233 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Weird to me too. I don't see every mage as innocent of the situation in Kirkwall like I don't see every templar as guilty. The problem is ultimately that at the time Meredith is forcing the issue on Hawke, there is no actual evidence that the Circle is corrupt. The rebellion organized by Thrask was put down, all the leaders were dead or deserted (Kerran if you play it that way, becomes a mercenary in front of the Hanged man.) The mage who destroyed the Chantry was an apostate, and Cullen acknowledges his apostate status, and implies knowing Merrill is one as well (calling Anders one of Hawke's known apostate companions.) So I find it difficult to believe Meredith didn't know he was an apostate as well.

Meredith actually addresses that Anders' is protected by his relationship with the Champion, if Hawke doesn't contest the fate of the mages in "On the Loose." I'd assume the same is true for Merrill as well.

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Circle didn't do this, Orsino admits it before the Right of Annulment is officially called, and Meredith isn't listening.

In my mind, in Origins there was no real reason to annul the circle then (okay, there were big reasons, but no consequences if we didn't) so most players didn't annul the circle because they kill all the blood mages and there aren't any negative consequences if we don't...say an abomination popping out and killing apprentices. And in DA2, any reason whatsoever there may have been to annul the Circle were already taken care of and removed before the Right is called, and all we have is one megalomaniac who had been consolidating power throughout the entire game saying it was necessary without offering any proof.

I think Origins did a much better job with the dichotomy between mages and templars. Throughout the storyline in Origins, there were many templars who illustrated that the Order of Templars isn't comprised of one-note villains, but good people - Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir, who laments the Right of Annulment (in sharp contrast to Meredith's response to killing the Circle mages who aren't guilty of the actions of one, single Grey Warden mage/apostate). Greagoir is concerned about the threat of abominations, and is willing to raze the entire Circle Tower even though his own men are trapped inside. Meredith, in contrast to Greagoir, is going to kill hundreds of people simply to appease the bloodlust of the mob.

[dragonflight288]

I think Origins did a much better job with the dichotomy between mages and templars. Throughout the storyline in Origins, there were many templars who illustrated that the Order of Templars isn't comprised of one-note villains, but good people - Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir, who laments the Right of Annulment (in sharp contrast to Meredith's response to killing the Circle mages who aren't guilty of the actions of one, single Grey Warden mage/apostate). Greagoir is concerned about the threat of abominations, and is willing to raze the entire Circle Tower even though his own men are trapped inside. Meredith, in contrast to Greagoir, is going to kill hundreds of people simply to appease the bloodlust of the mob.

I agree with this. I have never said all templars are evil, all mages are innocent. And yes, origins did do a much better job showing the two groups. We had that one mage who wanted to throw herself on the templar's swords because she felt her magic was a curse and made her unclean. We had Wynne who never once denied how tough the Circle was but tried to improve things from the inside, and Uldred and the Libertarians wanting to break away from the Chantry entirely.

In DA2, blood mage, blood mage, abomination, raping templar, sadistic templar, Knight-Commander who has way too much political power from the beginning, First-Enchanter who only got the job because no one else wanted to butt heads with Meredith. It was just a volatile situation no matter how one looks at it.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm also saying that you MUST make a deal with a demon to become a true blood mage. Adralla didn't neccesarily (we can't know), but since Orsino actually used blood magic, he must've done so.

If that was true, why can the Orlesian Warden ask the Baroness (when he thinks she is simply a mage) to teach him blood magic? At this point in the narrative, the Orlesian Warden doesn't know that the Baroness isn't human anymore, because Justice makes that revelation after the Orlesian Warden and Justice enter the real world.

There's a split between the inception of blood magic being taught to humanity: some argue it was Dumat, while others have speculated that the elves may have taught humans the art of blood magic. Neither inception involves demons as being the only possible means of learning blood magic. There's no indication that blood magic can only be taught by demons. In the Magi Origin, it's heavily implied that Jowan learned from the bloods on blood magic in the library. In Kirkwall, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident - from the power of her own blood - and his tone is serious when he asks this inquiry.

