3434 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Kain]

KBomb wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok I just got from my anthropology class. Even my professor thinks that you don't lock people up before they have done something bad. My professor is a wise elderly man. I told him that these people have the genetic desiese and that they want to mate. He said that he would surely lock them up if they can't hold themselves together. I asked how would he know, he said if they kill someone. He said that Morinth just has the gun with her all the time, and that she should be punished only when she uses it. Morinth was punished before using the gun, I help Morinth, everything is fair.

I really told him everything he needs to know without biases.

Interesting view from an Anthropology professor. Most anthropologists are quite open to any faucets of society and the inner workings. Since their profession is to not judge, but understand the politics, social sciences, infrastructural workings and etc. I find it odd that he judged it so quickly without hearing the entire history of the Asari and AY. And I would think he would find it quite normal, since seclusion has been used throughout history without violence erupting from the effects. This wouldn’t be the same institution where you learn psychology from, would it?

I didn't have the time to explain the whole ME history to him. He told me what HE would have done if HE was in charge. He didn't judje, he wasn't even emotional, just calmly said his opinion.
Bold part, HOW DO YOU KNOW???
I learn at one college not multiple.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok I just got from my anthropology class. Even my professor thinks that you don't lock people up before they have done something bad. My professor is a wise elderly man. I told him that these people have the genetic desiese and that they want to mate. He said that he would surely lock them up if they can't hold themselves together. I asked how would he know, he said if they kill someone. He said that Morinth just has the gun with her all the time, and that she should be punished only when she uses it. Morinth was punished before using the gun, I help Morinth, everything is fair.

I really told him everything he needs to know without biases.

No she wasn't. It's irrelevant though. She proved the Asari right about the dangers of having Ardat-Yakshi loose in the galaxy in the end.

I bet it would be easier to catch her if she wasn't chased undercover to hide little political secrets. She would be caught right of the bat if everybody knew she was AY and if police worked on it and not a lonely justicar.


Seclusion = punishment.

Danger does not justify seclusion.

Only when someone is selfish enough to place their own wants and desires above the majority's rights to safety.

Being in majority doesn't justify treating other people bad.

[KBomb]

D.Kain wrote...

I didn't have the time to explain the whole ME history to him. He told me what HE would have done if HE was in charge. He didn't judje, he wasn't even emotional, just calmly said his opinion.
Bold part, HOW DO YOU KNOW???
I learn at one college not multiple.

Then he couldn’t have made an informed opinion if he doesn’t know the whole story. It sounds like you only told him some of the history of it, so you told him what you were partial to. If he didn’t make a professional opinion, just his opinion, then why tell us at all? I could go right now and ask my neighbor or the lady that runs the bakery down the street. I am sure their opinions would mean squat to anyone here. It’s ridiculous that you use that to validate your point.

And about seclusion being used throughout history with no violent repercussions? How do I know, you ask? Umm, it’s called “books”. You read them.

[D.Kain]

KBomb wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I didn't have the time to explain the whole ME history to him. He told me what HE would have done if HE was in charge. He didn't judje, he wasn't even emotional, just calmly said his opinion.
Bold part, HOW DO YOU KNOW???
I learn at one college not multiple.

Then he couldn’t have made an informed opinion if he doesn’t know the whole story. It sounds like you only told him some of the history of it, so you told him what you were partial to. If he didn’t make a professional opinion, just his opinion, then why tell us at all? I could go right now and ask my neighbor or the lady that runs the bakery down the street. I am sure their opinions would mean squat to anyone here. It’s ridiculous that you use that to validate your point.

And about seclusion being used throughout history with no violent repercussions? How do I know, you ask? Umm, it’s called “books”. You read them.

I believe that his opinion comes from knowing how things work in the world and what is the best solution.

So what is the name of the book? 

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

Yeah I admit that my choice of words was poor. I didn't really want to use argumentum ad populum to try and prove a point. I've said it before though, there was nothing bad about the way Morinth was treated. Whether she agrees with it or not it was fair. 

Ok, once again we come to the conclusion of having different views. 

I don't think it was fair at all. ( Regardless of even of what Morinth thinks, I still think that AY in general are not treated fair. )

Morinth was treated horrible.

Modifié par D.Kain, 04 octobre 2011 - 11:59 .

[KBomb]

D.Kain wrote...


I believe that his opinion comes from knowing how things work in the world and what is the best solution.

So what is the name of the book? 

He doesn’t know how things work in ME. You said you yourself. You can’t ask him what he thinks about it and want his professional opinion when he hasn’t all the facts, or when there aren’t any AY in the universe in which he studies. His opinion would mean very little to me. It would mean about as much as anyone’s opinion that I consider “wise”. As for the forum, I don’t think his opinion holds any weight.


