3434 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ravensword wrote...

Not only that, but betraying Samara after she swore an a sacred oath to serve you is really msessed up.

Yeah it is.

[Ravensword]

I could see how that would work out for a purely Renegade Shepard who wants to get rid of Samara so that when she is released from her oath she won't kill him.

[SandTrout]

Ravensword wrote...

I could see how that would work out for a purely Renegade Shepard who wants to get rid of Samara so that when she is released from her oath she won't kill him.

Yep, that is the only valid reason that has been presented for choosing the monster.

A smart renegade shep would probably still probably put down the mad dog after the suicide mission, IMO. Not good for anyone to have a serial killer running loose.

[Ravensword]

SandTrout wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I could see how that would work out for a purely Renegade Shepard who wants to get rid of Samara so that when she is released from her oath she won't kill him.

Yep, that is the only valid reason that has been presented for choosing the monster.

A smart renegade shep would probably still probably put down the mad dog after the suicide mission, IMO. Not good for anyone to have a serial killer running loose.

It's still messed up since Shep would've been murdering Samara and allowing Morinth to take her place. Shep deserves to have his brain fried after chosing her. Being inside Morinth's apartment should've been the final nail in the coffin as she was at her creepiest then.

[TheDarkBrotherhood]

Dunstan wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Dunstan wrote...

So, how's it going?

D.Kain...That is all.

I can barely believe, that I believe, that he isn't a masterful troll.

Maybe because he isn't? Having a different opinion =/= being a troll.

[TheDarkBrotherhood]

Dunstan wrote...

TheDarkBrotherhood wrote...

Dunstan wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Dunstan wrote...

So, how's it going?

D.Kain...That is all.

I can barely believe, that I believe, that he isn't a masterful troll.

Maybe because he isn't? Having a different opinion =/= being a troll.

Read what I said again, carefully.

It seems to me like you're saying that you don't believe it, but you should. Which is why you barely believe that you believe that he isn't a troll, eh?

[Asenza]

SandTrout wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I could see how that would work out for a purely Renegade Shepard who wants to get rid of Samara so that when she is released from her oath she won't kill him.

Yep, that is the only valid reason that has been presented for choosing the monster.

A smart renegade shep would probably still probably put down the mad dog after the suicide mission, IMO. Not good for anyone to have a serial killer running loose.

Well, it is kind of an argument after the fact, but if you're Renegade, Samara will say that once the SM  is over she will do all she can to never run into Shepard again, so that she won't have to do what the code dictates.

But not so after the fact, she tells Shepard straight off that the recruitment mission that she would have to kill him/her if (and only if) he/she makes her do something extremely dishonorable. So uhh, there's fair warning...

The other thing, is that it doesn't make much sense for Shepard to take against Samara for maybe possibly going to kill them in the future, when Morinth was actively trying to kill Shepard. 

@ D.Kain,

It is justified to lock up someone pre-emptively... when they have a genetic disorder that makes them addicted to killing. Why should even one life be sacrificed before action is taken, when previous evidence strongly suggests the outcome? The A-Y disorder isn't something new, the Asari have known about it for centuries.

So when Morinth and her sisters came along, containment was the only option. You do know, that the Asari society which you blame so much, could have just preemptively killed the Ardat-Yakshi, as oppsed to a life of seclusion and comfort, probably at the public's expense, with eternal risk of an outbreak. Containment, in a situation with no real winners, is the best option there is.

Modifié par Asenza, 05 octobre 2011 - 01:18 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

This is the part that can have more weight than anything else that was said to me in this thread. Truth is we don't know if she really could.

She did, and we only found her because she killed again.

And again, we don't know who she melds, how and why. 

Maybe you don't know.  The rest of us do, since we actually payed attention during the game. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Ok I just got from my anthropology class. Even my professor thinks that you don't lock people up before they have done something bad. My professor is a wise elderly man. I told him that these people have the genetic desiese and that they want to mate. He said that he would surely lock them up if they can't hold themselves together. I asked how would he know, he said if they kill someone. He said that Morinth just has the gun with her all the time, and that she should be punished only when she uses it. Morinth was punished before using the gun, I help Morinth, everything is fair.

I really told him everything he needs to know without biases.

Oddly enough, the discussion with Samara makes it sound like Morinth was already addicted before she chose to run instead of go into seclusion.  Something about running being proof that she was addicted. 

How did she become addicted if she hadn't already killed? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Morinth's choice of fleeing was a sympathetic choice.  However, her choice to kill others, manipulate them, hypnotise them and preying on them, those were all wrong choices.  And they sit on HER shoulders.  If making the choice to flee was her choice, everything after that was her choice as well.   So yes, I do blame her for what she's done; everything she's done, and not shifting the blame onto someone else.  

Bingo. 

It's not the running that makes Morinth a monster, it's the trail of rapemurders she leaves in her wake. 

If Morinth had just run away, and lived a quiet peaceful life, and Samara had still torn her way across the galaxy to execute her, then Samara would be the monster.   But that's not what happened. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

KBomb wrote...

That is skewed logic. So, a man grows up being abused. Terribly so. He goes to see a therapist who says, “This man is deeply disturbed. We need to put him into a hospital because he has the stepping stones of a madman.” He actually hasn’t committed any crime, so they do nothing. He then goes out and molests dozens of children. He shouldn’t be punished because they were going to seclude him before he committed the crime? Because he was treated badly and threatened with seclusion, he shouldn’t be accountable for his atrocities?

That is not what happened in Morinth's case. What does it have to do with her?

Actually, you're right, it's not exactly what happened with Morinth, because we have NO EVIDENCE that Morinth was ever abused by Samara or anyone else. 

However, it is a somewhat serviceable analogy in that Morinth had a dangerous condition that made her very likely to cause harm and suffering to those around her. 

