13 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Looking back at the Chant of Light it states that the inhabitants of the material world were given a divine spark with the ability to shape the world and return to the Maker in dreams.  Whilst all have a limited ability to return in dreams, it is mages and particularly dreamers who make fullest use of this.    It definitely says that magic is a gift of the Maker but that it's misuse makes the user accursed.  If the misuse of magic was widespread among a population and the Maker turned his back on his creation, that cound account for why it was no longer universally available. 

I have a theory that the Rite of Tranquility was originally devised in Tevinter to silence dissident mages but keep them alive as an example and that the Chantry later adopted the practice.  If those original dissident mages were in contact with the Maker that would have made the old god inspired Magisters even more determined to silence them.

Regardless of whether the above is true, it was the Makers intention that his creations should have the ability to contact him in dreams.  It was also his intention that they should have free will to acknowledge or deny him.  So it would seem to me that the Rite of Tranquility is in direct contravention of the Maker's intentions, since the Tranquil can no longer contact the Fade and effectively no longer have free will.

If Sandal does have a signficiant role in the story as the Maker's prophet, then maybe it is when the Maker arises that the true magic will return.  He is clearly able to do a lot more than just enchant items and seems to have a charmed life.  May be the Maker is with him.

[whykikyouwhy]

While it is possible that the Maker, if we take him to be the being (or set of beings) that created mortal life, gave his creations free will, he seems very much the 'jealous god' as the Chantry teaches that man's belief in the old gods caused the Maker to turn away. And depending on what source you look at, the Blight/taint is a curse from the Maker for that abandonment of him, or for the hubris committed by the magisters. The jealous god stance though already puts in place a precedence for the Maker to cut his children off from contacting him - it's a bit hypocritical, or at least muddled: 'I want you to choose, but when you choose against me, I will turn my back on you....even though through love, I gave you a choice."

I think Sandal is definitely a key to all of this somehow (or just a dwarf-shaped sentient salamander). But I never got the impression that Sandal had any belief in the Maker - though maybe he does, which would be quite the interesting issue to arise between dwarven and human concepts of faith.



Edit - Fixed an unfortunate typo.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 25 septembre 2011 - 01:09 .

[Gervaise]

I make no asertions as to what Sandal does or does not believe. I was just suggesting that as an alternative to the other interpretations of his strange little prophesy he could be referring to the Maker. Mind you, he could as easily be referring to the 6th old god, Razikiel I think, who is the god of mysteries. May be if someone can get to him and release him before the darkspawn do, then he will arise untainted and that is when the magic will return.

Sandal is a enigma because he certainly seems to possess a unique magic which allows him to wipe out swathes of darkspawn and in DA2 freeze/crystalise an ogre permanently, coupled with a strange knowing sort of innocence. May be he is just a tease of the writer as has no significance whatsoever but I do find him intrieguing - as indeed did the Circle Mages in Ferelden which is why Bohdan decided to leave. I seem to recall him saying something about being invited to the Chantry in Orlais by the Divine - if this is an accurate recollection then it would seem that he is regarded as important to future storylines. Rather like Flemeth, he keeps cropping up and dropping cryptic comments. I hope they do lead somewhere.

[esper]

Regarding to Sandal I think that some here on the board teorized that he only said that profety line when the old god baby exits in Thedas... I don't remember who had that theory orignally, but I like that the best. Properly because I am oppossed to ever finding out an answer as to wherever the Maker or any of the gods exits.
(I don't regard old gods as gods, but rather powerfull entities that claimed that they were gods.)

[Gervaise]

Actually that is exactly what Andraste teaches - they were powerful demon/spirits who crossed the veil and were looked upon by mortals as gods. May be these spirits inhabited the minds of dragons because these creatures are very powerful and long lived or may be there were shape shifting mages who could transform into dragons, like Flemeth, and invited possession, much like the relationship between Anders and Justice, because they were promised godhood. This is what the old gods subsequently promised the Magisters except they were being encouraged to go through the Fade in the opposite direction and that is what caused it to go wrong.

[Gervaise]

In response to Whykiki - I know I tend to bang on a bit about this but there is a big difference between what the Chantry claim about the Maker and what is contained in the Chant of Light that we have been given access to. Now granted it takes 2 weeks to recit the entire chant so there is a great deal we have yet to see, but from what I have seen thus far, there is nothing about the Maker being jealous - only demons. What is apparent is that there are certain fundamental laws of the Maker's universe that if ignored will have disasterous consequences. So trying to cross from the material world to the spiritual (Fade) in physical form is a big no, no, and result in corruption of both sides by the interaction between the two. Now the Chantry interpets this as the Maker's punishment for man's sin but if say you tell a child, do not eat those berries because they will be bad for you, the child eats them and has a horried stomach ache, have you personally punished them for ignoring you? Also when spirits physically cross from the Fade to the material world, this also has very bad effects, although not as bad as the former, and the Maker has intervened when this has occurred to try and mitigate the bad effects - such as imprisoning the usurper spirits/old gods.

