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[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

He is not more important, and his cause is not more important, than the random people he hurts to "help his cause".  

And yes, they're random.  If they're not directly involved, if they're not in some waylinked to the wrongs being done, then they're random.  If they're related by "accident of birth", then they're still innocent, just not so random.

But don't you think that by dealing with a slaver he helps everybody in the future?

Well, random but not completely, say a person who wouldn't have a sword wouldn't be his target. But then again, WHO would actually help Morinth as you say give your sword?

(The sword example was yours.)

I wouldn't give Morinth a sword, she'd just use it to hurt random innocent people.  She's not interested in justice or retribution or fighting back -- she's just interested in her own pleasure, power, and survival. 

Dealing with the slaver helps everyone in the future. 

Killing his children, stealing from random uninvolved people, lashing out at the world, etc... none of those things help anyone at all. 

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

It changes nothing if this woman is in the same situation as Morinth. Because goverment doesn't want to reveal her existance to people for political reasons, nobody knows what she is. And goverment just want to terminate her, her fighting the goverment back involves getting power.

That's not really true. The government doesn't want to terminate her, it wants to contain the disease. You don't think that's entirely different? 

Well you know what Morinth thinks about her contaiment. The HIV anology? No I don't think it is entirely different.

So living is the same as dying? Good to know.

For Morinth living in contaiment is worse than dying.

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

(The sword example was yours.)

I wouldn't give Morinth a sword, she'd just use it to hurt random innocent people.  She's not interested in justice or retribution or fighting back -- she's just interested in her own pleasure, power, and survival. 

Dealing with the slaver helps everyone in the future. 

Killing his children, stealing from random uninvolved people, lashing out at the world, etc... none of those things help anyone at all. 

Ok but here is also a question for you. Don't you think that the whole asari society failed Morinth and that they are the slaver? 

[FoxHound109]

D.Kain wrote...

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

It changes nothing if this woman is in the same situation as Morinth. Because goverment doesn't want to reveal her existance to people for political reasons, nobody knows what she is. And goverment just want to terminate her, her fighting the goverment back involves getting power.

That's not really true. The government doesn't want to terminate her, it wants to contain the disease. You don't think that's entirely different? 

Well you know what Morinth thinks about her contaiment. The HIV anology? No I don't think it is entirely different.

So living is the same as dying? Good to know.

For Morinth living in contaiment is worse than dying.

Yes, but the game makes a point to let you know that this isn't because of her morality, it is because she can't help herself. It's akin to a drug addict wanting to die before quitting drug use. It's not exactly a point in her favor. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Your thinking leads to someone who was molested by a priest blowing up a cathedral packed for mass.  If the victim finds no other means of obtaining justice, then his retribution should be directed towards the priest, or those who directly enabled the priest, not a building full of random victims who had nothing to do with it.   All the latter does is spread the original victim's suffering to hundreds of other people who had nothing to do with it.

And if they follow your way of thinking, then the survivors and the relatives and friends of the victims now do what?  Shoot up a mall to kill the bomber's friends or siblings?  Spread the suffering even more? 

And so on?  When does the suffering and killing and pain and loss end, if everyone keeps lashing out against the world, against random strangers or people involved by accidents of circumstance, when they've been hurt by someone? 

 But what if the only chance to get at the priest is blowing up the whole cathedral at specific time, and there is just NO other way to have the priest be responsible? Everybody, should ask the question of what happened, and why it did. Always think before you act. The person himself should invastigate the priest and see if somebody helf a gun at priests head when he was doing what he did, and act only if it is the selfishness of the priest alone.

The priest is in fact responsible, no matter what.  Whether he is ever be held responsible is a different question.  It doesn't matter if there was somehow a "gun held to the priest's head", he still chose himself over his victims.  Not that I can see much of a situation in which a priest could be forced to sexually abuse children... 

If the only way to "get" the priest is to also inflict suffering on the innocent, then the cost of retribution is too high, and you don't do it.  There's usually another way, however.

[D.Kain]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Yes, but the game makes a point to let you know that this isn't because of her morality, it is because she can't help herself. It's akin to a drug addict wanting to die before quitting drug use. It's not exactly a point in her favor. 

Whoop. Here is the difference in our thinking. I think that Morinth's free life is more important for her not her melding life. VERY big difference here. The fact that Samara said that Morinth proved her addiction jsut by RUNNING away was what got me on her diffence.

