3434 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Kain]

Dunstan wrote...

But the thing about the slaver has given me a revelation, I think I owe didymos an apology.
I was acting like D.Kain in that discussion in the way I was attacking the Rachni Queen for what the Rachni from the Rachni wars did, it's not completely the same but it sort of works out like this.

Rachni Queen = Slaver's children
Rachni from the Rachni wars = Slavers
Slaves killing the children = Me (before this revelation)

So I can thank D.Kain for one thing, at least he made me realise just how much of a giant douche I was.

Killing Rachni queen is like killing slavers children, thinking that they will grow up slavers. Biased thinking but reasonable.

[FoxHound109]

D.Kain wrote...

I think that Morinth is better than the other crew members simply because I can't see how I can ****** her off. She doesn't have any choice biases on missions, all she cares about is helping Shepard.
Here is an example: If I NEEDED to sacrifice the floutila for example, I can see Tali turning on me unless I have a very high Paragon/Renegade. I can't imagine a similar situation involving Morinth, without directly attacking her. 

Read my other post about melding too. I think even on this and last page.

Yes, but to be fair, that's because Morinth doesn't have anything she cares enough about to take a stance against you. Tali values the flotila because those are her people. In the case of Morinth, there isn't much there that she holds dear, except for her need to kill. I'm not appropriating a moral connotation to it here, mind you! I'm simply stating that she factually can't stop killing: it's part of her condition. I'm sure that if you stood firmly in the way of that she would eventually turn on you. 

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

She's an addict who has given no reason why she would stop.  She enjoys melding, it's addictive to her, she's been doing it for 400 years now.  Why would she stop?  Because she's safe?  That's operating on the flawed idea that she's only killing to increase her power so she's safe.  And in the situation that the galaxy knows about the AY and don't care, you've already made yourself a part of the problem by killing the solution; you're already involved once you kill Samara for Morinth. 

No, giving the AY a choice leaves a few cracks in the sink.  If Morinth was imprisoned immediately, everyone would be fine.  And Morinth can be blamed for her actions.  She made the choice to hunt, to kill & to enslave, Samara didn't make that choice for her.  And you can blame a person despite the fairness of a situation.  An impoverished person doesn't have the right to kill someone well off who has nothing to do with his station.  You can blame a fugitive for killing an innocent person in an attempt to get away from the law. 

Yes, fanfiction.  Regardless of whatever you make up for yourself, there was no evidence that Shepard would survive the melding and there's no reason for Morinth (known liar and manipulator) to think otherwise. 

D.Kain wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

He believes that if people don't agree with him, then Morinth should have free reign to feast as much as she wants. 

As
I said. Morinth is not my direct problem. But if I am to solve the
problem with her, I will solve it at the start, and if people don't want
me to do it, I just won't solve the problem. 

You're
part of the problem because you killed the solution to the problem.  If
a dam explodes, you have to deal with rebuilding the dam, and the area
that was flooded by the break.  You're just focused on the dam itself
and ignore everything else.

First I try to fix the problem as I see it, THEN I come to conclusions if it works or not. I am the one solving it, not anybody else. Again if it's not my direct problem, and nobody cares, I won't even bother.

I already shared my opinion on this. You disagree? Fine, you can make a different choice. I won't blame a fugitive if he was judged wrongly.

There was enough evidance for me. 

YOU are the one focused on the dam, thanks for the analogy, but it applies to you, not me. lol

[D.Kain]

Dunstan wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Dunstan wrote...

Then I'm sorry, but I find you disgusting and I no longer wish to speak to you.

Then you better consider letting your slave go. Because that kind of thinking only leads me to think that you do not want to cooperate and simply treat people fair, to avoid it all in the first place.

You really wish to continue even though we are so different, very well.
If it was up to me then there would never be any slaves to begin with, and I don't know what you are trying to say in the second part.

Well it is awesome then. So what is the problem of me dealing with those that slaves are ok? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The only minor differenct is that the dog can't control themselve completly and loose all logical though, and Mornith still has control of her actions but it a complete addict.
Other then that it the same case.

Morinth can control her actions, she seems like a stong person that just doesn't want to. And she also doesn't bite me so I myself don't have a problem with her.

If she can choose her actions, then all the responsibility for her actions lies with her. 

We are not machines, we are not just input - process - output systems.  No matter what is done to you, you have the choice in how you respond.  If someone wrongs you, and you have no other recourse, then you direct your response to the one(s) who wronged you.

Not innocent artist girls form a different species half a galaxy and several centuries away. 


Morinth and Morinth alone is responsible for what she has made of her situation. 

We are more machines than you now I see. All people are different because they went through a different life. All people like different music because they came in contact with different music, all people like specific gender qualities because that is how they have been tought. All cultures have different things they do, that other cultures can see as amoral. 

(Note:  "Immoral" and "amoral" do not mean the same thing.)

First, you're espousing pure-nature-over-nature, determinist behaviorism.  Unfortunately, such nonsense seems to be hanging on in certain strands of therapy, and in certain university psych departments, long after it has been thoroughly discredited and debunked. 

Second, spare us the moral relativism.  Some things are just wrong, no matter what some culture somewhere believes. 

[D.Kain]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Yes, but to be fair, that's because Morinth doesn't have anything she cares enough about to take a stance against you. Tali values the flotila because those are her people. In the case of Morinth, there isn't much there that she holds dear, except for her need to kill. I'm not appropriating a moral connotation to it here, mind you! I'm simply stating that she factually can't stop killing: it's part of her condition. I'm sure that if you stood firmly in the way of that she would eventually turn on you. 