[Sir JK]

One way to look at it could be that Origins shows us the Templars and Mages at some of the more reasonable sides, while still illustrating the problems and tensions. Whereas in DA2 we're shown the absolute worst of both sides, templars (Karras ruthlessness, Meredith's paranoia and Alrik's plain evil, an unjustified RoA and illegal tranquilisations) and mages (Tahrone's megalomania, Huon's delusions of grandeur, Quentin's obsession, Evelina's rage of not finding help for her children, Grace's absolute hatred and Ander's raw destructive power) alike, while still illustrating that both sides have some reasonable aspects (who unfortunantely gets hit by the crossfire... as is always the case).

Modifié par Sir JK, 26 octobre 2011 - 08:31 .

[SunnKingg]

I believe that Orsino was driven to blood magic by the ever increasingly heavy handed tactics of Meredith. I believe that Orsino is a paradigm for what most people would do when backed into a wall. He most likely, in my opinion, became interested in Quentin's ( I believe that is the necromancer's name) research as a means of defying Meredith. Additionally, I feel that he was genuinely remorseful when Hawke speaks of his mother's death at the hand of blood magic. The true evil was an oppressive regime seeking to dominate those they see as cursed, of less than human; however, none of that justifies blood magic.

[KJandrew]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think Origins did a much better job with the dichotomy between mages and templars. Throughout the storyline in Origins, there were many templars who illustrated that the Order of Templars isn't comprised of one-note villains, but good people - Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir, who laments the Right of Annulment (in sharp contrast to Meredith's response to killing the Circle mages who aren't guilty of the actions of one, single Grey Warden mage/apostate). Greagoir is concerned about the threat of abominations, and is willing to raze the entire Circle Tower even though his own men are trapped inside. Meredith, in contrast to Greagoir, is going to kill hundreds of people simply to appease the bloodlust of the mob.

Origins also gave a Niall, a mage who wants to disband the circle yet still gathers mages to try and kill Uldred because he was against the principle of blood magic more than he was against the circle. 
Whereas in 2 all we get from mages is "Blood Magic, mwahh".

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

bioware just threw in thatharvester boss battle. it was out of place

I know. That infuriates me. They wanted to reuse the Harvester when there were at least 3 other ways they could've had the Harvester pop up without killing off Orsino.

I mean hell, we saw 40 of them (unfortunately) after Amgarrak. Why couldn't one of them have just randomly popped up in the Gallows and killed some mook mages and Templars and turned them into the Golem body?

I'm also saying that you MUST make a deal with a demon to become a true blood mage. Adralla didn't neccesarily (we can't know), but since Orsino actually used blood magic, he must've done so.

We don't even know if that's the case or not. As far as we know it is, but it's not a definite thing. Remember that the arcane is eternal in the Fade which is evidenced by how Torpor says it's rare to see two forgotten magicks in one day and Audacity being able to remember the Eluvian's construction, so that could be the reason why demons know about blood magic.

Remember that it's tied to the physical realm as well, which both Templars and demons are not connected to. Templar abilities separate the connection between the mages and their abilities that draw power from the Fade, and demons operate purely out of the Fade.

IIRC, the Chantry issued a continental ban on blood magic and took -- and more than likely burned -- any books on the subject.

What we know is that because learning blood magic has been forgotten in all but Tevinter, the easiest way to learn blood magic is to go to the ones who remember it eternally: demons.

It's the easiest way. But it's most likely not the only way.

It's my belief that the only reason blood mages are more susceptible to possession is due to an overwhelming sense of arrogance and ****iness. They probably believe that the power that comes from it renders them invincible, and it's that mages let their guard down that the demons take advantage of.

Also what DKjaigen said. I knew I was forgetting something. By your own logic for one to know about blood magic they must deal with a demon. If that's indeed true and demons are the only source for knowledge, then Adralla was a full-fledged blood mage

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 09:44 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm also saying that you MUST make a deal with a demon to become a true blood mage. Adralla didn't neccesarily (we can't know), but since Orsino actually used blood magic, he must've done so.

