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[Golden Owl]

D.Kain wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
Of course it is. If it's not then, you killing Morinth is not justified too ( which it's not anyway ), not talking about thousands of other people Shepard has killed.

So by your reasoning if I imprison a serial killer I am wrong but if I let a serial killer just kill people then the murder is justified?

No, if you imprison a serial killer, that is right. But Morinth was never a serial killer.

But its seclusion so by your reasoning its wrong no matter what.

Seclusion is a punishment. Punishing people if they have done nothing wrong is bad. 

Kain are you trying to argue that Morinth was not a serial killer before her seclusion...so it was wrong to imprison her before she commited murder?

Yes.

Fair enough...I guess personally I see it as something of a double edged sword...the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' sort...Yes, it is pretty damned rough and unjust to lock up someone for a condition their born with, it's not like they get any say....though by the same token, what they have is a very serious threat to others...it's a tough call....I haven't been happy with the lock them up and throw away the key approach to the problem, but steps do need to be taken to ensure the safety of others...I'm not sure what a good alternative solution would be.

[D.Kain]

MisterJB wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
They said she'd mindrape.

Guess what she did....

Morinth chose a life of loneliness on a remote planet, removing herself from society so as to not be tempted and thus proving that not all Ardat-Yakshi are ravening monsters with no control over their urges.

Oh, wait...

She wasn't supposed to do that. Go live alone on a remote planet if you like it. Why should she have done it?

[D.Kain]

MisterJB wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
Locking up AY before they mindraped will never be just in my eyes. 

In Morinth's case, she started mindraping exactly BECAUSE she was asked to go into seclusion.

It does not matter why Morinth started midraping people. It doesn't even matter if she enjoys it or not (which she clearly does).
The very fact that Morinth chose to murder for centuries, enslave entire cities, etc, instead of accepting a life of confortable seclusion is enough to make her a monster.

I do not agree with your statement. Seclusion is bad, she didn't have to choose it.

It's called being selfless.

Yes asari are selfish and don't treat AY fair.

[BlueMagitek]

Already, I've had it with "every individual is part of the majority" nonsense. No, not every individual is part of every damned faction. In the Asari's case, we have a few factions:

Purebloods
Mixed
AY

In terms of size, if the discrimination is any indication, Mixed > Purebloods > AY. Morinth falls into the AY group; not a part of the majority (while she is also a pureblood, the state of being an AY supersedes that). Liara is a pureblood, most of the Asari on Illium seem to be mixed. Now, we can generalize this even more by going to : AY, normal Asari.

So no, not every individual is a part of the majority, every individual is part of the whole. In this case, detaining Morinth, while it may harm the AY faction, keeps the overwhelmingly larger (aka, the majority) non-AY safe.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Not when they pose a clear and present danger to everyone around them.

It doesn't matter. Punishing people BEFORE they did anything wrong is never right!

Doesn't matter.

The safety of the majority is more important than the happiness of the individual.

No it isn't. he majority is made of individuals, every individual is a part of the majority, every individual must be treated fair.

That's not how any society works.

You make things as good as possible for as many people as possible.

That includes locking up those who pose such an incredible danger to everyone around them.

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...
Seclusion is a punishment. Punishing people if they have done nothing wrong is bad. 

False. Seclusion isn't always a punishment.

[D.Kain]

Golden Owl wrote...
Fair enough...I guess personally I see it as something of a double edged sword...the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' sort...Yes, it is pretty damned rough and unjust to lock up someone for a condition their born with, it's not like they get any say....though by the same token, what they have is a very serious threat to others...it's a tough call....I haven't been happy with the lock them up and throw away the key approach to the problem, but steps do need to be taken to ensure the safety of others...I'm not sure what a good alternative solution would be.

I wrote a few dozen posts about how the threat that AY posses would be lesser, if they would be allowed to live with everybody, and what should be done for that to work. Safety never comes before human rights. If I fear of being hit by a car, that doesn't mean that I can tell a driver to stop driving.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Already, I've had it with "every individual is part of the majority" nonsense. No, not every individual is part of every damned faction. In the Asari's case, we have a few factions:

Purebloods
Mixed
AY

In terms of size, if the discrimination is any indication, Mixed > Purebloods > AY. Morinth falls into the AY group; not a part of the majority (while she is also a pureblood, the state of being an AY supersedes that). Liara is a pureblood, most of the Asari on Illium seem to be mixed. Now, we can generalize this even more by going to : AY, normal Asari.

So no, not every individual is a part of the majority, every individual is part of the whole. In this case, detaining Morinth, while it may harm the AY faction, keeps the overwhelmingly larger (aka, the majority) non-AY safe.

