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[BlueMagitek]

Sorry, even I need sleep sometimes.  Now I'm back. ~_^

D.Kain wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

1)  And for the four hundred years she was out killing and ruining the lives of other people, why was her life more important than every other life out there?  And she *is* weaker than Samara, despite having four hundred years worth of lives to buff her strength.
2)  No, that gives her a few options: 1 - submit to justice (of the planet or of the Justicar), 2 - flee, 3 - give in to her addiction and feed, gaining more power. She chose the third one.
3)  She could have fed and moved on, but instead mind washed an entire village that ended up worshipping her and tossed them at her foes the moment things went awry.  She doesn't get any power from the worship.  How is she any different from Jacob's father?
4)  Blaming Samara or the Justicar for Morinth's actions is placing the blame on the wrong person.  They did not order Morinth to take lives or to brainwash people.  They did not threaten her into taking lives.  No, they pursued her.  Were they right to pursue her?  Depends on your point of view, but the point is, she decided to take the lives of others in order to enhance her own.  She made that choice on her own.  You don't blame the police for a murderer shooting a bystander in an attempt to get away, do you?
5)  The murder is addictive for her.  That's made clear, it's like a drug. 

~

2)  We are told (and see firsthand) that Morinth prefers a specific type of person that doesn't fit the "Thug" persona.  Once again you aren't answering a question.
3)  If that's the case, why have the hunt when she can just pose as a prostitute or a dancer?  Because she's a predator!  She enjoys the hunt, she enjoys the kill.  She's obviously doing it for pleasure.

1) The same reason why her life was less important then the life of other asari that wanted her to live in seclusion. What comes around goes around. She wasn't weaker than Samara. If she was weaker I wouldn't be able to save her from Samara, because Samara would just deal with her.
2) Maybe she doesn't want to flee to the far dark edges of the galaxy because it would basically be the same as seclusion?
3) Maybe she went into the village and when people found out that she was an Ardat-Yakshi wanted to get rid of her, and she got pissed. We don't really know enough about that village. But it served her survival purpose.
4) Justicars and Samara threatened her life, which pushed her to do certain things. They are to blame. I actually think that Ardat-Yakshi lack empathy because they are shown little.
5) Yes killing brings her physical pleasure. I still believe that a healthy relationship could overshroud that. 
6) Again you don't know that. You only know little about Morinth's life. 
7) I think she has more selfesteem. She is indeed a predator that was made by the Justicars. She is doing it for pleasure, but it is not all she wants in life, it was the best thing that she had after everything that happened, until Shepard. But hey she also loves art and music, games, so she manages to enjoy her life for a little while in all of that chaos.

1)  They are not killing her, they're limiting her freedom so she doesn't go out and murder people with her unstable mind meld.  Regardless of whether you believe something like that is okay or not, it isn't the same as taking her life.  But okay, let's accept for a moment that it's okay for Morinth to kill Asari because they accept the entire AY thing (a bold statement to make).  Here's the thing; she doesn't just kill Asari.  Walk around her apartment and see her "trophies", she kills other species too,who probably have no idea what an AY is.  What makes her life more valuable than theirs?
2)  But I thought she just wanted a life away from the Justicars and if she had a life away from them she'd be as happy as a clam at high tide?  You know, not slaughtering everyone and what have you.  Heck, the only reason we managed to find her on Omega is because she's still killing people.
3)  So because people view an AY to be a dangerous creature (called Demons in their mythology), those people deserve to be enslaved and used as fodder?  Another bold claim to make.
4)  Once again, you haven't answered the question.  So what was wrong with the "running" part of the plan?  If she just wanted to get away from Justicar, wouldn't not leaving a trail of bodies with their minds literally blown be the first step of doing that?  
5)  She's an addict.  Have you ever dealt with a real one?
6)  We hear this fact stated by someone who has dealt with Morinth for 400 years.  If you don't believe someone who has been chasing after someone and dealing with all of the people she's killed in her lust, who are you going to believe?  And then you demonstrate in Samara's loyalty mission that it's true!  You have firsthand experience of her tastes.
7)  The Justicar did not make her into a predator.  She found that she enjoys the hunt of killing others in addition to the addictive act.  Say that the Justicar made you kill if you want (an untrue statement), but you can't argue that they control her emotions.  Samara did not force Morinth to manipulate others into falling in love with her so she could savor the hunt before she killed them.  Monsters are allowed to enjoy other things in life.  The fact that she is a cultured monster doesn't change the fact that she's a monster. 