If that was true, why can the Orlesian Warden ask the Baroness (when he thinks she is simply a mage) to teach him blood magic? At this point in the narrative, the Orlesian Warden doesn't know that the Baroness isn't human anymore, because Justice makes that revelation after the Orlesian Warden and Justice enter the real world.

That doesn't really change the fact that she may have been a demon then. What one thinks and what is true aren't always the same.

...though mages are supposed to be able to call out demons for being.... well.... demons. So I'm unsure of what the deal is there.

Now if the Baroness was still her normal mage self in the Fade because of the nature of her ritual that trapped everyone that's a whole different story. Then it's a deal with a mage.

There's a split between the inception of blood magic being taught to humanity: some argue it was Dumat, while others have speculated that the elves may have taught humans the art of blood magic. Neither inception involves demons as being the only possible means of learning blood magic. There's no indication that blood magic can only be taught by demons. In the Magi Origin, it's heavily implied that Jowan learned from the bloods on blood magic in the library. In Kirkwall, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident - from the power of her own blood - and his tone is serious when he asks this inquiry.

I'm leaning towards the Elves being the ones who taught the Tevinter Imperium about blood magic. Perhaps the Elves used the benign uses of blood magic or hadn't done much research into the school itself, but the Tevinter Imperium did to blood magic what Kirkwall's Circle did to Force Magic.

It's possible though that the Elves knew things about blood magic that the humans didn't since the Eluvian required blood magic to have its power cleansed and Zathrian's immortality is similar to that of his ancestors. Whether it's just similar in that they live for a long time or there's more to it we don't know.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

bioware just threw in thatharvester boss battle. it was out of place

I know. That infuriates me. They wanted to reuse the Harvester when there were at least 3 other ways they could've had the Harvester pop up without killing off Orsino.

I mean hell, we saw 40 of them (unfortunately) after Amgarrak. Why couldn't one of them have just randomly popped up in the Gallows and killed some mook mages and Templars and turned them into the Golem body?

I'm also saying that you MUST make a deal with a demon to become a true blood mage. Adralla didn't neccesarily (we can't know), but since Orsino actually used blood magic, he must've done so.

Nice hypocrisy mate. And Adralla is a bloodmage or at least knows the theory. Otherwise she would not have known how to create counterspells. But i dont have any problems that she is bloodmage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Huh? Is it hypocrisy to say that I have absolutely no way to know for sure that Adralla actually was a blood mage, but that I can be 100% sure that Orsino was?

lets go over the facts: We never meet Adralla, so we can't know for sure wether or not she is a blood mage (ie. possess the ability to use blood instead of mana to fuel spells, and some rather unsavory spells too). Therefore I have absolutely no way of kowing wether or not she was a blood mage. It is likely, sure, it is just as likely that she wasn't though, and simply knew of the wokrings of blood magic. We will probably never know.
orsino on the other hand we meet. We SEE him use blood magic, which pretty much stamps him as a blood mage.

That isn't hypocrisy. That is simply stating the facts.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith actually addresses that Anders' is protected by his relationship with the Champion, if Hawke doesn't contest the fate of the mages in "On the Loose." I'd assume the same is true for Merrill as well.

See, this makes no sense.

I believe that it takes place - don't remember, personally, but I believe what you say - however, it's just stupid.

Hawke as Champion is enough of a joke.  The Knight Commander in Kirkwall allowing apostates to run free, even ones who break the law, simply because they're friends of Hawke is insane.

But, I suppose it has to be the case - after all, there's no other explanation for them to get away with being in Kirkwall.

I've pretty much decided it's not the mage v templar issue that's the problem, nor the people having the discussion.

It's the game's premise of putting apostate mages in Templar central, allowing them to run free at will in a city overflowing with dangerous apostates on the flimsiest of reasons, and then expecting us to care about crackdowns on mages or the actions of Templars or the plight of mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm also saying that you MUST make a deal with a demon to become a true blood mage. Adralla didn't neccesarily (we can't know), but since Orsino actually used blood magic, he must've done so.

