers and everyone else, etc.
Meh.

[TEWR]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

You know, I just wish it wasn't necessary to kill both Orsino and Meredith.
Always thought of that fact as a cheap way to avoid creating more variables, less work for the writers and everyone else, etc.
Meh.

I wouldn't have minded killing both Orsino and Meredith on a pro-Templar run had the lyrium idol been worked into the story in a way that would actually help make the situation grey.

There are many ways the story of DAII could've been grey in my mind.

[Heimdall]

@Dave of Canada

Alain wasn't a known blood mage. In fact he was known to have rejected blood magic and turned himself in.

I don't doubt he knew of the ritual and studied blood magic academically. Practicing is another matter.

[Lord_Valandil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

You know, I just wish it wasn't necessary to kill both Orsino and Meredith.
Always thought of that fact as a cheap way to avoid creating more variables, less work for the writers and everyone else, etc.
Meh.

I wouldn't have minded killing both Orsino and Meredith on a pro-Templar run had the lyrium idol been worked into the story in a way that would actually help make the situation grey.

There are many ways the story of DAII could've been grey in my mind.

Sure, I wouldn't have minded to kill 'em both if there was a good reason or explanation, but I was kind of pissed that most of the choices are pointless or don't have any effect at all...like choosing not to help Anders, he makes the Chantry explode anyway.
The Orsino-Harvester and Super-Insane-Meredith were just terrible. And don't let me speak about the living statues...because...argh...

I should stay away from this forums. I'm not strong enough

[lobi]

Lord Aesir wrote...

lobi wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Tell that to Ser Thrask's daughter (And Marethari wasn't even in Kirkwall, thus irrelevant to discussion)  the thin veil makes mages far more vulnerable than they are elsewhere.  Especially when they are backed into a corner and pushed to emotional extremes.  We know this can send a lone mage to the point where they become abominations spontaneously in Kirkwall, now multiply the effect for a few hundred mages terrified for their lives and I doubt even the First Enchanter was entirely safe.  All it would take would be for a mage or two to give in and start to unravel the veil and everything goes to hell fast.

The veil was torn in a ' Final vengeful strike' at Sundermount, so it is very relevent.
Thrask knew his daughter was at that warehouse, he said so himself. Why did he not act to have her rescued? What was he hiding beyond the fact she was Apostate?. Why did he tolerate Grace and blood magic? "What she was, what she had become" Apostates can keep their lives and join the circle, blood mages are not given the same latitude.

Very irrelevent.  The veil was weakened by the rituals of the magisters and the layout of the city itself was designed to magnify the effects.  What may or may not have happened to sunder the veil on Sundermount is a differant issue than in a place like the Gallows which has been home to powerful emotions of cruelty, hate and terror for countless years.  Are you trying to assert that Thrask's daughter was a blood mage?  Find me some proof of that, there is none.  His daughter's death was what changed Thrask's veiw about apostates and mages, he says as much himself that he should have forced her into the Circle rather than allow her to seek freedom.  It was only with Meredith's excess that he began to change his tune.

Cruelty hate and terror for countless years and then suddenly it's all merediths fault? Sure lets just ignore that whole mages in a cave incedent and the fact that hawk was bringing news to Thrask of his daughters death. He tracked her to the warehouse and left her there. Alive. With slavers. Fenryal quest is before this even happens so nyah.

Modifié par lobi, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:02 .

[TEWR]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

You know, I just wish it wasn't necessary to kill both Orsino and Meredith.
Always thought of that fact as a cheap way to avoid creating more variables, less work for the writers and everyone else, etc.
Meh.

I wouldn't have minded killing both Orsino and Meredith on a pro-Templar run had the lyrium idol been worked into the story in a way that would actually help make the situation grey.

There are many ways the story of DAII could've been grey in my mind.

Sure, I wouldn't have minded to kill 'em both if there was a good reason or explanation, but I was kind of pissed that most of the choices are pointless or don't have any effect at all...like choosing not to help Anders, he makes the Chantry explode anyway.
The Orsino-Harvester and Super-Insane-Meredith were just terrible. And don't let me speak about the living statues...because...argh...

I should stay away from this forums. I'm not strong enough

I didn't mind the makeshift golems. I liked them actually. 

[Lord_Valandil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I didn't mind the makeshift golems. I liked them actually. 

Nothing wrong with liking them.
But I couldn't take them seriously.

[cihimi]

In general, saying that getting spanked constantly by the Templers is enough reason to resort to blood magic is idiotic. You should know that there is no turning back once you engage in forbidden magic. And once you employ the "assistance" of Fade creatures, you are done for. You are no longer human, so to speak. And the Templars will treat you accordingly.