And what is the name of the book? Are you…serious? What else kind of books do you learn about history? History books. Women were routinely secluded in medieval times. It wasn’t unheard of for a “scandalous” daughter or wife to be swept away to a nunnery where she would live out her remaining days in seclusion. Often times young girls were secluded away from the public until they were to be married, only having the company of their nanny or tutors until they were old enough to marry. And children who had birth defects were kept away from society. There are tons of examples and while these may have been unfair, they did not result in hedonist killing and mindless slaughter.

Modifié par KBomb, 05 octobre 2011 - 12:03 .

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

...You're advocating allowing a predator loose on the galaxy just because someone doesn't agree with you.

You don't seem to grap the idea that a person is to blame for their actions.

...There's more evidence that the Dragon Age verse and Mass Effect verse are connected then there is that Shepard would survive Morinth.

No, you're focused on the dam, I'm focused on the water that's ruining everyone's day.

Sure I do, because it's not my problem.
P: Help! 
Me: Sure, you have to patch this right here.
P: I don't care. 
Me: Your problem. 

Do you BLAME somebody for the right choice? Morinth did a right choice.

Drop that already, this one we don't agree.

You know if you fix the damn watter flow, it will dry eventually.

Actually it's more like:
P: Help!
S: Do not fear, I am here to-
You: *blam!*
S: X_X
P: Why did you do that?
You: Because she deserved it.
P: Will you help me?
You:  You have to do what I say first.
P: That's unreasonable.
You: Your problem.

Morinth's choice of fleeing was a sympathetic choice.  However, her choice to kill others, manipulate them, hypnotise them and preying on them, those were all wrong choices.  And they sit on HER shoulders.  If making the choice to flee was her choice, everything after that was her choice as well.   So yes, I do blame her for what she's done; everything she's done, and not shifting the blame onto someone else.  

Do you admit that she still wants to meld even after Samara is dead?

But you're just ignoring everyone injured by the break in the dam; you can't do that.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

With what the Asari know about Ardat-Yakshi seclusion is the best solution at least. This is where sound decision making comes into the process. Is it better to sacrifice the happiness of the many to accomodate the happiness of the few or vice versa? You have to figure out, regardless of personal feelings, what the best decision is. 

You can't make somebody happy if it is built on somebodies unhappiness, and this is a good example. Asari wanted to be happy by sacrificing Morinth's happiness, and it didn't work out. 

Again, my decision here is simple. Since I have to decide I decide what I think is best for everyone. If people don't agree with me, I can't decide for others, because they don't agree. So then I have to decide what is best for me, since what is best for everybody is out of the question. For me it is best that Morinth be alive.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually it's more like:
P: Help!
S: Do not fear, I am here to-
You: *blam!*
S: X_X
P: Why did you do that?
You: Because she deserved it.
P: Will you help me?
You:  You have to do what I say first.
P: That's unreasonable.
You: Your problem.

Morinth's choice of fleeing was a sympathetic choice.  However, her choice to kill others, manipulate them, hypnotise them and preying on them, those were all wrong choices.  And they sit on HER shoulders.  If making the choice to flee was her choice, everything after that was her choice as well.   So yes, I do blame her for what she's done; everything she's done, and not shifting the blame onto someone else.  

Do you admit that she still wants to meld even after Samara is dead?

But you're just ignoring everyone injured by the break in the dam; you can't do that.

Well yes. Actually killing Samara which ''claims'' to want to help, is actually the first step on helping. I can't do the second step alone. I even got Morinth on my crew, which stops her from killing for now, which is basically like killing her, since she doesn't kill. And it's even better because she helps to fight the reappers. I think she can stop, but again a lot of it depends on wether people would want to stop treating AY like they do, and getting AY into the open is a must.

I actually don't know yet, if Morinth made the wrong choice. I still don't know what she wanted to acoplish in the end. If she for example wanted to gather enough power to get her sisters out of seclusion, then she made a right choice.

I don't know what she wants right now, other than to meld with Shepard, which she believes he can survive. ( and don't start on that part again. )

Who is getting injured right now? Morinth is on my crew, not in the bar killing someone.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

You can't make somebody happy if it is built on somebodies unhappiness, and this is a good example.

Yes you can, it's easily accomplished.

Again, my decision here is simple. Since I have to decide I decide what I think is best for everyone. If people don't agree with me, I can't decide for others, because they don't agree. So then I have to decide what is best for me, since what is best for everybody is out of the question. For me it is best that Morinth be alive.

Wanting to do what's best for everyone is flawed decision making, that's impossible in almost any situation. That's why you have to decide, are Morinth's wants more important than the general public's safety?