If that was true, why can the Orlesian Warden ask the Baroness (when he thinks she is simply a mage) to teach him blood magic? At this point in the narrative, the Orlesian Warden doesn't know that the Baroness isn't human anymore, because Justice makes that revelation after the Orlesian Warden and Justice enter the real world.

That doesn't really change the fact that she may have been a demon then. What one thinks and what is true aren't always the same.

...though mages are supposed to be able to call out demons for being.... well.... demons. So I'm unsure of what the deal is there.

Now if the Baroness was still her normal mage self in the Fade because of the nature of her ritual that trapped everyone that's a whole different story. Then it's a deal with a mage.

Justice says that she is no longer herself, so I'd say she was a demon in the Fade aswell. But even then, I could ask another mage to teach me blood magic (especially if I had no previous knowledge of it) and he could then teach me how to contact the correct kind of demon, and how to force it, or barter it into teaching me. It really isn't rocket science to imagine....

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There's a split between the inception of blood magic being taught to humanity: some argue it was Dumat, while others have speculated that the elves may have taught humans the art of blood magic. Neither inception involves demons as being the only possible means of learning blood magic. There's no indication that blood magic can only be taught by demons. In the Magi Origin, it's heavily implied that Jowan learned from the bloods on blood magic in the library. In Kirkwall, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident - from the power of her own blood - and his tone is serious when he asks this inquiry.

I'm leaning towards the Elves being the ones who taught the Tevinter Imperium about blood magic. Perhaps the Elves used the benign uses of blood magic or hadn't done much research into the school itself, but the Tevinter Imperium did to blood magic what Kirkwall's Circle did to Force Magic.

It's possible though that the Elves knew things about blood magic that the humans didn't since the Eluvian required blood magic to have its power cleansed and Zathrian's immortality is similar to that of his ancestors. Whether it's just similar in that they live for a long time or there's more to it we don't know.

It doesn't matter who "taught" what matters is the SOURCE. What the Elves/Dumat/Demons taught could easily jsut have been how to bind demons to your will, or how to at least convince them to teach you blood magic.
The Eluvian didn't "require" blood magic to be cleansed. Lyrium could have achieved that purpose aswell. The only reason Merrill used blood magic, was because she didn't have any lyrium laying around. And it would seem, from Avernus, that extending your life through blood magic is common enough.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith actually addresses that Anders' is protected by his relationship with the Champion, if Hawke doesn't contest the fate of the mages in "On the Loose." I'd assume the same is true for Merrill as well.

See, this makes no sense.

I believe that it takes place - don't remember, personally, but I believe what you say - however, it's just stupid.

Hawke as Champion is enough of a joke.  The Knight Commander in Kirkwall allowing apostates to run free, even ones who break the law, simply because they're friends of Hawke is insane.

But, I suppose it has to be the case - after all, there's no other explanation for them to get away with being in Kirkwall.

I've pretty much decided it's not the mage v templar issue that's the problem, nor the people having the discussion.

It's the game's premise of putting apostate mages in Templar central, allowing them to run free at will in a city overflowing with dangerous apostates on the flimsiest of reasons, and then expecting us to care about crackdowns on mages or the actions of Templars or the plight of mages.

I kinda agree. It would make some semblance of sense to me, but it doesn't for at least one reason.

Why it would make sense: Nobility have a lot of sway on the lives of mages, friends and relatives alike.

Why it doesn't make sense: Meredith threatens the Champion if he/she is a mage yet says that Anders' friendship with the Champion is what's protecting Anders. So if Meredith wanted she could just try to take the Champion and then Anders.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 11:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hawke as a mage doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the game. Hawke seems to have a stronger character to the plot (ie. less plotholes) as a rogue/warrior.

[TEWR]

That's another thing that makes me sad about DAII.