You THINK that she can't stop killing, atleast understand that. It shows just how bad the asari treated her, because she doesn't care about anything. But then again friendship should come first ANYWAY, and that's why I would value Morinth more. I'm sure Morinth won't turn on me if I try to make things better.

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

(Note:  "Immoral" and "amoral" do not mean the same thing.)

First, you're espousing pure-nature-over-nature, determinist behaviorism.  Unfortunately, such nonsense seems to be hanging on in certain strands of therapy, and in certain university psych departments, long after it has been thoroughly discredited and debunked. 

Second, spare us the moral relativism.  Some things are just wrong, no matter what some culture somewhere believes. 

Noted.

It's not nonsense. It's how it works. As if a person can grow on his own.

I never said it was right, the ones to punish for it is not Morinth though.

[D.Kain]

Dunstan wrote...

The problem is, killing innocent children is wrong.

Well then don't make situations in which it can happen, and everything will be fine. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So just to be perfectly clear, you're saying that if someone is a enslaved, it's OK for them to murder their "master's" children?  

Bull$#!+.  Complete and total bull$#!+. 

So HOW do you manage to call an opinon bullsh*t? It is clear, that's what I think - slavery is bad. Slaves are free to murder if they are being abused, will teach other slavers a lesson.

Because it's bull$#!+.  Your "opinion" is that it's OK for a slave to kill the slaver's children. 

What on earth gives you the idea that there's any justice, fairness, or morality in children being killed for their parent's wrongdoing? 

If a slave wants to fight back, and he should, the moral act is to direct his actions against the slavers not innocent third parties. 

Your "morality" is the same "morality" that leads to suicide bombers blowing up busses and schools full of children because those children happen to share an ethnic identity with those the bomber feels wronged him.  It's repugnant and vile and wrong at the deepest level. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

(Note:  "Immoral" and "amoral" do not mean the same thing.)

First, you're espousing pure-nature-over-nature, determinist behaviorism.  Unfortunately, such nonsense seems to be hanging on in certain strands of therapy, and in certain university psych departments, long after it has been thoroughly discredited and debunked. 

Second, spare us the moral relativism.  Some things are just wrong, no matter what some culture somewhere believes. 

Noted.

It's not nonsense. It's how it works. As if a person can grow on his own.

I never said it was right, the ones to punish for it is not Morinth though.

A person's choices are still their own, simple as that. 

"I'm evil because mommy didn't hug me enough" is nothing but a pathetic excuse. 

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So just to be perfectly clear, you're saying that if someone is a enslaved, it's OK for them to murder their "master's" children?  

Bull$#!+.  Complete and total bull$#!+. 

So HOW do you manage to call an opinon bullsh*t? It is clear, that's what I think - slavery is bad. Slaves are free to murder if they are being abused, will teach other slavers a lesson.

Because it's bull$#!+.  Your "opinion" is that it's OK for a slave to kill the slaver's children. 

What on earth gives you the idea that there's any justice, fairness, or morality in children being killed for their parent's wrongdoing? 

If a slave wants to fight back, and he should, the moral act is to direct his actions against the slavers not innocent third parties. 

Your "morality" is the same "morality" that leads to suicide bombers blowing up busses and schools full of children because those children happen to share an ethnic identity with those the bomber feels wronged him.  It's repugnant and vile and wrong at the deepest level. 

OMG listen to what I say more carefully. It is not ok for slaves to kill slavers children, it is not fair, it is not just it is not moral, BUT slaves are not to blame! Blame the slavers! Killing the slaves that killed those children would be as unfair as them killing children. 

If you would treat people fair, there wouldn't be suicide bombers, you are right.!

Modifié par D.Kain, 04 octobre 2011 - 06:23 .

[Millgy]

I remember reading somewhere that Morinth only kills the willing.The people she melds with know they're going to die. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but does anybody think it would justify what she did if it was?

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
OMG listen to what I say more carefully. It is not ok for slaves to kill slavers children, it is not fair, it is not just it is not moral, BUT slaves are not to blame! Blame the slavers! Killing the slaves that killed those children would be as unfair as them killing children. 

If you would treat people fair, there wouldn't be suicide bombers, you are right.!

I believe he's heard exactly what you're saying. You say something then proceed to contradict yourself immediately.

How?

[FoxHound109]

D.Kain wrote...

You THINK that she can't stop killing, atleast understand that. It shows just how bad the asari treated her, because she doesn't care about anything. But then again friendship should come first ANYWAY, and that's why I would value Morinth more. I'm sure Morinth won't turn on me if I try to make things better.

Well she hasn't stopped killing in 400 years, so it's not so much an I "think" as it's an educated guess with some pretty decent support from the narrative and the character itself. But to play devil's advocate here: you THINK that friendship should come first for her, but there is no proof of this when it comes to Morinth, to be entirely honest with you here. Morinth not caring about anything to me is less of a point of loyalty toward Shepard and more of a point of convenience. She isn't loyal because she picks you above everything else, she's loyal because she doesn't yet have a reason not to be and, unlike your other crew members, has less in the world that would get under her skin. That's not exactly loyalty, IMO.

[D.Kain]

Dunstan wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Dunstan wrote...

The problem is, killing innocent children is wrong.

Well then don't make situations in which it can happen, and everything will be fine. 

So being a slave is in your mind a good reason to kill a child that's played no part in forcing you into slavery.

Yes.