3434 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

And in that choice, I'd rather have the rest of the team's backing than the promise of a manipulative serial killer whose real identity would jeopardize teammates' trust in Shepard.
How can a team trust Shepard if the commander's willing to replace a member at the cost of their life?

No she wouldn't jeopardize anything. I would actually tell my team who she is and rather she NOT pretend to be Samara, I just didn't have that choice.
How can Jacob trust me? I helped him with his father, we are bros.
How can Garrus trust me? I helped him with his ravenge, we are bros.
How can Kasumi trust me? I helped her with her quest, even let her keep that device.
How can Jack trust me? I helped her to blow up the base.

I can go on. My crew can not like Morinth all they like. There are a lot of people on the crew who don't like eachother, they would still trust my Shepard.

[D.Kain]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

You're avoiding the topic. We're not talking about whether it is okay, we're talking about the response to the wrong activity. If a slave goes on a rampage and kills all of the "master" 's children, while eight other slaves remain doing their jobs, one can't say that the fact that he was enslaved caused him to kill the kids, because the other eight were in the same position and did NOT do the action. Same for Ardat Yakshi. Regardless of how wrong it is to lock them up, the fact that other Ardat Yakshi can live in seclusion tells us that the "wrong" situation does not drive them to do a wrong thing. The escaping AY choose the wrong thing for themselves.

That one slave didn't do a wrong thing, and neither did Morinth. But as I said the thing with her is probably her courage and love for freedom.

Dude.....killing innocent children.....not cool.  It would be one thing if that slave killed a child soldier who had a gun trained on him, and only did it in self-defense.....but that is not the case in the example above.

Not cool? Indeed, totally not cool, actually very bad. Blame the slavers though not the slaves.

[PauseforEffect]

Kaiiin, didn't we have this discussion about why Shepard is worried about Morinth keeping her identity secret?

[D.Kain]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

It doesn't matter. Morinth still made the choice. That means that she CHOSE what followed, which includes killing innocents.

Ok, so? The other choice was to die. Oh and something worse than death.

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

Kaiiin, didn't we have this discussion about why Shepard is worried about Morinth keeping her identity secret?

Not on the ship, no. I respect my crew. Nobody else needs to know. But I want to be honest with my crew. 
But then again I said that maybe I will reveal her to everybody to try to solve the AY problem.

[D.Kain]

I actually like how this discussion became a lot more calm. lol

[D.Kain]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

But it was still a choice. A few dozen pages back, you were arguing that she DIDN'T choose, that the environment (childhood, etc.) forced her to do what she did, that she had no choice in the matter.

Oh, and "live in seclusion" is not dying, or worse than death, by a long shot.

Ok, so I meant what I say right now then. lol 

That she didn't have enough choice to make a good one. So I don't blame her for her choice. 

The thing is that seclusion is worse than dying for Morinth. Not for you, not for me, maybe not for the other AY. But for Morinth it was worse than death, and that's what matters.

[D.Kain]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

we all must bear the brunt of our choices, no matter how constricted the circumstances might be. She made a choice, she suffers the consequences. (I mean, look at the series, for goodness sake. Mass Effect. We're expecting our choices to have consequences. We may have wished there were more options for say the Rachni choice, but we fully expect to receive consequences for our OWN actions) And even then, she didn't HAVE to kill innocents like Nef, she could have killed "bad" people.

And you don't KNOW that seclusion was "worse than death" for Morinth. All we know is she didn't want to be in seclusion. You're inferring there. It's more likely (inference here as well) that the pleasure of the meld is stronger that not being hunted.

And I hate to do this, but I have to go. It's after 2 A.M. where I am and I still have a lab prep to do for a class in...eight hours?!

I'll be back later.

See you tommorrow.

But I'm going to say that we don't know too many things about Morinth at all. Some of your point are also just assumptions, as are my points.

And I suggest to everybody who is not lazy to read the whole Morrinth fan thread, specially the long posts. It is not so big. There are remarkable thoughts there.

Modifié par D.Kain, 04 octobre 2011 - 06:26 .

[AnAccountWithNoName]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Read my edit. You say now that she decides, yet you were saying before that the environment and "upbringing" and "unhappy childhood" caused Morinth two do her deeds.