Frankly I also hate how the brother or sister is killed because of your class. I feel they would've strengthened the Mage-Templar conflict had they both lived. Wesley, Ostagar, and Lothering (were the latter two actually in the game) would've shown enough of what the Blight truly makes a person lose.

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith actually addresses that Anders' is protected by his relationship with the Champion, if Hawke doesn't contest the fate of the mages in "On the Loose." I'd assume the same is true for Merrill as well.

See, this makes no sense.

I believe that it takes place - don't remember, personally, but I believe what you say - however, it's just stupid.

Hawke as Champion is enough of a joke.  The Knight Commander in Kirkwall allowing apostates to run free, even ones who break the law, simply because they're friends of Hawke is insane.

But, I suppose it has to be the case - after all, there's no other explanation for them to get away with being in Kirkwall.

I've pretty much decided it's not the mage v templar issue that's the problem, nor the people having the discussion.

It's the game's premise of putting apostate mages in Templar central, allowing them to run free at will in a city overflowing with dangerous apostates on the flimsiest of reasons, and then expecting us to care about crackdowns on mages or the actions of Templars or the plight of mages.

I kinda agree. It would make some semblance to me, but it doesn't for at least one reason.

Why it would make sense: Nobility have a lot of sway on the lives of mages, friends and relatives alike.

Why it doesn't make sense: Meredith threatens the Champion if he/she is a mage yet says that Anders' friendship with the Champion is what's protecting Anders. So if Meredith wanted she could just try to take the Champion and then Anders.

There is no reason to let MageHawke run around to begin with. He/she is in Kirkwall one year before even the Deep roads and you can't tell me that Hawke made a name for him/herself but nobody realizing that he/she is a mage. An apostate on top of it. So you can just sum it up in 'the plot demands it'. They didn't really make alot of effort to hide flaws in the story.

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith actually addresses that Anders' is protected by his relationship with the Champion, if Hawke doesn't contest the fate of the mages in "On the Loose." I'd assume the same is true for Merrill as well.

See, this makes no sense.

I believe that it takes place - don't remember, personally, but I believe what you say - however, it's just stupid.

Hawke as Champion is enough of a joke.  The Knight Commander in Kirkwall allowing apostates to run free, even ones who break the law, simply because they're friends of Hawke is insane.

But, I suppose it has to be the case - after all, there's no other explanation for them to get away with being in Kirkwall.

I've pretty much decided it's not the mage v templar issue that's the problem, nor the people having the discussion.

It's the game's premise of putting apostate mages in Templar central, allowing them to run free at will in a city overflowing with dangerous apostates on the flimsiest of reasons, and then expecting us to care about crackdowns on mages or the actions of Templars or the plight of mages.

I kinda agree. It would make some semblance to me, but it doesn't for at least one reason.

Why it would make sense: Nobility have a lot of sway on the lives of mages, friends and relatives alike.

Why it doesn't make sense: Meredith threatens the Champion if he/she is a mage yet says that Anders' friendship with the Champion is what's protecting Anders. So if Meredith wanted she could just try to take the Champion and then Anders.

There is no reason to let MageHawke run around to begin with. He/she is in Kirkwall one year before even the Deep roads and you can't tell me that Hawke made a name for him/herself but nobody realizing that he/she is a mage. An apostate on top of it. So you can just sum it up in 'the plot demands it'. They didn't really make alot of effort to hide flaws in the story.

Basically, yes - mage Hawke makes it even worse.

There's no reason for the Templars to let a mage in at the beginning, whether it's mage-Hawke or Bethany.  Even after Hawke becomes Champion, as so many point out, Meredith is running the City, so who would she fear?  The nobles who are too afraid to over rule her on anything else?  Even if you give her some latitude about Hawke being a hero or some nonsense, fine, she can't lock up magehawke.  But Anders?  Known to be consorting with the mage underground?  And an abomination?  Merrill, a blood mage?

No, basically, I've come to realize that any debate about mages v templars is pointless when we see that in spite of clear crimes - not just being apostates, but being abominations or blood mages, trafficing with the mage underground, breaking into the Chantry, attacking Templars - well-known apostates can just hang out at the corner bar.