And no, the only thing she wants from Shepard is to finish her hunt on him.

[MagicGis]

even reading all your points I still fail to see how she is more dangerous for your crew and mission than samara. Which basiclly openly states that she rather kills you and let the galaxy get destroied just to value a stupid codex. Morinth seems way more logical to me..

[Arkitekt]

That is utterly ridiculous. Yes, you can choose Shepard to be a dick or a **** and choose Morinth and kill Samara in the process, because at least she won't kill you for a code. First thing is, Samara will never kill you before the mission succeeds (she tells you so), and she will only do so if you force her to do something her code forbids. I haven't seen anything like that in ME2.

Second, Morinth is an addict and will continue to be a dangerous ****. She might even kill someone from your crew just because (she does in fact kill Shepard if you want it).

And the argument that "oh she's so opressed no wonder she behaves bad" gives me an headache just by reading it. Clearly whomever said this has no ****ing clue about psychology. Or anything else really.

[RhiPanda]

You know what would be a really bad reason for killing Samara and taking Morinth?
Who is gonna trust Shep after she kills somebody commited to their cause and replaces her with a serial killer? Everyone on your team is gonna be mistrustful of Shep after that, not to mention the Asari for killing a Justicar who are highly respected among them.

[EternalSea]

RhiPanda wrote...

You know what would be a really bad reason for killing Samara and taking Morinth?
Who is gonna trust Shep after she kills somebody commited to their cause and replaces her with a serial killer? Everyone on your team is gonna be mistrustful of Shep after that, not to mention the Asari for killing a Justicar who are highly respected among them.

This would be quite a good moment if brought up in the trial. As for the crew, I wonder what Garrus would do about it.

[MagicGis]

Arkitekt wrote...

That is utterly ridiculous. Yes, you can choose Shepard to be a dick or a **** and choose Morinth and kill Samara in the process, because at least she won't kill you for a code. First thing is, Samara will never kill you before the mission succeeds (she tells you so), and she will only do so if you force her to do something her code forbids. I haven't seen anything like that in ME2.

Second, Morinth is an addict and will continue to be a dangerous ****. She might even kill someone from your crew just because (she does in fact kill Shepard if you want it).

And the argument that "oh she's so opressed no wonder she behaves bad" gives me an headache just by reading it. Clearly whomever said this has no ****ing clue about psychology. Or anything else really.

Like I mentioned 1 site ago... it is no problem to reach that point in ME 2 ... i did a paragon/renegade mix and had her on most missions with me.

Which lead not only to her clearly stating " When I see you after the mission is over I will kill you" but also threathening some other crew members for their actions (Jack, the Doc, etc.)

The mission she is talking about is not to defeat the reapers, but to  stop the collectors in the suicide Mission. So if you let her surive this mission. She openly admits that she will try to kill you and various crewmates next time she sees you. Which will be in ME 3. i dont need to explain that this is plain stupid since it puts the entry galaxy in danger.

True is if you choose yourself to get killed ...Morinth will do so... but she doesnt try to kill you offensive, you know that you will die if you do her...how stupid do you have to be to jump in ?

As for other crewmates, sure she is an addict and needs to be feeded sometimes, but she seems also a clam logical thinker, she knows its over for her if she doesnt behae. Also its cleary stated which type of prey she preffers and most crewmates just doesnt fit in.

Samara, on the other hand, doesnt make this kind of logic choices, she just follows her codex like a blind sheep. And kills off everyone she feel violating it, also non asari btw which shouldnt be under her Justice... If we know look at out crew at least half of them are in danger to get killed of by her after the mission: Jack, The doc, Thane, Zaed, are dead for sure while some others are in danger but not sure to be on her hitlist.

You have to realise she just follows shepard because of her codex, because of her oath, he ends with the end of the suicide Mission, and than she will act in her black and white sight, that is no good for the greater goal again. While Morinth chooses to follow you because of her personal motives and free will. She is way more under control.