I will never stand by seclusion, that is all, it will never be justified in my eyes. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Do you know how addictions work D.Kain?

I mean do you actually understand the mind of an addict?

Because you act like you don't...at all.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
That's not how any society works.

You make things as good as possible for as many people as possible.

That includes locking up those who pose such an incredible danger to everyone around them.

Only people that PROVED to pose danger by doing something wrong can be locked up. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Already, I've had it with "every individual is part of the majority" nonsense. No, not every individual is part of every damned faction. In the Asari's case, we have a few factions:

Purebloods
Mixed
AY

In terms of size, if the discrimination is any indication, Mixed > Purebloods > AY. Morinth falls into the AY group; not a part of the majority (while she is also a pureblood, the state of being an AY supersedes that). Liara is a pureblood, most of the Asari on Illium seem to be mixed. Now, we can generalize this even more by going to : AY, normal Asari.

So no, not every individual is a part of the majority, every individual is part of the whole. In this case, detaining Morinth, while it may harm the AY faction, keeps the overwhelmingly larger (aka, the majority) non-AY safe.

I will never stand by seclusion, that is all, it will never be justified in my eyes. 

Okay we'll just kill them all then.
Much safer for everyone.
After all they can't run if they're dead.

[BlueMagitek]

I don't care what you think about seclusion right now, we're talking about if Morinth is a part of the majority (hint: she isn't).

[MisterJB]

D.Kain wrote...

She wasn't supposed to do that. Go live alone on a remote planet if you like it. Why should she have done it?

Because the alternative is to kill people for the rest of her life. Morinth chose becoming a murderer over being lonely. Is it possible that you can't understand the problem with her logic?
Yes, what happened to her was unfair. Being born with the AY condition is tragic but Morinth lost all reason the first time she knowyingly mindraped an innocent person.

[D.Kain]

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
Seclusion is a punishment. Punishing people if they have done nothing wrong is bad. 

False. Seclusion isn't always a punishment.

Yes it is not always a punishment. If an AY or any other person WANTS to live in seclusion it is not a problem.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
That's not how any society works.

You make things as good as possible for as many people as possible.

That includes locking up those who pose such an incredible danger to everyone around them.

Only people that PROVED to pose danger by doing something wrong can be locked up. 

To you.

Reality however disagrees.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Okay we'll just kill them all then.
Much safer for everyone.
After all they can't run if they're dead.

Right, that would make you a murderer of innocents.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I don't care what you think about seclusion right now, we're talking about if Morinth is a part of the majority (hint: she isn't).

She is a living being, and should have all the right that every asari has.

[Ravensword]

We used to be able to say that Morinth is universally seen as a monster. Now we can only say that Morinth is almost universally seen as a monster.

[D.Kain]

MisterJB wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

She wasn't supposed to do that. Go live alone on a remote planet if you like it. Why should she have done it?

Because the alternative is to kill people for the rest of her life. Morinth chose becoming a murderer over being lonely. Is it possible that you can't understand the problem with her logic?
Yes, what happened to her was unfair. Being born with the AY condition is tragic but Morinth lost all reason the first time she knowyingly mindraped an innocent person.

Morinth mindraped for her survival, and not just because she is an AY, but because of how she was treated for being one.

Modifié par D.Kain, 07 octobre 2011 - 01:31 .

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...
Yes it is not always a punishment. If an AY or any other person WANTS to live in seclusion it is not a problem.

Its not a punishment unless its purpose is specifically there to punish AY. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Okay we'll just kill them all then.
Much safer for everyone.
After all they can't run if they're dead.

Right, that would make you a murderer of innocents.

Just like your hero Morinth!
After all I'm doing it for the survival of many people!

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
That's not how any society works.

You make things as good as possible for as many people as possible.

That includes locking up those who pose such an incredible danger to everyone around them.

Only people that PROVED to pose danger by doing something wrong can be locked up. 

To you.

Reality however disagrees.

Well then don't tell me what is a right choice. It is a video game and I can make any choice I see a being the right one, regardless of what the majority thinks. If I think people should be free, then so it will be.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Free to mindrapemurder you mean.

[D.Kain]

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...
Yes it is not always a punishment. If an AY or any other person WANTS to live in seclusion it is not a problem.

Its not a punishment unless its purpose is specifically there to punish AY. 

It doesn't matter. Don't get into specific words. It is still wrong and unjust.

[D.Kain]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Okay we'll just kill them all then.
Much safer for everyone.
After all they can't run if they're dead.

Right, that would make you a murderer of innocents.

Just like your hero Morinth!
After all I'm doing it for the survival of many people!

You can do it once an AY does something wrong. 
Morinth had a clear reason, you have a CHANCE, it is not the same.