Hell, Hawke can't protect Bethany, but he can protect Anders and Merrill?

It makes the issue of mages going crazy in Kirkwall silly, since mageHawke, Anders, Merrill, Bethany - none show any ill effect.

Makes the issue of Templars rulling with an iron fist silly, since these people are never arrested.

[TEWR]

Basically, yes - mage Hawke makes it even worse.

The nobles who are too afraid to over rule her on anything else?

They are like lemmings, simply following the Champion's footsteps. Though two nobles remark on other noble families helping hide mages, so some are actually fighting against Meredith. Reason why? To protect an ideal.

Ser Marlein Selbrech is one such noble.

Merrill, a blood mage?

to be fair Merrill's blood magic isn't known to anyone outside the party and the Templars just see her as another elf in the Alienage -- and there are a few elves in Kirkwall with Dalish tattoos, though some come from the fetch quests -- so that's a good enough reason for me. 

 

Hell, Hawke can't protect Bethany, but he can protect Anders and Merrill?

I think Bethany being taken away was beyond poorly handled. It was just absurd Two templars stand in Hawke's way? It would've been better had 50 Templars shown up led by Meredith, Cullen, and Thrask. And given the Kirkwall Templars' stance on mages, this is what I expected.

I don't mind Bethany being taken away. But I do mind her being taken away in the worst possible manner, which was two Templars being all there was.

[TheCreeper]

Two Templars at first, if hawke resisted there would have been a lot more less friendly templars coming. Meredith wasn't death squad level crazy at that time so she didn't automatically send 30 templars prepared for the worst.

[TEWR]

TheCreeper wrote...

Two Templars at first, if hawke resisted there would have been a lot more less friendly templars coming. Meredith wasn't death squad level crazy at that time so she didn't automatically send 30 templars prepared for the worst.

Well yea, but the family would've been long gone afterwards (which would've upset Bethany a great deal), so it wouldn't have mattered. It would be life as usual to them.

And besides, Meredith sent two dozen Templars in search of the Starkhaven Mages if they were let go in Act of Mercy despite Thrask leaving a trail that let them get away easily. So it's obvious Meredith was sending out droves of Templars. She should've done the same if Bethany was taken away.

[TJPags]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Basically, yes - mage Hawke makes it even worse.

The nobles who are too afraid to over rule her on anything else?

They are like lemmings, simply following the Champion's footsteps. Though two nobles remark on other noble families helping hide mages, so some are actually fighting against Meredith. Reason why? To protect an ideal.

Ser Marlein Selbrech is one such noble.

Maybe you miss my point.  The nobles can't do anything about Meredith running the City, apparently.  Why or how would they stop her from arresting mageHawke or Anders or Merrill?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill, a blood mage?

to be fair Merrill's blood magic isn't known to anyone outside the party and the Templars just see her as another elf in the Alienage -- and there are a few elves in Kirkwall with Dalish tattoos, though some come from the fetch quests -- so that's a good enough reason for me. 

Except for all those times Hawke and company get attacked on the streets and she can use blood magic, or eve regular magic.  Nobody knows about any of that?  Come on.  Someone in Darktown or Lowtown must want to earn some cash by turning in a blood mage.

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hell, Hawke can't protect Bethany, but he can protect Anders and Merrill?

I think Bethany being taken away was beyond poorly handled. It was just absurd Two templars stand in Hawke's way? It would've been better had 50 Templars shown up led by Meredith, Cullen, and Thrask. And given the Kirkwall Templars' stance on mages, this is what I expected.

I don't mind Bethany being taken away. But I do mind her being taken away in the worst possible manner, which was two Templars being all there was.

For this point, 2 templars or 200 is not relevant.  The point is, Hawke's own sister gets arrested.  But not Anders or Merrill . . because of Hawke's influence?    He'd protect them, but not his sister?

