3434 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Well if you're renegade you should probably kill both. Because Samara killing Shep before he can save the world is just as bad as Morinth doing it.

[1136342t54_]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Never spare Morinth, though. I'd rather fight the person who's trying to kill me in the open than the one who's trying to manipulate me with mind control or can manipulate my crew and friends.

This. I can accept that someone not like Samara since that is completely understandable but I would never spare Morinth. She is more dangerous than Samara for the simple fact that she can control others of your crew and use them against you. Plus I wouldn't trust her at all after the Sucide Mission. Even Samara won't actually go after me she is willing to leave Shepard a lone until they meet again sometime in the future which is unlikely since it is a big galaxy.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
All the hints we have are that Samara is more powerful than Morinth,

You mean, like when Samara says that Morinth is able to grow more powerful over time, while Samara herself is unable to overpower Morinth when they do have their confrontation?

Maybe it's opposite day where you are.

and more trustworthy, since she is a Justicar and not a massmurderer ...

How in the world are these two mutually exclusive? Besides the innacuracy in attribution, mind you.

Morinth is a serial killer, not a mass murderer: she kills individuals at a time. It's Samara the Justicar we meet after she just wiped out a criminal group and before a looming police station massacre.

Same reason why soldiers are no murderers. It's not the same thing with justification. You can have good reasons to kill someone, believe it or not. I mean take for example self defense. What the police or soldiers do is just an extension of self defense. To prevent bad people from going on a killing spree. I posted before in this thread why Samara is more powerful. Read it up or leave it, I don't care. That Morinth may become more powerful one day doesn't help Shep on the Collector Base and considering her being a ... serial killer ... it is probably best kill her before she becomes more powerful? Logic is hard work, I know.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I never spare her either on the grounds she a serial killer sure Samara is questionable in her idea of fallowing her code when she says she killed an entire village that Mornith threw against her but Mornith is still more evil then Samara could be she actively seduces with the full intent of killing them. If she was to be scored on the table of killers she'd be a 22.

[jbblue05]

Dave of Canada wrote...


Never spare Morinth, though. I'd rather fight the person who's trying to kill me in the open than the one who's trying to manipulate me with mind control or can manipulate my crew and friends.

Shepard could at least warn the crew it seems very irresponsible of Shepard

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Samara threatens to kill me out in the open.
Morinth tries to kill me with seduction.

They're both different. Morinth enjoys killing while Samara kills for her code, I don't like either of them but it isn't surprising to see Morinth doesn't deviate from her usual path if she's still alive.

Never spare Morinth, though. I'd rather fight the person who's trying to kill me in the open than the one who's trying to manipulate me with mind control or can manipulate my crew and friends.

Ah that's my renegade justification too. 

I just kill Samara on the SM (headcanon it that he bumps her towards the Seeker swarms when Miranda collaspes. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

jbblue05 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...


Never spare Morinth, though. I'd rather fight the person who's trying to kill me in the open than the one who's trying to manipulate me with mind control or can manipulate my crew and friends.

Shepard could at least warn the crew it seems very irresponsible of Shepard

I'm sure Kasumi already did since she's the only one who says anything about Morinth being on board.

Other than that, I'm curious about one thing. If you, say choose Morinth for the metagaming purpose of unlocking "Domination", and you reload the save game immediately before that, does the skill stay unlocked? Didn't try it.

Because that's the only reason to choose her. She should die every time. Even a renegade Shepard wouldn't be so stupid as to pick her. Morinth has no redeeming qualities.

[didymos1120]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I'm sure Kasumi already did since she's the only one who says anything about Morinth being on board.

Or that's dialogue left in by mistake, like Morinth speaking in her own voice on Tuchanka and having Grunt and Mordin respond like nothing's out of the ordinary.  Why do I say this?  Because there's some other cut dialogue that makes it clear they were at least toying with the idea of having Morinth be on the crew openly.  It makes no sense to cut some and not the rest, especially when as it stands, Morinth makes a big deal out of the fact that no one will know.