As for the Maker ignoring mankind. If they, of their free will, chose to follow false gods, why is the Maker the bad guy for respecting that choice? Actually everything in the Chant of Light suggests that the Maker is still concerned for the individual, just will not step in on a world wide scale until he is convinced that people want him to. Also the Maker is essentially a powerful spirit and the idea that you communicate with him through your dreams also points to certain fundemental truths as to the relationship that this spirit has with the material world. If the Maker is not responding to the Chantry's communication, this would seem to me to point to the fact that they are not on the same wavelength, as evidenced by the number of contradictions between their teaching and the Chant of Light, not that the Maker has abandoned mankind.
Mind you, I am not as in the know as some poster, so may be the developers have already given information on the Maker that confirms the Chantry's teaching and makes my beliefs a nonsense but until such time as this appears in game, I will make the best of it I can from what has been supplied.

Personally I like the moral teaching of the Chant of Light, am quite happy to adhere to it and promote it and would like nothing better than be allowed to march up to the steps of the Chantry in Orlais, sit myself down in fasting mode (as per Sebastian's ancestor in Starkhaven) and point out to passers by what the Chant of Light really says and how this differs from the behaviour of the ruling class in Orlais. Alternatively set out across Thedas with my companions and invite all those we meet to join our pilgrimage, making the Chant as we go. Then see how long it takes for someone to try and silence us, bearing in mind if we go first to the alienages, poor districts, fugitive mages, I would imagine our numbers could quickly run into thousands. Of course that's not going to happen in game but you can still dream!

[esper]

I don't know about the chant of light as I didn't read the codexes in da:o do to it being a horrible thing to read through on ps3, but I certainly don't like the religion the Chantry preaches. I do, however, admit that there is a large chance that isn't the same religion Andraste believed in as faith evolves over time.
I don't believe in the Maker, but I don't want his existence confirmed and disproved. The idea that the Maker is just a powerful spirit would for be the same as disproving his exitence as a  god. (I don't buy the first children theory).

I am not sure that the old god were demons or spirits. I tend to believe that they were some sort of dragon mages... It is difficult to say how intelligent dragons (espcially high dragons) actually are, but it is not impossible to believe that some intelligent dragons were born with an aware connection to the Fade.

Modifié par esper, 25 septembre 2011 - 01:54 .

[dragonflight288]

Overall an interesting theory. One I would be more inclined to listen to than the average revered mother blowing smoke out her head. I think your theory should also note that the Chantry was just one of many Andrastian cults which happened to be backed by a conquering Orlesian Emperor because they share his forceful expansionist ideas. The Chantry and Orlais or so linked throughout history and with Exalted Marches that it becomes almost impossible to separate the two from each other.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

While it is possible that the Maker, if we take him to be the being (or set of beings) that created mortal life, gave his creations free will, he seems very much the 'jealous god' as the Chantry teaches that man's belief in the old gods caused the Maker to turn away. And depending on what source you look at, the Blight/taint is a curse from the Maker for that abandonment of him, or for the hubris committed by the magisters. The jealous god stance though already puts in place a precedence for the Maker to cut his children off from contacting him - it's a bit hypocritical, or at least muddled: 'I want you to choose, but when you choose against me, I will turn my back on you....even though through love, I gave you a choice."

I think Sandal is definitely a key to all of this somehow (or just a dwarf-shaped sentient salamander). But I never got the impression that Sandal had any belief in the Maker - though maybe he does, which would be quite the interesting issue to arise between dwarven and human concepts of faith.



Edit - Fixed an unfortunate typo.

I don't see how it's hypocritical.  One can choose to believe and the Maker will take that person to his side.  If one prefers to have nothing to do with him, the Maker will indeed honor that desire and have nothing to do with said person.

Nothing particularly hypocritical about it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tranquil still have free will. They just decide to act supposedly based on logic. David Gaider said that if a tranquil saw a reason to disobey and order they would.

I got the impression that Sandal's prophecy was referring to someone else. I'm of the opinion it's Fen'Harel. Although it may be one of the Old Gods. He describes the events happening "when he rises." Rising sounds like something that Fen'Harel might be doing if he were to return. I feel like if the Maker were to return to the world then it wouldn't be described as "rising" from somewhere else.