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

Whoop. Here is the difference in our thinking. I think that Morinth's free life is more important for her not her melding life. VERY big difference here. The fact that Samara said that Morinth proved her addiction jsut by RUNNING away was what got me on her diffence.

What makes Morinth's life addiction so much more important than the lives of the hundreds that she has killed though?

Modifié par SandTrout, 04 octobre 2011 - 07:46 .

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The priest is in fact responsible, no matter what.  Whether he is ever be held responsible is a different question.  It doesn't matter if there was somehow a "gun held to the priest's head", he still chose himself over his victims.  Not that I can see much of a situation in which a priest could be forced to sexually abuse children... 

If the only way to "get" the priest is to also inflict suffering on the innocent, then the cost of retribution is too high, and you don't do it.  There's usually another way, however.

Ok, so Morinth is responsible, but shouldn't be held responsible? 

What is the other way for Morinth to live like all the other asari, doing all the same things, visiting all the same places out of seclusion and not killing people? 

[Radahldo]

I think its kind of offensive and a disservice to this debate to continue making all these analogies to hiv sufferers and drug addicts. The circumstances that would lead to drug addict are infinitely more complex than morinths presentation--or anything in me3-- by virtue of the addicts being real people.

But one thing i've thought of is what the monastery was like. Leper monastery? 19th century Asylum for epiletics? Her experiences within the monastery arent ever outlined and it could wildly differ depending on what analog the writers wish to use. I dont think it will ever come up in game but im curious to hear what some of you think

[D.Kain]

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Whoop. Here is the difference in our thinking. I think that Morinth's free life is more important for her not her melding life. VERY big difference here. The fact that Samara said that Morinth proved her addiction jsut by RUNNING away was what got me on her diffence.

What makes Morinth's life addiction so much more important than the lives of the hundreds that she has killed though?

That she wasn't given a choice to live her life without being able to not hurt others? 

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Whoop. Here is the difference in our thinking. I think that Morinth's free life is more important for her not her melding life. VERY big difference here. The fact that Samara said that Morinth proved her addiction jsut by RUNNING away was what got me on her diffence.

What makes Morinth's life addiction so much more important than the lives of the hundreds that she has killed though?

That she wasn't given a choice to live her life without being able to not hurt others? 

First off, that doesn't make her life more important than any of her victims. Secondly, Yes, she did have that choice, and rejected it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

(The sword example was yours.)

I wouldn't give Morinth a sword, she'd just use it to hurt random innocent people.  She's not interested in justice or retribution or fighting back -- she's just interested in her own pleasure, power, and survival. 

Dealing with the slaver helps everyone in the future. 

Killing his children, stealing from random uninvolved people, lashing out at the world, etc... none of those things help anyone at all. 

Ok but here is also a question for you. Don't you think that the whole asari society failed Morinth and that they are the slaver? 

No. 

Ardat Yakshi are not kept as slaves, they are not abused, they are not oppressed.  They're kept in controlled conditions because it's the least bad option available to the Asari. 

There's no evidence that Samara or anyone else abused or neglected or hurt Morinth, or that her life was anything but good until the day it was discovered that she had a incurable and highly dangerous condition. 

She was offered a chance at seclusion with all her needs met, with all the comfort that her people could give her. 

Morinth chose to run instead.  Even Samara understands with her choice, has sympathy for her choice. 

And if that's all she did, if she had just run, and the Asari were trying to kill her just for running, then you'd have something of a point about her being a victim.  But she didn't just run, she manipulated and raped and murdered her way across hundreds of years and thousands of light-years. 

[D.Kain]

SandTrout wrote...

First off, that doesn't make her life more important than any of her victims. Secondly, Yes, she did have that choice, and rejected it.

Asari made Morinth's life more important than the life of her victims by putting her in the situation they did. They are responsible, tell them that her life is not more important.

Let's blame any person about doing wrong things when they don't want to die.

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

No. 

Ardat Yakshi are not kept as slaves, they are not abused, they are not oppressed.  They're kept in controlled conditions because it's the least bad option available to the Asari. 

There's no evidence that Samara or anyone else abused or neglected or hurt Morinth, or that her life was anything but good until the day it was discovered that she had a incurable and highly dangerous condition. 

She was offered a chance at seclusion with all her needs met, with all the comfort that her people could give her. 

Morinth chose to run instead.  Even Samara understands with her choice, has sympathy for her choice. 

And if that's all she did, if she had just run, and the Asari were trying to kill her just for running, then you'd have something of a point about her being a victim.  But she didn't just run, she manipulated and raped and murdered her way across hundreds of years and thousands of light-years. 