Maybe Samara didnt make those statemants towards you since you made other decisions. But it is really not that hard to get those out of her ( my paragon meter was nearly full too) and that shows cleary what she is. A crazy Fanatic that cant be trusted in ME 3 since she is not bound by her oath anymore.  If you see that there is no way you can let her life, shw knows way too much, is so close, and can turn against you everytime you have to do something not so nice to save the galaxy, because her fanatism is more important to her.

[BlueMagitek]

MagicGis wrote...

even reading all your points I still fail to see how she is more dangerous for your crew and mission than samara. Which basiclly openly states that she rather kills you and let the galaxy get destroied just to value a stupid codex. Morinth seems way more logical to me..

The mission she is talking about is not to defeat the reapers, but
to  stop the collectors in the suicide Mission. So if you let her surive
this mission. She openly admits that she will try to kill you and
various crewmates next time she sees you. Which will be in ME 3. i dont
need to explain that this is plain stupid since it puts the entry galaxy
in danger.

You have to realise she just follows shepard because of her
codex, because of her oath, he ends with the end of the suicide Mission,
and than she will act in her black and white sight, that is no good for
the greater goal again. While Morinth chooses to follow you because of
her personal motives and free will. She is way more under control.

I was referring to Morinth being "innocent" or whatever Kain is arguing. 

Samara is bound by a code to serve & obey you, Morinth is not.  If you really fear Samara, your Shepard could have killed her on the Suicide mission.

And, if you are the Renegade that you seem to be, you know all you have to do is take an innocent hostage.  Samara straight up tells you that's how Nihlius escaped her. >_>

[Dean_the_Young]

So now all Renegades are hostages takers?

Probably going to call them child-molesters next.

[Ramus Quaritch]

She is a serial killer with a constant urge and lust to kill. She's going to kill more people. If she survives ME2, I can easily see a side questline to hunt her down. You don't have to necessarily make her "evil" in ME3, but I would like to see some blowback from not killing her in ME2.

[Ramus Quaritch]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So now all Renegades are hostages takers?

Probably going to call them child-molesters next.

Renegades will do what is necessary.  If you've got a galaxy to save and you have to make the hard, unpopular decisions, you will want to do what's necessary to deal with Samara if she comes after you.  You'll take a hostage if it means getting Samara off your a**.  Granted, Bioware may make that the "evil" choice, but there is logical justification for doing it.  

[BlueMagitek]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So now all Renegades are hostages takers?

Probably going to call them child-molesters next.

Wow, talk about a leap.

Well, less of a leap and more of a blind jump off a cliff.

All I did was offer an exceptionally easy out for a Renegade player who feels threatened by Samara.  And really, considering renegade is supposed to be doing what needs to be done, taking a hostage to distract Samara is an easy choice.

[Nizzemancer]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Honestly though, I cannot fathom why people think curing the genophage is a good idea.

Some men just want to watch the world galaxy burn.

No no no, I kill the bus driver Ardat Yakshi.

[tonnactus]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

She is a serial killer with a constant urge and lust to kill.

No problem. There are enough people like Donovan Hock(who remember the dialogue with shepardt will see that such a person fits far more as a victim then nef) in the galaxy. Nef as a victim never made any sense and was a example of bad writing in Mass Effect 2. I rahter see that as a exception of the rule.

[Anacronian Stryx]

People who argue for Morinth are basically arguing that we should release murdering psychopath's into society because they have diagnosable sickness.

It really doesn't matter if you're born with a defect that makes you want to commit murder or it's something you developed growing up, All that matters is that if you want to murder people society(any society) will lock you up and rightly so.

[Killjoy Cutter]

tonnactus wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

She is a serial killer with a constant urge and lust to kill.

No problem. There are enough people like Donovan Hock(who remember the dialogue with shepardt will see that such a person fits far more as a victim then nef) in the galaxy. Nef as a victim never made any sense and was a example of bad writing in Mass Effect 2. I rahter see that as a exception of the rule.

What, Nef being an artist wasn't enough? 

Predators go for vulnerable prey. 

[sorentoft]

EternalSea wrote...

RhiPanda wrote...

You know what would be a really bad reason for killing Samara and taking Morinth?
Who is gonna trust Shep after she kills somebody commited to their cause and replaces her with a serial killer? Everyone on your team is gonna be mistrustful of Shep after that, not to mention the Asari for killing a Justicar who are highly respected among them.

This would be quite a good moment if brought up in the trial. As for the crew, I wonder what Garrus would do about it.