[whykikyouwhy]

jamesp81 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

While it is possible that the Maker, if we take him to be the being (or set of beings) that created mortal life, gave his creations free will, he seems very much the 'jealous god' as the Chantry teaches that man's belief in the old gods caused the Maker to turn away. And depending on what source you look at, the Blight/taint is a curse from the Maker for that abandonment of him, or for the hubris committed by the magisters. The jealous god stance though already puts in place a precedence for the Maker to cut his children off from contacting him - it's a bit hypocritical, or at least muddled: 'I want you to choose, but when you choose against me, I will turn my back on you....even though through love, I gave you a choice."

I think Sandal is definitely a key to all of this somehow (or just a dwarf-shaped sentient salamander). But I never got the impression that Sandal had any belief in the Maker - though maybe he does, which would be quite the interesting issue to arise between dwarven and human concepts of faith.



Edit - Fixed an unfortunate typo.

I don't see how it's hypocritical.  One can choose to believe and the Maker will take that person to his side.  If one prefers to have nothing to do with him, the Maker will indeed honor that desire and have nothing to do with said person.

Nothing particularly hypocritical about it.

That's why I said "hypocritcal, or at least muddled." Hypocritical was used for lack of a better word. If the Maker is said to love his children, and to allow them choice, the muddled bit would be that in is children exercising that choice and thus choosing to go elsewhere, the Maker then abandons them. He gives but does not give freely or unconditionally. There is a definite desire for something in return.

Which seems much like human behavior, is all.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

While it is possible that the Maker, if we take him to be the being (or set of beings) that created mortal life, gave his creations free will, he seems very much the 'jealous god' as the Chantry teaches that man's belief in the old gods caused the Maker to turn away. And depending on what source you look at, the Blight/taint is a curse from the Maker for that abandonment of him, or for the hubris committed by the magisters. The jealous god stance though already puts in place a precedence for the Maker to cut his children off from contacting him - it's a bit hypocritical, or at least muddled: 'I want you to choose, but when you choose against me, I will turn my back on you....even though through love, I gave you a choice."

I think Sandal is definitely a key to all of this somehow (or just a dwarf-shaped sentient salamander). But I never got the impression that Sandal had any belief in the Maker - though maybe he does, which would be quite the interesting issue to arise between dwarven and human concepts of faith.



Edit - Fixed an unfortunate typo.

I don't see how it's hypocritical.  One can choose to believe and the Maker will take that person to his side.  If one prefers to have nothing to do with him, the Maker will indeed honor that desire and have nothing to do with said person.

Nothing particularly hypocritical about it.

That's why I said "hypocritcal, or at least muddled." Hypocritical was used for lack of a better word. If the Maker is said to love his children, and to allow them choice, the muddled bit would be that in is children exercising that choice and thus choosing to go elsewhere, the Maker then abandons them. He gives but does not give freely or unconditionally. There is a definite desire for something in return.

Which seems much like human behavior, is all.

If they choose to go elsewhere, it doesn't sound like the Maker is leaving them.  It sounds to me like they're leaving the Maker.  And he's good enough about free will to not pursue people that do not wish to follow him.

JMO, worth what you paid for it.

[whykikyouwhy]

jamesp81 wrote...

If they choose to go elsewhere, it doesn't sound like the Maker is leaving them.  It sounds to me like they're leaving the Maker.  And he's good enough about free will to not pursue people that do not wish to follow him.

JMO, worth what you paid for it.

The Chantry teaches that the Maker abandoned his children (this is the explanation for why the Maker does not actively participate in the lives of the faithful or directly answer their prayers) However, there seems to be some discrepancies as to the reason. The codex entry of Andraste: Bride of the Maker states this:

"The Maker wept for His Beloved, cursed Maferath, cursed mankind for their betrayal, and turned once again from creation, taking only Andraste with him. And Our Lady sits still at his side, where she still urges Him to take pity on His children."

That was why I used the word "abandon."

And belief in the Maker, by and for the player or the characters, is, of course, subjective.

[Blacklash93]

Gervaise wrote...

Actually that is exactly what Andraste teaches - they were powerful demon/spirits who crossed the veil and were looked upon by mortals as gods. May be these spirits inhabited the minds of dragons because these creatures are very powerful and long lived or may be there were shape shifting mages who could transform into dragons, like Flemeth, and invited possession, much like the relationship between Anders and Justice, because they were promised godhood. This is what the old gods subsequently promised the Magisters except they were being encouraged to go through the Fade in the opposite direction and that is what caused it to go wrong.

The Old Gods are not simply dragon abominations or shapeshifting mages. That would not explain why the taint is so connected to them as it is alien to even spirits and demons.