Realise that Morinth would rather choose to be a teacher for example, but her enviroment didn't give her that choice. In other words was responsible for a completely different life. 

For a different life, maybe, but certainly not responsible for her killing innocents like Nef.

Is responsible because different people by their nature make different choice. Somebody maybe like living in seclusion, Morinth didn't. That's the problem.

It doesn't matter. Morinth still made the choice. That means that she CHOSE what followed, which includes killing innocents.

Agreed.  She has FREE WILL after all, and she misused it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Morinth has the rare honor of being one of the only fictional characters I consider to be completely irredeemable, killing her at least makes sure that no more people will die because of her.

[Dariustwinblade]

This thread is disturbing.

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...
First I didn't get into that pod. Second, if something good was at stake I would think about getting into that pod.

Killing Morinth is at best a half-assed justice. I already told you that Morinth herself is not the main issue, she can stop. Killing Samara is one of the steps to stop Morinth from killing people. And since Samara is one of those responsible for Morinth to start killing it is justice.

Galaxy has to solve all of it's problems, no matter the size. It's how it works - you don't fix the sink, you have water draining on the floor, you don't fix AY problem you have murders. I am not going to go into someones house and try to fix their sink when they tell me that they don't care about the sink. I care for people to treat each other good, I can't MAKE them do that, and if they don't want to do that it's their choice. I can always say that Morinth isn't MY problem in the first place, she is nice to me. If you want ME to fix the problem with Morinth you do what I say to fix it, or leave me alone and deal with it yourself. That's how it works.

Morinth does want to meld with Shepard, but she doesn't want to kill Shepard, she honestly believes he will survive, the proof for that is that Morinth wasn't written, stupid or suicidal.

...And yet she still wants to meld with you.

Morinth can stop?  Since when?  Every source in the game claims that the condition is addicting and the only AY we know that don't go on killing sprees are imprisoned to be sure that they don't.  The melding gets more addictive each and every time, she's been doing it for four hundred years.  Why would she change?  And no, now that Samara isn't chasing her anymore, she has free reign to kill as much as she pleases.  She set herself up as a goddess to be worshiped and only left because Samara ruined her diabolical plans.  Why would she stop now that she won't get caught? 

The Asari do fix the AY already; they imprison them to keep them from murdering others.  That is fixing the sink.  You care for treating people well?  BS, you've villified Morinth's victims and gone to extreme lengths to justify her actions by ignoring arguments and replacing canon with fanfiction to support yourself.  You care about one person who has gone around making a mockery of your "morals".   You can't force others to support your ideas?  Because you just said you'd unleash a predator onto the galaxy unless they saw things your way.   And they *were* fixing it themselves, hence the Justicar and the monastery.

Fanfiction.  She cannot honestly believe that he'd survive considering that all her victims, all the AY victims, die.  She has no reason to think otherwise unless you believe that completely **** argument that she gives you, which is you falling for a trap.

[Bigdoser]

eeh my shepards sometimes keep morinith alive because she is a monster and monsters are useful in fights and as long as she obeys orders, Also as long as my shepard's can keep his or her pants on and don't believe a word she says my shepards have a powerful weapon to use on the collectors. As shepard says when saving morinith, "Morinith will be more useful to me". So I can't think of any other reason to spare morinith since other than she is only good at killing and dominating innocent people/enemies and if you think you need monsters to survive the suicide mission. Personally I hope they don't reduce morinith to a news report or email cause that would suck.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 04 octobre 2011 - 12:41 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

You're avoiding the topic. We're not talking about whether it is okay, we're talking about the response to the wrong activity. If a slave goes on a rampage and kills all of the "master" 's children, while eight other slaves remain doing their jobs, one can't say that the fact that he was enslaved caused him to kill the kids, because the other eight were in the same position and did NOT do the action. Same for Ardat Yakshi. Regardless of how wrong it is to lock them up, the fact that other Ardat Yakshi can live in seclusion tells us that the "wrong" situation does not drive them to do a wrong thing. The escaping AY choose the wrong thing for themselves.

That one slave didn't do a wrong thing, and neither did Morinth. But as I said the thing with her is probably her courage and love for freedom.