Kirkwall makes no sense as a setting for this game, and it's treatment of Hawke and friends contradicts the scenario we're expected to accept as occurring in Kirkwall.

[TheCreeper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Two Templars at first, if hawke resisted there would have been a lot more less friendly templars coming. Meredith wasn't death squad level crazy at that time so she didn't automatically send 30 templars prepared for the worst.

Well yea, but the family would've been long gone afterwards (which would've upset Bethany a great deal), so it wouldn't have mattered. It would be life as usual to them.

And besides, Meredith sent two dozen Templars in search of the Starkhaven Mages if they were let go in Act of Mercy despite Thrask leaving a trail that let them get away easily. So it's obvious Meredith was sending out droves of Templars. She should've done the same if Bethany was taken away.

Starkhaven mages are a group of escaped circle mages who worked with a known blood mage, Bethany was an apostate living in the slums.

[TEWR]

Maybe you miss my point. The nobles can't do anything about Meredith running the City, apparently. Why or how would they stop her from arresting mageHawke or Anders or Merrill?

I dunno. I know Aveline and Varric have been helping to keep Anders and Merrill safe. Varric's been bribing a lot of people.

Except for all those times Hawke and company get attacked on the streets and she can use blood magic, or eve regular magic. Nobody knows about any of that? Come on. Someone in Darktown or Lowtown must want to earn some cash by turning in a blood mage.

They're all furniture people that can't speak!

I wouldn't mind having Templars stop by Hawke's place to interrogate him about his friends and he can either lie or -- if he's a blood mage -- mind control them!

"These are not the mages you're looking for"

But I wouldn't want to turn them in then. Merrill never. If I were making the game though the player could turn in Anders. Just.... sometime after the endgame. Give the player the option to tell Anders that he has to be turned in and Anders will agree.

But I also would've done a lot of things differently regarding the Chantry KABLOOEY scene, so it would've been better.

It's hard to accurately say what I'm trying to say I think without divulging my ideas for my fanfic of DAII. I don't want to give things away.

For this point, 2 templars or 200 is not relevant. The point is, Hawke's own sister gets arrested. But not Anders or Merrill . . because of Hawke's influence? He'd protect them, but not his sister?

Kirkwall makes no sense as a setting for this game, and it's treatment of Hawke and friends contradicts the scenario we're expected to accept as occurring in Kirkwall.

I like to think that Hawke does protect Bethany by killing people like Kerras, Alrik, and other Templars that need to be killed while letting her be happy and trusting Thrask to watch over her.

I like to also think that Hawke and Varric have people inside the Circle keeping an eye on Bethany and protecting her from within.

She's happy, Hawke's happy, and so on. Of course, it's just another instance of my roleplaying fixing somewhat (imo for this particular thing) bad writing

[lobi]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I failed to see why Thrask had any relevence to the conversation, I wanted you to elaborate because It didn't make any sense for ou to be brining him up.  I still do not.

I have no interest in discussing Thrask and whatever dark motivations you insist on seeing.  Thrask was foolish for consorting with blood mages and necromancers, not malicious.

Good day

 

Orsino's request leads you to Thrask. There is your relevence. Do you refuse to examine the implications of this series of events in relation to the motives and personality of Orsino simply because you like Thrask. Perhaps you can start a new group 'Thrask likes teh mages, kawaii'. You could have just ignored what I wrote. However you did not, you persisted. I helpfully explained my opinion of thrask and then you say oh but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Stop lying to yourself, accept responsibility and find some humility.

Orsino is First Enchanter he has reports crossing his desk just like Meredith. In fact he has access to more information than Meredith. A Senior Enchanters ability to be informed and manipulate events was first addressed in Origins. 

Orsino knew about Quinton, He knew about Tarohne, he knew about the meeting in Hightown, those at the meeting in Hightown knew you were coming, How did they know?

Hawk is capable and good at following trails, Orsino knows this. At each battle Hawk is killing Templars and Mages, not the Bloodmages Orsino said were meeting at High town. There are three battles on this quest and at each one Hawk is expected.