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 septembre 2011 - 07:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: Shepard wipes out plenty of criminal groups... for nothing more than the loyalty of his friends.

So - do you accept that Shepard is also a mass murderer?

Is this a trick question? Or are we ignorring Arrival?

Shepard was a war criminal (or, alternatively, a rogue cop) well before the destruction of the Alpha Relay.

But - surely your own view of ethics doesn't force you to side with Morinth just because you view strict moral codes as dangerous and outdated?

Or do you truly believe siding with a sexual predator - serial killer is the lesser of two evils?

If the galaxy weren't riding on Shepard? No. Since it is? The sexual predator who doesn't murder people who say 'no' is a lot safer for a lot more people than the deontological extremist who openly muses on the virtue of killing a population group until it learns mercy. Morinth is an amoral nuisance who will hurt small numbers of people over time, and doesn't bother with those who don't play her game: Samara is a zealot who is  not only willing trained to be ready to kill a lot of people at any given time, but has an entire spectrum of rules and regulations that put her at odds with a great number of people with more important roles than her.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 septembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dean_The_Young: Shepard wipes out plenty of criminal groups... for nothing more than the loyalty of his friends.

So - do you accept that Shepard is also a mass murderer?

Is this a trick question? Or are we ignorring Arrival?

Shepard was a war criminal (or, alternatively, a rogue cop) well before the destruction of the Alpha Relay.

But - surely your own view of ethics doesn't force you to side with Morinth just because you view strict moral codes as dangerous and outdated?

Or do you truly believe siding with a sexual predator - serial killer is the lesser of two evils?

If the galaxy weren't riding on Shepard? No. Since it is? The sexual predator who doesn't murder people who say 'no' is a lot safer for a lot more people than the deontological extremist who openly muses on the virtue of killing a population group until it learns mercy. Morinth is an amoral nuisance who will hurt small numbers of people over time, and doesn't bother with those who don't play her game: Samara is a zealot who is  not only willing trained to be ready to kill a lot of people at any given time, but has an entire spectrum of rules and regulations that put her at odds with a great number of people with more important roles than her.

You completely disregard that Justicars are officials. If they were outside of the law, then I would of course stop them. But in Asari culture they have all the right to do what they do. And since Ilium is an Asari planet, Omega is run by an Asari who btw. also isn't too fond of Ardat Yakshi and both Samara and Morinth are both Asari I think Samara does have all the necessary laws on her side.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard was a war criminal (or, alternatively, a rogue cop) well before the destruction of the Alpha Relay.

This is one very simple thought that a lot of people easily overlook, for some reason.

[Dean_the_Young]

1136342t54 wrote...

All Biotics especially Asari biotics can grow in power. There is a reason why they say Matriarchs are some of the strongest biotics around.

No, all biotics don't grow unlimitedly, nor do Asari.  Samara's also already reaching her 'peak' stage.

More to the point of the context, Morinth's biotic growth is exception in how it relates to her power. As a three-hundred year old Maiden, she already

Morinth can be called a mass murderer. There is no telling how many people she has killed in 400 years.

You could also call her the Queen of England. It wouldn't have any bearing, but you could.

A mass murderer is someone who kills a number of people in a single instance. It's not a 'sum killed over time', but 'sum killed in particular incidence.' Your Shepard is a mass murderer. Morinth is a seriel killer.

The only difference is Samara has likely killed many more criminals than innocents. 

'Criminals' defined by a definition that includes potentially mind-controlled thralls, Krogan pit-fighting fans, and honest police officers doing their job.

That's a rather expansive definition of criminal you have there, when it includes people who haven't even broken (or are, in fact, enforcing) the law.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

You completely disregard that Justicars are officials.

Justicars are not officials. The Justicar Order is not state sanctioned, an arm of the state, subordinate to the state, co-equal with the state, or any other official relationship with the state. Justicars exist as a cultural force independent of state-derived authority or sanction.