Ok, let's put it this way - making happiness on others unhappiness should be punished.

If the general public is not concerned with Morinth and think they are more important ( and they screwed her FIRST, mind you ) then Morinth is more important to me.

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually it's more like:
P: Help!
S: Do not fear, I am here to-
You: *blam!*
S: X_X
P: Why did you do that?
You: Because she deserved it.
P: Will you help me?
You:  You have to do what I say first.
P: That's unreasonable.
You: Your problem.

Morinth's choice of fleeing was a sympathetic choice.  However, her choice to kill others, manipulate them, hypnotise them and preying on them, those were all wrong choices.  And they sit on HER shoulders.  If making the choice to flee was her choice, everything after that was her choice as well.   So yes, I do blame her for what she's done; everything she's done, and not shifting the blame onto someone else.  

Do you admit that she still wants to meld even after Samara is dead?

But you're just ignoring everyone injured by the break in the dam; you can't do that.

Well yes. Actually killing Samara which ''claims'' to want to help, is actually the first step on helping. I can't do the second step alone. I even got Morinth on my crew, which stops her from killing for now, which is basically like killing her, since she doesn't kill. And it's even better because she helps to fight the reappers. I think she can stop, but again a lot of it depends on wether people would want to stop treating AY like they do, and getting AY into the open is a must.

I actually don't know yet, if Morinth made the wrong choice. I still don't know what she wanted to acoplish in the end. If she for example wanted to gather enough power to get her sisters out of seclusion, then she made a right choice.

I don't know what she wants right now, other than to meld with Shepard, which she believes he can survive. ( and don't start on that part again. )

Who is getting injured right now? Morinth is on my crew, not in the bar killing someone.

No, killing Samara only helps Morinth, it does nothing but harm for everyone else.  So keeping Morinth secluded on your ship = okay, but keeping Morinth secluded in a monastary = bad?  That doesn't make sense.  And what if she doesn't want to help fight the Reapers?  What if she just left?  Okay, no.  She can stop if she is forced to stop, not if she feels like it.  She'll have an addiction, a dying need to meld.  It doesn't matter if people know about it; hell, most non-Asari have no idea what an AY is outside of mythological examples and treat them no differently than they do normal Asari.  Bringing AY into open mind would only make people more distrustful of the Asari in general, including AY.  

Wait, so Morinth gets to operate on "the end justifies the means" while the Asari don't?  Is keeping people safe from a predator a bad decision now?  No.  Morinth's choice to run was sympathetic.  Her choice to kill other people who had nothing to do with her was wrong; she's ruining the lives of other people.

But she still wants to meld, even though Samara is dead.  Yes or no?

...and the hundreds if not thousands she's killed before just don't count?

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

No, killing Samara only helps Morinth, it does nothing but harm for everyone else.  So keeping Morinth secluded on your ship = okay, but keeping Morinth secluded in a monastary = bad?  That doesn't make sense.  And what if she doesn't want to help fight the Reapers?  What if she just left?  Okay, no.  She can stop if she is forced to stop, not if she feels like it.  She'll have an addiction, a dying need to meld.  It doesn't matter if people know about it; hell, most non-Asari have no idea what an AY is outside of mythological examples and treat them no differently than they do normal Asari.  Bringing AY into open mind would only make people more distrustful of the Asari in general, including AY.  

Wait, so Morinth gets to operate on "the end justifies the means" while the Asari don't?  Is keeping people safe from a predator a bad decision now?  No.  Morinth's choice to run was sympathetic.  Her choice to kill other people who had nothing to do with her was wrong; she's ruining the lives of other people.

But she still wants to meld, even though Samara is dead.  Yes or no?

...and the hundreds if not thousands she's killed before just don't count?

Morinth is on my ship because she wants to be, not because I hold her. I am not going to do anything to harm her, until asari reveal AY, no matter how bad at first, and until they release AY. Then I will have an exuse to harm Morinth with her current life.

Morinth is my squadmate, she doesn't opperate on "the end justifies the means". I personally don't have problems with her, other people do. Keeping people safe from a predator that doesn't kill is a bad decision. 

I don't know if Morinth wants to meld, I really don't. And right now it doesn't matter.

All she has killed are the result of asari regulations.

Modifié par D.Kain, 05 octobre 2011 - 12:38 .

[KBomb]

And any point D.Kain is trying to make about how horrible seclusion is becomes a moot point. Morinth could have fled and not killed anyone. She could have had her freedom and not become a serial killer.

[D.Kain]

KBomb wrote...

And any point D.Kain is trying to make about how horrible seclusion is becomes a moot point. Morinth could have fled and not killed anyone. She could have had her freedom and not become a serial killer.