Finally Hawk arrives at Thrasks camp, Hawks sibling is bound the scene is primed for a bloodbath. Hawk finally faces some bloodmages but they are the Starkhaven faction not members of Orsino's circle as he stated.

Hawk is victorious and returns. Orsino barely comments on the deaths of so many innocents at Hawks hands instead bemoans 'helping Meredith' to cover his tracks.

Hawk is good at following trails, Orsino knows this. Hawk knows about Quinton, Hawk knows about Tarohne. Hawk is getting too close. 
Orsino just tried to kill you.

Modifié par lobi, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:09 .

[Heimdall]

lobi wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I failed to see why Thrask had any relevence to the conversation, I wanted you to elaborate because It didn't make any sense for ou to be brining him up.  I still do not.

I have no interest in discussing Thrask and whatever dark motivations you insist on seeing.  Thrask was foolish for consorting with blood mages and necromancers, not malicious.

Good day

 

Orsino's request leads you to Thrask. There is your relevence. Do you refuse to examine the implications of this series of events in relation to the motives and personality of Orsino simply because you like Thrask. Perhaps you can start a new group 'Thrask likes teh mages, kawaii'. You could have just ignored what I wrote. However you did not, you persisted. I helpfully explained my opinion of thrask and then you say oh but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Stop lying to yourself, accept responsibility and find some humility.

Orsino is First Enchanter he has reports crossing his desk just like Meredith. In fact he has access to more information than Meredith. A Senior Enchanters ability to be informed and manipulate events was first addressed in Origins. 

Orsino knew about Quinton, He knew about Tarohne, he knew about the meeting in Hightown, those at the meeting in Hightown knew you were coming, How did they know. Orsino.
Hawk is capable and good at following trails, Orsino knows this. There are three battles on this quest and at each one Hawk is expected.
At each battle Hawk is killing Templars and Mages, not the Bloodmages Orsino said were meeting at High town.
Finally Hawk arrives at Thrasks camp, Hawks sibling is bound the scene is primed for a bloodbath. Hawk finally faces some bloodmages but they are the Starkhaven faction not members of Orsino's circle as he stated.
Hawk is victorious and returns. Orsino barely comments on the deaths of so many innocents at Hawks hands instead bemoans 'helping Meredith' to cover his tracks.

Hawk is capable and good at following trails, Orsino knows this. Hawk knows about Quinton, Hawk knows about Tarohne. Hawk is getting too close. Orsino just tried to kill you.

Alright, I'll play.

Orsino had no knowledge of who was behind the meetings between templars and blood mages.  Thrask's presence would only have relevence if it was the case that Orsino knew about him.  Disliking Thrask does not give hiim relevence in the discussion.  Stop trying to demonize him with baseless remarks, it demeans you.

I fail to see where you come up with this idea, except that a First Enchanter might have Mage informants a Knight Commander wouldn't.  Of course, Meredith has many times the resources of Orsino, so I fail to see why this matters.  Not to mention, having the capability (Which he really doesn't as much as you seem to believe) does not prove the use of that capability.

Orsino did not know about Tarohne, he knew Quentin was working on blood magic theories(Though the extent of his knowledge of Quentin's activities is never explicitly stated), he knew there was a meeting in Hightown.  What leads you to the idea that it was Orsino?  Any blood mage thrall or Templar Informant could have done the deed, seen Hawke walk out of the Gallows.
Of course they were expecting him, after the first they knew someone was coming after them.

Blood mages are hardly innocents, especially when they attack on sight.  Why wouldn't he be upset with interrupting a coup against the bane of his existence?  Actually the Starkhaven mages joined the Kirkwall Circle after they were recaptured.  They were Kirkwall Circle Mages.

Now that simply doesn't make sense.  Only one of those has any connection to Orsino and Hawke doesn't even know about it.  What information Hawke had was in his possession for three years without making any moves against Orsino, the First Enchanter has no reason to suddenly get jumpy.  Especially when he is only the quest giver when you side with him in public.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:13 .