If they were outside of the law, then I would of course stop them. But in Asari culture they have all the right to do what they do. And since Ilium is an Asari planet, Omega is run by an Asari who btw. also isn't too fond of Ardat Yakshi and both Samara and Morinth are both Asari I think Samara does have all the necessary laws on her side.

You probably think up a lot of rationalizations for culturally-accepted vigilantism, but it's still vigilanties taking their own, personal, interpretation of justice into their own hands and killing those who cross their personal rules.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 septembre 2011 - 08:07 .

[Someone With Mass]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I'm sure Kasumi already did since she's the only one who says anything about Morinth being on board.

Other than that, I'm curious about one thing. If you, say choose Morinth for the metagaming purpose of unlocking "Domination", and you reload the save game immediately before that, does the skill stay unlocked? Didn't try it.

Because that's the only reason to choose her. She should die every time. Even a renegade Shepard wouldn't be so stupid as to pick her. Morinth has no redeeming qualities.

Yep, that works. Did it myself once. Have never bothered rescuing her ever since.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well if you're renegade you should probably kill both. Because Samara killing Shep before he can save the world is just as bad as Morinth doing it.

If you think that any threat, as opposed to types of threats, is equally deserving of being killed.

Morinth is willing to work with you for your current mission, and isn't obliged to kill you afterwards if you cross her morals.

Samara is willing to work with you for your current mission, and warns you from the start that what you do with her now can be used against you afterwords.

[BatmanPWNS]

When all the LI's are dead because of Morinth then I'll love to see the reaction of everyone on BSN. >

[D.Kain]

Morinth becomes a mass murderer once she joins Shepards squad.

Anyway. I wonder where is Morinth going to be for 2 years between Arival and ME3? She would probably want to get a rest after collectors and she probably has nothing to do with the human goverment as don't a lot of other crew members. She could probably settle down somewhere, since she isn't on the run anymore and leave Shepard a contact or something I guess.

[GodWood]

Ryzaki wrote...
I'd be vastly amused if any Shepard that recruited Morinth got the treat of having her kill their LI or a random crew member if they don't have an LI.

Meh, still better then having a catsuit-wearing zealot on board.

[D.Kain]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

When all the LI's are dead because of Morinth then I'll love to see the reaction of everyone on BSN. >

There are a whole bunch of people that I wouldn't bring along anyway. I do love some squad members yes. But if I only had to choose ONE squad member that is going to watch my back it would be Morinth.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Same reason why soldiers are no murderers. It's not the same thing with justification. You can have good reasons to kill someone, believe it or not. I mean take for example self defense. What the police or soldiers do is just an extension of self defense.

The irony of this discussion being aimed at me aside, not everything a soldier does is sanctioned. Soldiers can be murderers: soldiers can even be murderers on the battlefield. Mowing down civilians, starting gunfights in bars not part of any sanctioned mission...

To prevent bad people from going on a killing spree. I posted before in this thread why Samara is more powerful. Read it up or leave it, I don't care.

You made a claim directly opposed to the single most demonstrative comparison in the game: when Samara and Morinth are actually in a test of comparitive strength. Nothing you provided justifies that disreprency.

That Morinth may become more powerful one day doesn't help Shep on the Collector Base and considering her being a ... serial killer ... it is probably best kill her before she becomes more powerful? Logic is hard work, I know.

Good first step. Maybe you'll be able to use it some day. Try extending it to after the Collector Base. Also try factoring in the pattern of black-widow seductress, and how Morinth is neither a rapist nor does she kill frequently outside of sex.

If you start reaching a fuzzy realization that Morinth isn't actually the sort of person to take people by force and rape them if they say no, while Samara certainly is the sort of person to attack the 'unjust' without regards to greater-good arguments...

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...
Anyway. I wonder where is Morinth going to be for 2 years between Arival and ME3?

Brutally murdering one innocent person after another because she gets off on it.  Duh. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Besides the 'brutally.'