[Asenza]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

KBomb wrote...

That is skewed logic. So, a man grows up being abused. Terribly so. He goes to see a therapist who says, “This man is deeply disturbed. We need to put him into a hospital because he has the stepping stones of a madman.” He actually hasn’t committed any crime, so they do nothing. He then goes out and molests dozens of children. He shouldn’t be punished because they were going to seclude him before he committed the crime? Because he was treated badly and threatened with seclusion, he shouldn’t be accountable for his atrocities?

That is not what happened in Morinth's case. What does it have to do with her?

Actually, you're right, it's not exactly what happened with Morinth, because we have NO EVIDENCE that Morinth was ever abused by Samara or anyone else. 

However, it is a somewhat serviceable analogy in that Morinth had a dangerous condition that made her very likely to cause harm and suffering to those around her. 

And that's why they tried to stop her before she went on a four hundred year murdering spree. But D.Kain and others are determined to romanticize Morinth, make her a victim to excuse her actions when there is direct, in-game information to the contrary. You guys should really write fanfiction. But you can't use what you've dreamed up to support in game facts.

Revenge of the Romanticism...

[Xilizhra]

Well, we do know that Morinth is convinced Samara never loved her.

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we do know that Morinth is convinced Samara never loved her.

She's also convinced that, despite being sterile, she's the genetic destiny of the Asari. She's also convinced that killing people is ok because they're trading their lives for mind-blowing ecstasy.

[Xilizhra]

Dunstan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we do know that Morinth is convinced Samara never loved her.

My Mother has never told me she loves me either (Father walked out the door when I was 10 years old), it doesn't mean that I'm going to go on a killing spree. And it doesn't justify me to do so, try again.

I wasn't justifying anything, simply making an observation.

She's also convinced that, despite being sterile, she's the genetic destiny of the Asari. She's also convinced that killing people is ok because they're trading their lives for mind-blowing ecstasy.

I didn't say she was right.
I think she's very confused, and self-deluded, and addicted.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dunstan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we do know that Morinth is convinced Samara never loved her.

My Mother has never told me she loves me either (Father walked out the door when I was 10 years old), it doesn't mean that I'm going to go on a killing spree. And it doesn't justify me to do so, try again.

I wasn't justifying anything, simply making an observation.

She's also convinced that, despite being sterile, she's the genetic destiny of the Asari. She's also convinced that killing people is ok because they're trading their lives for mind-blowing ecstasy.

I didn't say she was right.
I think she's very confused, and self-deluded, and addicted.

Then what point were you trying to make with your observation? So what if Morinth thinks Samara doesn't love her? We already know Morinth is an addict, a murderer, a selfish, sadistic, remorseless monster. Samara is well within her rights not to love her after all that.


You throwing in, "Oh, she thinks her mummy never loved her," is like a desperate defense attorney claiming that his serial-killer client's father never gave him a hug, and that is why he can't be held accountable for his actions.

The only thing I can take from that, is that you're trying to inject sympathy.

Modifié par Asenza, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Then what point were you trying to make with your observation? So what if Morinth thinks Samara doesn't love her? We already know Morinth is an addict, a murderer, a selfish, sadistic, remorseless monster. Samara is well within her rights not to love her after all that.

It was in response to the line about Morinth never being abused. I was saying, somewhat obliquely, that Morinth may have thought she was.

And you can stop being paranoid as well, trust me. I already decided to choose Samara in my main playthrough. I simply mourn Morinth's lost potential.

[Asenza]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then what point were you trying to make with your observation? So what if Morinth thinks Samara doesn't love her? We already know Morinth is an addict, a murderer, a selfish, sadistic, remorseless monster. Samara is well within her rights not to love her after all that.

It was in response to the line about Morinth never being abused. I was saying, somewhat obliquely, that Morinth may have thought she was.

And you can stop being paranoid as well, trust me. I already decided to choose Samara in my main playthrough. I simply mourn Morinth's lost potential.

Oh teh noes. You were so fun debate with. D.Kain's no fun at all. What helped you make your decision?

Modifié par Asenza, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:14 .

[tonnactus]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...


[/quote]Wow...it like you know Nef in detail..... Could it be that Nef and Shepard are two different people and Mornith was attracted to different things with Shepard and Nef. With Nef she liked the passionate artist, and she Shepard she loved the strong soldier.
[/quote]

No,thats wrong.The dialogue test with shepardt involved art too.Not only the "strong soldier". Nef didnt fit.
But people like Donovan Hock...

[Xilizhra]

Asenza wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then what point were you trying to make with your observation? So what if Morinth thinks Samara doesn't love her? We already know Morinth is an addict, a murderer, a selfish, sadistic, remorseless monster. Samara is well within her rights not to love her after all that.

It was in response to the line about Morinth never being abused. I was saying, somewhat obliquely, that Morinth may have thought she was.

And you can stop being paranoid as well, trust me. I already decided to choose Samara in my main playthrough. I simply mourn Morinth's lost potential.

Oh teh noes. You were so fun debate with. D.Kain's no fun at all. What helped you made your decision?

It was out of character for Diana Shepard to kill a squadmate. That was what sealed it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Why should the asari get away with needlessly putting people into crappy situations and having it fixed for them?

The fact that Morinth used her freedom to serially murder people demonstrably proves that the Asari plan was not needless.

No it proves the completely opposite. She didn't have her freedom without being treated like a murderer, she had nothing to loose, and everything to gain by murder. 

You do the right thing because it's the right thing.  Not because of what other people will think, not because the law might say you have to, not because an angry old man in the sky is watching you twice and making a list, not because of anything outside yourself.   You do the right thing because it's the right thing. 

"Nothing to lose" and "everything to gain" are meaningless. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:23 .