344 réponses à ce sujet

[robarcool]

Gatt9 wrote...

United_Strafes wrote...

Why do they need to take a lesson? Is Mass Effect a bad game, and whoever said Gears were bad games?

Primarily because ME2's combat was downright abyssmal.  The AI is horribly braindead,  it goes to the point it's supposed to stand,  and stays there endlessly repeating the shoot/pause cycle regardless of what you do.  It'll never try and flank you,  never try and flush you out,  it'll never try to do anything.

Even the sections where it appears to be aggressive is just it moving to it's scripted location where the Dev's guessed most people would be.  You can see this in those sections where you're facing a YMIR,  and get yourself killed several times in different places,  it'll always move along the exact same path,  with all of the other units moving along the exact same path,  to the exact same position,  every time. 

Sometimes it's even worse,  such as the section in Omega's apartments where you get ambushed with your side of the field having a two level structure.  Move up to the top of the structure,  a couple of the "Dogs" will come up,  and everyone else will stand around on the first floor in their positions.

I actually considered countering Phaedon and Spiffysquee's videos by getting my allies killed,  and then leaving my shepherd crouched behind cover for an hour while the AI just endlessly repeated it's animation loops shooting at me when they could never hit me.  It actually works,  I discovered this one day when I got a 20 minute phone call while playing and left the console running.

Well, I have played on insanity (and only on it) and I do die if I leave my laptop for enough time. Your argument is full of air my friend. It blows.

Modifié par robarcool, 27 septembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[robarcool]

LeVaughnX wrote...

A quick reply to this thread.

During my current run of Mass Effect 2 I came across the ONLY reason that makes me put Mass Effect 2 down; the fuc*ing A.I. screw-bugs. Let me explain what occured, where, when, etc.

I'm doing an Insanity Run and the first spot the A.I. retard bug appeared is during Mordins Recruitment Mission. Zaeed and Miranda were told to move behind cover; Miranda ran behind cover and crouched instead of engaging cover, thus making her not only IGNORE TARGETS but when she did fire a shot it was directly into the wall she used for cover (same went for her powers). Zaeed on the other hand stood inside a doorway then moved about two inches into the room and froze. He shouted ""CAN'T MAKE IT"" or ""GONNA NEED A LIFT"" as I kept trying to get him to find and engage in cover. Eventually they both died and I was forced to clear the room out alone; very hard...

Second time it occured; Archangels mission - basement run - took the left hallway (the smaller one thats tight quarters) second. During this walk I had to go around a corner to meet my doom at the hands of a flamethrower who would not move. Zaeed would not go around the corner and engage cover, so he jumped in the flamethrowers path and died while I spent nearly half an hour trying to kill it on my own.


The A.I. needs fixed, badly....

Gears squaddies are definitely having more health to keep them from dying frequently (someone has said that probably). I have only played the first Gears (PC) and it semed to me that way. I ME, squadmates have small amount of health which contributes to their frequent deaths. The AI is bad too, but not as bad as you make it look like.

[Epic777]

Terror_K wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

^^ Still an upgrade from ME1

I think this is debatable, and personally that it's hard to really say one was better over the other when it came to squaddie A.I. really. I do think that enemy A.I. in ME2 was slightly better than in ME1, but in both cases the enemies weren't partucularly bright. Squad A.I. is a tougher issue. I think that while the ME1 squaddies were more likely to do really silly things like standing in one spot shooting at a wall instead of an enemy and running back and forth in the same spot, they were actually a lot more capable and deadly than the ME2 squaddies were in combat and were just more helpful as a whole. I tended to feel like I was working with them and them with me playing ME1 and would more often direct them in different places, whereas in ME2 I tended to ignore them and almost forget they were there outside of cutscenes because they seemed almost superfluous.

The AI in ME1 still had issues mainly steeming from cover

My take:
Both games had some issues with commanding squad members particularly maneuvering squaddies into cover. As cover is far more essential in ME2, squaddies not taking cover properly is magnified. ME1 most squaddies have protection abilites such as immunity and barrier and that also takes some of the sting out of being 'out of cover'.

[Heather Cline]

Yes the cover issue was extremely annoying, especially when squad members would get hit and be knocked out of cover and then would never go back into cover. you had to take time to re-order them to go back into cover and a lot of times it didn't work right. then they would get killed and you had to either use a medigel to revive them or let them stay dead. it isn't the best system, i'm hoping for an improvement to it in ME3.

[Sowtaaw]

the squadmates need way better shields and armor to go toe to toe with enemies.

[Heather Cline]

ME1 had better armor and shields than ME2 by far. ME2 took away all the good stuff that ME1 had. I say bring back the stuff from ME1 for armor and shields, and weaponry.