So just to be perfectly clear, you're saying that if someone is a enslaved, it's OK for them to murder their "master's" children?  

Bull$#!+.  Complete and total bull$#!+. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

They're given everything they can be given in the circumstances.

The ones who die are the ones who run and can't resist the rapemurdering. They leave a trail.

Not nececerily. They can also embrace melding BECAUSE they are already treated like murders and they have nothing to lose and not hide, or to fight back, or to be an ass in general just because they don't like being treated bad and want to return the favour. Morinth was not one of those to run away and hide,.

Nonsense. 

Either:

1)  They can choose to not manipulate people, meld with them, and kill them, and they become monsters by choice.   No matter what is done to you, it is still your choice to inflict suffering on uninvolved people.  Even if you're starving, it's still your choice whether or not you fill your stomach by killing someone to take their wallet. 

-or-

2)  They can't choose, they rapemurder out of an irresistable compulsion, in which case locking them up is the least bad option available to the other Asari. 

Take your pick, it's only one or the other. 


You've mentioned having faced an addition, and it makes me wonder how you overcame it.  There are certain programs and therapies that emphasize the powerlessness of the individual -- that the addiction has power over them, and that it takes an outside power to overcome it. 

Your excuses for Morinth make it sound like she was powerless to choose the options that didn't hurt random innocent people, that the things other people did have more power over her than she does. 

And you're wrong.  She always had the choice.  We all have the choice. 

No matter how much you hurt, no matter how shattered and ragged and torn apart you are inside, the choice to take that out on people who have nothing to do with it is yours, and no one else's. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:22 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The only minor differenct is that the dog can't control themselve completly and loose all logical though, and Mornith still has control of her actions but it a complete addict.
Other then that it the same case.

Morinth can control her actions, she seems like a stong person that just doesn't want to. And she also doesn't bite me so I myself don't have a problem with her.

If she can choose her actions, then all the responsibility for her actions lies with her. 

We are not machines, we are not just input - process - output systems.  No matter what is done to you, you have the choice in how you respond.  If someone wrongs you, and you have no other recourse, then you direct your response to the one(s) who wronged you.

Not innocent artist girls form a different species half a galaxy and several centuries away. 


Morinth and Morinth alone is responsible for what she has made of her situation. 

[Flamewielder]

There should be consequences to both options, same as with all of life's decisions.

Natural consequence of choosing Morinth: more innocents die, a couple of Shep's enemies die too, Shep gets a good laugh watching Husks beat eachother to gibs and assorted cyber bits.

Natural consequence of choosing Samara: more criminals die, a few clueless innocents die as colateral damage, Shep's enemies get their daddybags Reaved.

Choose whichever you find most enjoyable, it's the whole idea behind the ME concept afterall...

[BlueMagitek]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

You're avoiding the topic. We're not talking about whether it is okay, we're talking about the response to the wrong activity. If a slave goes on a rampage and kills all of the "master" 's children, while eight other slaves remain doing their jobs, one can't say that the fact that he was enslaved caused him to kill the kids, because the other eight were in the same position and did NOT do the action. Same for Ardat Yakshi. Regardless of how wrong it is to lock them up, the fact that other Ardat Yakshi can live in seclusion tells us that the "wrong" situation does not drive them to do a wrong thing. The escaping AY choose the wrong thing for themselves.

That one slave didn't do a wrong thing, and neither did Morinth. But as I said the thing with her is probably her courage and love for freedom.

So just to be perfectly clear, you're saying that if someone is a enslaved, it's OK for them to murder their "master's" children?  

Bull$#!+.  Complete and total bull$#!+. 

He believes that if people don't agree with him, then Morinth should have free reign to feast as much as she wants. 

[FoxHound109]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Morinth has the rare honor of being one of the only fictional characters I consider to be completely irredeemable, killing her at least makes sure that no more people will die because of her.

This. I saw no reason to save Morinth. At all. The game didn't even give me a gameplay mechanic that would count as an incentive (e.g. being stronger than Samara, having better powers, etc.). 

[D.Kain]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

Agreed.  She has FREE WILL after all, and she misused it.

Good morning. Imo she didn't misuse anything.