We don't know her motives for freedom. We don't know what she was trying to accomplish. It seems like she was just having fun melding, but that is still unclear, since she gathered power that way, what she would do with the power remains a question.

[KBomb]

D.Kain wrote...


We don't know her motives for freedom. We don't know what she was trying to accomplish. It seems like she was just having fun melding, but that is still unclear, since she gathered power that way, what she would do with the power remains a question.

She knew what being a Ay meant, come on. She knew that when she melded, it would kill. Two things: Either she melded and killed and that’s when it was discovered she was an AY, or she was found to be an Ay through other means and melded anyway, killing someone. Either way, she chose to keep killing in cold blood. Either way, she became a serial killer. At this point, whatever her motives are doesn’t matter. She is a monster--she has just defeated any purpose of redeeming AY.
 
As I said earlier, and gave examples to--which you chose to ignore-- seclusion has always happened without disastrous results.

[D.Kain]

KBomb wrote...

She knew what being a Ay meant, come on. She knew that when she melded, it would kill. Two things: Either she melded and killed and that’s when it was discovered she was an AY, or she was found to be an Ay through other means and melded anyway, killing someone. Either way, she chose to keep killing in cold blood. Either way, she became a serial killer. At this point, whatever her motives are doesn’t matter. She is a monster--she has just defeated any purpose of redeeming AY.
 
As I said earlier, and gave examples to--which you chose to ignore-- seclusion has always happened without disastrous results.

The fact that she kiiled IS why AY need to be free. What is that book that you read about seclusion?

[KBomb]

D.Kain wrote...

The fact that she kiiled IS why AY need to be free. What is that book that you read about seclusion?

She killed for power. She hunted, stalked and murdered innocent people. And….
 

And what is the name of the book? Are you…serious? What else kind of books do you learn about history? History books. Women were routinely secluded in medieval times. It wasn’t unheard of for a “scandalous” daughter or wife to be swept away to a nunnery where she would live out her remaining days in seclusion. Often times young girls were secluded away from the public until they were to be married, only having the company of their nanny or tutors until they were old enough to marry. And children who had birth defects were kept away from society. There are tons of examples and while these may have been unfair, they did not result in hedonist killing and mindless slaughter.

[D.Kain]

KBomb wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

The fact that she kiiled IS why AY need to be free. What is that book that you read about seclusion?

She killed for power. She hunted, stalked and murdered innocent people. And….
 

And what is the name of the book? Are you…serious? What else kind of books do you learn about history? History books. Women were routinely secluded in medieval times. It wasn’t unheard of for a “scandalous” daughter or wife to be swept away to a nunnery where she would live out her remaining days in seclusion. Often times young girls were secluded away from the public until they were to be married, only having the company of their nanny or tutors until they were old enough to marry. And children who had birth defects were kept away from society. There are tons of examples and while these may have been unfair, they did not result in hedonist killing and mindless slaughter.

Yes for power. Why did she need that power? We don't know yet. 

Secluding is BAD, that's why we had all the fightning for female rights. Ofcourse a medievel woman that didn't even know how to hold a sword can't do as much as Morinth that can toss around people with her biotics and can hipnotize.

[KBomb]

D.Kain wrote...

Yes for power. Why did she need that power? We don't know yet. 

Secluding is BAD, that's why we had all the fightning for female rights. Ofcourse a medievel woman that didn't even know how to hold a sword can't do as much as Morinth that can toss around people with her biotics and can hipnotize.

You think they fought for women’s rights because they were being secluded? Are you serious? You missed my point completely and I don’t know if you do it because you can’t come up with a rebuttal or if you’re just really that ..clueless. The point was not that women--or even the children who were secluded---could have fought for their freedom. The point was: it didn’t result in them killing hundreds of innocent people. If Morinth killed her would-be captors, you may have a leg to stand on with your arguments. She didn’t. She killed anyone she could gain power from. AY become addicted to melding and the power that comes from it. She killed, not for freedom, but for self serving purposes. No matter what her motives presently or in the future would be.


And in case you didn’t know: Seclusion isn’t imprisonment. Maybe you should learn that.

[D.Kain]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok I just got from my anthropology class. Even my professor thinks that you don't lock people up before they have done something bad. My professor is a wise elderly man. I told him that these people have the genetic desiese and that they want to mate. He said that he would surely lock them up if they can't hold themselves together. I asked how would he know, he said if they kill someone. He said that Morinth just has the gun with her all the time, and that she should be punished only when she uses it. Morinth was punished before using the gun, I help Morinth, everything is fair.

I really told him everything he needs to know without biases.

So, since Morinth used the gun when she killed the innocent person (Nef), I assume we're locking her up.

And you would be right if you didn't lock her up before she did it.