[Epic777]

~edit ~ Don't want to derail this into ME1 vs ME2

Modifié par Epic777, 27 septembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Terror_K wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

^^ Still an upgrade from ME1

I think this is debatable, and personally that it's hard to really say one was better over the other when it came to squaddie A.I. really. I do think that enemy A.I. in ME2 was slightly better than in ME1, but in both cases the enemies weren't partucularly bright. Squad A.I. is a tougher issue. I think that while the ME1 squaddies were more likely to do really silly things like standing in one spot shooting at a wall instead of an enemy and running back and forth in the same spot, they were actually a lot more capable and deadly than the ME2 squaddies were in combat and were just more helpful as a whole. I tended to feel like I was working with them and them with me playing ME1 and would more often direct them in different places, whereas in ME2 I tended to ignore them and almost forget they were there outside of cutscenes because they seemed almost superfluous.

I don't think so. ME1 suffers from huge balancing issues which gets in the way of everything on the combat and can make the experience flows from frustrating to boring easy sometimes, as ME2...well, doesn't. Squadmates can be deadlier/harder to kill because of that, like Ash and enemy krogans being almost invincible/annoying to kill because of Immunity or Liara because of biotics in ME1 being biotics in ME1. And I think they're much, much more necessary in ME2 because of the incentive of using their powers together with yours in ME2 because of the global cooldown and the different protections of armor/shields. Not to mention Grunt, who would behave differently and have an exclusive krogan tackle all Wrex fans wished he had in ME1.
And geez, you already mentioned how they're silly. Just seeing that they were able to take cover in ME2 and never again shooting walls made me have a sigh of relief.
There were many improvements on the combat in general, AI was one of them both squad and enemy. Seeing the progress going through ME1 to ME2 to DLC on Lair of the Shadow Broker, I can easily say they're on the right direction.

[Terror_K]

I won't argue that squaddies (and even Shepard) were far tougher in ME1 than they seemed to be in ME2, and that some of the DLCs showed promise when it came to superior A.I., tactics, level design and combat as a whole, particularly LotSB and Overlord, and even Arrival to a degree (though team A.I. simply isn't a factor there). But I do question whether much of the progress from ME1 to ME2 was the right direction to take, even if the DLC improved on things. Again, ME2 was too much of a case of TPS combat elements just being wedged into a game that has an RPG side to it too.

[tonnactus]

who would know wrote...

Agree that squad behaviour could be more situationally reactive.

But for those arguing that the squad in ME2 may as well have not existed, did you never manually use their powers?

Their powers just increase killing speed a bit.There it ends. The only difference i noticed was with Liara in Lair of Shadowbroker,who really had two real crowd control biotic powers.

[Hyperion II]

JeffZero wrote...

Sounds like they've got a real winner on their hands with Gears of War 3, I guess, but personally I play Mass Effect for its story, characters and atmosphere. Bioware not 'fixing' this doesn't matter to me one bit.

I'm with you on this one.

[tonnactus]

Terror_K wrote...
 I think that while the ME1 squaddies were more likely to do really silly things like standing in one spot shooting at a wall instead of an enemy and running back and forth in the same spot, they were actually a lot more capable and deadly than the ME2 squaddies were in combat and were just more helpful as a whole. I tended to feel like I was working with them and them with me playing ME1 and would more often direct them in different places, whereas in ME2 I tended to ignore them and almost forget they were there outside of cutscenes because they seemed almost superfluous.

Exactly.They were durable,so one mistake didnt kill them in one hit. And they had real crowd control  abilities like sabotage,damping or lift.
Not only usefull as defense layer removers....

[tonnactus]

robarcool wrote...

Well, I have played on insanity (and only on it) and I do die if I leave my laptop for enough time. Your argument is full of air my friend. It blows.

Stop joking.Not even krogans and dogs move behind a certain line on all missions.On all difficulties.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Terror_K wrote...

I won't argue that squaddies (and even Shepard) were far tougher in ME1 than they seemed to be in ME2, and that some of the DLCs showed promise when it came to superior A.I., tactics, level design and combat as a whole, particularly LotSB and Overlord, and even Arrival to a degree (though team A.I. simply isn't a factor there). But I do question whether much of the progress from ME1 to ME2 was the right direction to take, even if the DLC improved on things. Again, ME2 was too much of a case of TPS combat elements just being wedged into a game that has an RPG side to it too.

Well, that's ok. I have no problems with that.

I can easily say I prefer the combat in ME2 to the first Gears of War (I haven't played the others since they weren't released on the PC) and the series NEEDED some of those tweaks on the TPS combat side of things (they already had them) like the guns having almost no recoil and being more pew pew pew than bang bang bang, the ridiculousness of stat based accuracy, etc, to make it more immersive and fun but that's another story.

[robarcool]

tonnactus wrote...

robarcool wrote...

Well, I have played on insanity (and only on it) and I do die if I leave my laptop for enough time. Your argument is full of air my friend. It blows.

Stop joking.Not even krogans and dogs move behind a certain line on all missions.On all difficulties.

Get into the playfield buddy and stop lurking in the shadows. Then you will feel the heat.

[NugatRevolution]

Most of the time during ME2, I've had no problems with the AI, and they were decent supporters.

SOME of the time, however, they were just godawful. They would stand out of cover, and when they were ordered to go back into cover, they'd take the most exposed route possible. Or they'd stand there as they were swarmed by enemies and not bother trying to get into a different position and subsequently die. Or they'd be in cover, then just stand up and get gunned down. Or they'd refuse to obey orders.