The bold part. This is the problem. Needs were not met, and I'm not talking about the melding.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
Asari made Morinth's life more important than the life of her victims by putting her in the situation they did. They are responsible, tell them that her life is not more important.

Let's blame any person about doing wrong things when they don't want to die.

Utter stupidity in this post.

Why do you bother to reply then? 

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

And you continue to bold stuff and fail to understand the meaning. Needs is not the same as wants and desires.

So you think that people have the same need as animals? Eat-sleep?

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The priest is in fact responsible, no matter what.  Whether he is ever be held responsible is a different question.  It doesn't matter if there was somehow a "gun held to the priest's head", he still chose himself over his victims.  Not that I can see much of a situation in which a priest could be forced to sexually abuse children... 

If the only way to "get" the priest is to also inflict suffering on the innocent, then the cost of retribution is too high, and you don't do it.  There's usually another way, however.

Ok, so Morinth is responsible, but shouldn't be held responsible? 

No.  No. 

The point is that you're responsible for what you do, even if no one else ever knows about it.   The credit or blame are yours, even if it's entirely in secret.  If I use the little scanable cards at the store to donate to the local food pantry anonymously, I've still made that donation, even if I'm the only one who ever knows.  If someone steals or kills or rapes, they've still done it, they're still to blame, they're still responsible, even if no one else ever figures out who did it.  They still inflicted the suffering and loss on others. 

Even if you're never held to account for the wrong you've done, you're still responsible for it. You still did it, and you're still to blame. 

You seem to be viewing everything and everyone as strictly a social constructs, nonexistent and without meaning  in isolation, if no one else knows or if no one else is involved.   

D.Kain wrote...
What is the other way for Morinth to live like all the other asari, doing all the same things, visiting all the same places out of seclusion and not killing people? 

She could have disappeared into the vastness of the galaxy, hundreds of years and thousands of worlds and trillions of Asari, changed her face and her look and her name, and made herself into anyone she wanted.  All she had to do was not slaughter her way through that vastness... but she couldn't, or wouldn't. 

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

Asari made Morinth's life more important than the life of her victims by putting her in the situation they did. They are responsible, tell them that her life is not more important.

Let's blame any person about doing wrong things when they don't want to die.

Except that the asari weren't trying to kill her, they were trying to quarantine her for both her own and the public's protection. The value of her indulgence is not increased by an crappy condition.

Even if Morinth chose a life on the run over comfortable incarceration, she is still not justified in killing all those people along the way. She could be considered justified in killing anyone who came after her, but the vast majority of her victims do not fall into that category.

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

No. 

Ardat Yakshi are not kept as slaves, they are not abused, they are not oppressed.  They're kept in controlled conditions because it's the least bad option available to the Asari. 

There's no evidence that Samara or anyone else abused or neglected or hurt Morinth, or that her life was anything but good until the day it was discovered that she had a incurable and highly dangerous condition. 

She was offered a chance at seclusion with all her needs met, with all the comfort that her people could give her. 

Morinth chose to run instead.  Even Samara understands with her choice, has sympathy for her choice. 

And if that's all she did, if she had just run, and the Asari were trying to kill her just for running, then you'd have something of a point about her being a victim.  But she didn't just run, she manipulated and raped and murdered her way across hundreds of years and thousands of light-years. 

The bold part. This is the problem. Needs were not met, and I'm not talking about the melding.

OK, what "needs" were those?  

[BatmanPWNS]

D.Kain wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

First off, that doesn't make her life more important than any of her victims. Secondly, Yes, she did have that choice, and rejected it.

Asari made Morinth's life more important than the life of her victims by putting her in the situation they did. They are responsible, tell them that her life is not more important.

Let's blame any person about doing wrong things when they don't want to die.

(The Bold part) But the Asari's weren't going to kill her. They were just gonna contain her. Besides she ran off and murdered innocent people (Who ha people that loved them. I mean did you even see Nef's mother?). I love to see your reaction if it was one of the closest people of your life that was killed by Morinth. I am sure you would let her walk freely as if it was nothing.

[FoxHound109]

D.Kain wrote...

Whoop. Here is the difference in our thinking. I think that Morinth's free life is more important for her not her melding life. VERY big difference here. The fact that Samara said that Morinth proved her addiction jsut by RUNNING away was what got me on her diffence.

No offense inteded by this, but if that is honestly how you feel then I don't think I can keep going in this debate. Fundamental differences and all that.