[Heimdall]

@lobi

The Gallows had always been occupied by beings filled with despair and fear. Never before had it been filled with hundreds of mages terrified for their lives. That was Meredith and the Templar's doing. You do know those mages in the cave were not from Kirkwall, right? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Are you trying to take some dig at Thrask? Define your position. Thrask didn't know they were slavers any more than his daughter did.

[C9316]

Orsino just like everyone else in DA2 was just bat sh*t crazy...

[TEWR]

cihimi wrote...

In general, saying that getting spanked constantly by the Templers is enough reason to resort to blood magic is idiotic. You should know that there is no turning back once you engage in forbidden magic. And once you employ the "assistance" of Fade creatures, you are done for. You are no longer human, so to speak. And the Templars will treat you accordingly.

This goes beyond "getting spanked". This goes to getting raped, beaten, insulted, and everything else.

Is it any wonder that people who have their spirits broken are also the ones that commit mass killings or commit suicide in our society?

What would be better do you think? For the mage to commit suicide, accept all these horrendous abuses day in and day out, or resort to blood magic? Because those are the only options when the people in charge won't even reign in their own Templars.

[lobi]

Lord Aesir wrote...

@lobi

The Gallows had always been occupied by beings filled with despair and fear. Never before had it been filled with hundreds of mages terrified for their lives. That was Meredith and the Templar's doing. You do know those mages in the cave were not from Kirkwall, right? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Are you trying to take some dig at Thrask? Define your position. Thrask didn't know they were slavers any more than his daughter did.

What an odd question, Perhaps I should ask you not to feign ignorance. Consider your argument in relation to the chronological order of events. Why do you not comment when reminded that Thrask's conversations with Feynrials mother are before the death of Thrasks daughter?  

Modifié par lobi, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:48 .

[Heimdall]

lobi wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@lobi

The Gallows had always been occupied by beings filled with despair and fear. Never before had it been filled with hundreds of mages terrified for their lives. That was Meredith and the Templar's doing. You do know those mages in the cave were not from Kirkwall, right? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Are you trying to take some dig at Thrask? Define your position. Thrask didn't know they were slavers any more than his daughter did.

What an odd question, Perhaps I should ask you not to feign ignorance. Consider your argument in relation to the chronological order of events. Why do you not comment when reminded that Thrask's conversations with Feynrials mother are before the death of Thrasks daughter?  

I am not, I'm asking what it is you're trying to prove with Thrask.  I'd ask for clarity before continuing on a line of argument with no coherent point I have seen.

As to your question, he explains it to you.  He felt guilty about his daughter running away.

[lobi]

Lord Aesir wrote...

lobi wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

@lobi

The Gallows had always been occupied by beings filled with despair and fear. Never before had it been filled with hundreds of mages terrified for their lives. That was Meredith and the Templar's doing. You do know those mages in the cave were not from Kirkwall, right? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Are you trying to take some dig at Thrask? Define your position. Thrask didn't know they were slavers any more than his daughter did.

What an odd question, Perhaps I should ask you not to feign ignorance. Consider your argument in relation to the chronological order of events. Why do you not comment when reminded that Thrask's conversations with Feynrials mother are before the death of Thrasks daughter?  

I am not, I'm asking what it is you're trying to prove with Thrask.  I'd ask for clarity before continuing on a line of argument with no coherent point I have seen.

As to your question, he explains it to you.  He felt guilty about his daughter running away.

Am I having a dig at thrask? Yes. I say that Thrask's honesty has always been questionable. He is as much an example of corruption among the Templars as is Samson. Hardly surprising that they team up. Both use the issue of mage freedom as a smokescreen for their real agenda.
One Drugs, the other Fear, and both share a deep hatred of Meredith for shaking them out of their comfort zone when she was promoted.
Thrasks lie's mask his cowardice in virtue. At least Samson is honest about his motives and recants when confronted with necromancy. Thrask only recants when confronted with Hawks blade. You cannot take what Thrask say's as any more truthful or his actions more virtuous than the those of the Disgraced Guard Captain. He is a coward that knows that while those he leads astray face death he only faces the sack. I guess Grace crazy as she was, saw through him. Justice was served.

[Dave of Canada]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Alain wasn't a known blood mage. In fact he was known to have rejected blood magic and turned himself in.

Even in Act 3 when he uses blood magic?

I don't doubt he knew of the ritual and studied blood magic academically. Practicing is another matter.

Considering the blood mage scrolls, he's certainly amazing if he didn't need to do anything which the scrolls imply is necessary.