I learned to fight battles by myself in ME2.. It was either be self-sufficient, or constantly baby your squad, and turn the game to brothers in arms.

Better AI is necessary if the game is to be more fast paced. Both enemy and allied AI alike.

[luzburg]

LeVaughnX wrote...

I just bought and finished Gears of War 3 and man was I impressed. I laughed, I cried, I even nearly pissed myself because of the high action, emotion, and amazement of this game. The graphics rocked, the story was solid, the gameplay was better than ever, and the A.I. was "perfect". I never once had a problem with the Squad A.I. in Gears of War but in Gears 3 the squad A.I. just went to a whole new fu*king level. Instead of being so powerful and smart that they basically played the game for you - they were excellent supporters who knew what the hell to do all on their own! If I got "downed" they ran over and picked me up! If I had trouble with some ass*ole one of my squaddies ran over and began providing cover! It was awesome as hell!

Now do note this didn't take away any difficulty with the enemies mind you; I still had di*k faces bum rushing me constantly and forcing me to tactically exaust myself to keep from being flaked constantly. The only problem I had was that I couldn't direct the A.I. where to go - but they seemed to be fine on their own so it was just me being picky.

To the point - Mass Effect has suffered for me in the squad department. The A.I. in ME1 was terrible but excuseable since the enemy A.I. wasn't all that challenging either (especially when you have infinte rounds to crank out at them). However in Mass Effect 2 I felt like I didn't even have a squad. Heres why...

- They always CROUCHED in cover instead of ENGAGING in TAKING COVER. Meaning they would crouch behind the cover or near it and never fire a single shot nor would they lean in and out of cover. It was really bad and it was a game design flaw.

- They died almost as soon as the action started. I would frequently find them running straight into enemy fire with no real logic.

- Rarely did they listen to my commands and move to where I put the squad thing. They would shout ""CAN'T GET THERE!"" every five seconds which just grinded my friggen gears.

Over all I felt like I was playing baby sitter with the A.I. during ME1 and ME2. This is one problem (out of many) that will cause me to honestly not buy Mass Effect 3. I'm not trolling nor am I "raging" but this is an honest problem I found with the two games that Bioware "claimed" to have solved but didn't. I don't enjoy having a squad that doesn't do anything I ask and doesn't do sh*t in terms of usefullness.

Thoughts?

I think the ai in me 2 in general was okay, the lotsb ai on liara was very good.
if you look at the me3 demo videos you can clearly se an improvment in combat
i my case id never had a problem of them dying all the time
if you play me2 "QE" buttons should be used more than "WASD"
anyway godbye and BF3 BETA HERE I COME!!!!!!!!!!!
WIHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!

Modifié par luzburg, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:02 .

[sp0ck 06]

I think the OP has a really good point here. ME2's AI was atrocious. Playing the new Gears, your teammates actually feel like teammates, and enemies aren't just buffed up with tons of health, protections, and damage. They flank you, flush you out with grenades, lay down suppressing fire, and generally seem to actually want to kill you.  They also don't magically have a tracking device on you that causes them to always know exactly where the player is and have perfect laser beam accuracy, even when attempting a sneaky flank (something it seems all enemies in ME1 and 2 had).

I think this needs to be a point of emphasis for ME3. In both ME games, your squadmates are utterly useless in terms of gameplay. I usually just park mine in the back of whereever I'm fighting so I can use their powers manually. I'd love to at least see a DA style tactics option where you can assign basic commands.

Right now, we have "Go there", "Follow", and "Attack." Half the time, telling a squaddie to go somewhere results in them either standing out in the open waiting to be instantly killed, or cowering behind cover without moving or shooting. The "Attack" command does not seem to work at all for me. In a game as advanced and cutting edge as Mass Effect, is this really the best that can be done. There has been zero change in squaddies since ME1, actually I think they were more useful in 1 because they didn't die as quickly.

One more gripe: on the 360 controller, using your D-pad to hotkey squaddie powers can cause a lot of problems. Since the command is the same as "Go there," if you don't perfectly line up the power the result is the squaddie running like an idiot across the room. This renders those hotkeys essentially useless, since you usually need to bring up the pause menu to line up the power anyways.

Look, I love ME, probably my favorite series of games, but after playing Gears 3 all week, I am struck by it's incredible level of polish. Especially in regards to the AI. I know its a totally different game than ME3, but I hope some of you guys at BW are playing it and taking note of what a true finished product can be. Pushing ME3 back a few months would be worth it to deliver a better game.

Modifié par sp0ck 06, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[tonnactus]

sp0ck 06 wrote...
 There has been zero change in squaddies since ME1, actually I think they were more useful in 1 because they didn't die as quickly.

Fully developed and with good equipment they actually  hardly ever died. (on insanity of course)

Modifié par tonnactus, 27 septembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[Trakarg]

Improved squad AI would be a great thing for this game.

But, rather than agree with you, OP, i'm going to froth and snarl because you mentioned GoW3.

wait, what?  No, it's a good idea, and the OP has a good point.  Get over the Gears hate people.