That's more of Samara's shin-dig, and she'd certainly be busy with bigger groups.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You completely disregard that Justicars are officials.

Justicars are not officials. The Justicar Order is not state sanctioned, an arm of the state, subordinate to the state, co-equal with the state, or any other official relationship with the state. Justicars exist as a cultural force independent of state-derived authority or sanction.

If they were outside of the law, then I would of course stop them. But in Asari culture they have all the right to do what they do. And since Ilium is an Asari planet, Omega is run by an Asari who btw. also isn't too fond of Ardat Yakshi and both Samara and Morinth are both Asari I think Samara does have all the necessary laws on her side.

You probably think up a lot of rationalizations for culturally-accepted vigilantism, but it's still vigilanties taking their own, personal, interpretation of justice into their own hands and killing those who cross their personal rules.

Vigilantism is illegal in any decent culture. I mean if Justicars can do it, everyone can. Then you don't need police because people are just going to kill each other. I don't think that works. That's why I think Justicars are a sort of law-enforcers, officially.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 septembre 2011 - 08:19 .

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'd be vastly amused if any Shepard that recruited Morinth got the treat of having her kill their LI or a random crew member if they don't have an LI.

Meh, still better then having a catsuit-wearing zealot on board.

Better still is what my renegade Shep did. Both of them are dead. 

[1136342t54_]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, all biotics don't grow unlimitedly, nor do Asari.  Samara's also already reaching her 'peak' stage.

More to the point of the context, Morinth's biotic growth is exception in how it relates to her power. As a three-hundred year old Maiden, she already

Never said they grow exponetially. I was correcting your previous statement since you seemed to assume that Morinth is the only Asari who can grow in power. 

No one was arguing Morinth's ability to become more powerful each kill although the limit is never esplicitly said. It is possibly they are all killed before they reach there limit.

You could also call her the Queen of England. It wouldn't have any bearing, but you could.

A mass murderer is someone who kills a number of people in a single instance. It's not a 'sum killed over time', but 'sum killed in particular incidence.' Your Shepard is a mass murderer. Morinth is a seriel killer.

It doesn't make Shepard worse than Morinth in anyway. Morinth kills many many people for pleasure. Shepard kills in either self defense or the safety of the Galaxy.  Yeah I rather take the one who isn't someone who kills constantly out of an addictive habit which is the sole reason Morinth usually kills.

'Criminals' defined by a definition that includes potentially mind-controlled thralls,

If your talking about those people Morinth sent after Samara then what would you call them? Criminals maybe not but I won't fault Samara for killing them. If its an entire village there are likely hundreds of people all likely Asari with biotic abilities. It is rather difficult to disable all of them.

Krogan pit-fighting fans,

Most of Krogan if not all of them are killers. That is not an assumption since Krogan usually have to fight for the Clan and are warriors when they reach a certain age. Its either in self defense or attacking a enemy clan. I doubt just dog fighting which is likely a very in humane sport in Asari culture is the only reason she would kill those Krogan. Although on Tuchanka I don't believe necessary meant kill those specific Krogan but she did want to cme back to bring some Justice to Tuchanka.

and honest police officers doing their job.

Considering she didn't even want to kill them at all and actually wanted for Shepard to do her job to prevent a incident shows that she didn't kill the officers nor actually portrayed them as Criminals

That's a rather expansive definition of criminal you have there, when it includes people who haven't even broken (or are, in fact, enforcing) the law.

Did you only see the word Criminal when you read the post? I never said she ONLY killed Criminals. It was likely she has killed more Criminals or hell just bad people in general than innocents. Has she killed innocents? Yes I am not denying that and for you to even think I did is just false.

Samara's code isn't perfect but to be honest the only example of the code in which Justicars MUST sacrifice innocents is when pursuing a Ardat yakshi who to Asari is far more dangerous.When she fought Nihlus she was willing to let Nihlus go to save the innocent.  Hell it is possibly largely political since the Asari do not want that knowledge of Ardat Yakshi let out.