Talk in a sexy voice and get Shepard cleared from all charges.

Modifié par sorentoft, 28 septembre 2011 - 06:41 .

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

1)  They are not killing her, they're limiting her freedom so she doesn't go out and murder people with her unstable mind meld.  Regardless of whether you believe something like that is okay or not, it isn't the same as taking her life.  But okay, let's accept for a moment that it's okay for Morinth to kill Asari because they accept the entire AY thing (a bold statement to make).  Here's the thing; she doesn't just kill Asari.  Walk around her apartment and see her "trophies", she kills other species too,who probably have no idea what an AY is.  What makes her life more valuable than theirs?
2)  But I thought she just wanted a life away from the Justicars and if she had a life away from them she'd be as happy as a clam at high tide?  You know, not slaughtering everyone and what have you.  Heck, the only reason we managed to find her on Omega is because she's still killing people.
3)  So because people view an AY to be a dangerous creature (called Demons in their mythology), those people deserve to be enslaved and used as fodder?  Another bold claim to make.
4)  Once again, you haven't answered the question.  So what was wrong with the "running" part of the plan?  If she just wanted to get away from Justicar, wouldn't not leaving a trail of bodies with their minds literally blown be the first step of doing that?  
5)  She's an addict.  Have you ever dealt with a real one?
6)  We hear this fact stated by someone who has dealt with Morinth for 400 years.  If you don't believe someone who has been chasing after someone and dealing with all of the people she's killed in her lust, who are you going to believe?  And then you demonstrate in Samara's loyalty mission that it's true!  You have firsthand experience of her tastes.
7)  The Justicar did not make her into a predator.  She found that she enjoys the hunt of killing others in addition to the addictive act.  Say that the Justicar made you kill if you want (an untrue statement), but you can't argue that they control her emotions.  Samara did not force Morinth to manipulate others into falling in love with her so she could savor the hunt before she killed them.  Monsters are allowed to enjoy other things in life.  The fact that she is a cultured monster doesn't change the fact that she's a monster. 

And no, the only thing she wants from Shepard is to finish her hunt on him.

1) They do want to kill her, because she wan't to live OUT of seclusion. But wanting to live out of seclusion does not equal wanting to kill people, but in their eyes it is. Morinth could live OUT of seclusion and NOT kill people, if she was left alone. Her life is more important to her, yes, that's why she starts killing.
2) She wants a life like other normal people. To hangout where they do, to do the same things from time to time. That's why she is visiting vilages, clubs. 
3) No because they want AY to live in seclusion they deserve that.
4) I believe that she just wanted to deal with Samara at some point and stop running.
5) That can be changed, since her killing was the means to survive and not her primary goal. Addicts can stop too. Even though she doesn't seem to lose control, she seems very calm on the ship for a good period of time.
6) This someone sees things as black and white. I don't except what she has to say because she says what she thinks. She does believe what she thinks, but I don't.
7) I basically said it both in 1) and 3).

[D.Kain]

RhiPanda wrote...

You know what would be a really bad reason for killing Samara and taking Morinth?
Who is gonna trust Shep after she kills somebody commited to their cause and replaces her with a serial killer? Everyone on your team is gonna be mistrustful of Shep after that, not to mention the Asari for killing a Justicar who are highly respected among them.

Why would they? Maybe if I treated them bad yes, but I completed all of their loyalty missions. It's not like they were BFF with Samara.

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

1)  They are not killing her, they're limiting her freedom so she doesn't go out and murder people with her unstable mind meld.  Regardless of whether you believe something like that is okay or not, it isn't the same as taking her life.  But okay, let's accept for a moment that it's okay for Morinth to kill Asari because they accept the entire AY thing (a bold statement to make).  Here's the thing; she doesn't just kill Asari.  Walk around her apartment and see her "trophies", she kills other species too,who probably have no idea what an AY is.  What makes her life more valuable than theirs?
2)  But I thought she just wanted a life away from the Justicars and if she had a life away from them she'd be as happy as a clam at high tide?  You know, not slaughtering everyone and what have you.  Heck, the only reason we managed to find her on Omega is because she's still killing people.
3)  So because people view an AY to be a dangerous creature (called Demons in their mythology), those people deserve to be enslaved and used as fodder?  Another bold claim to make.
4)  Once again, you haven't answered the question.  So what was wrong with the "running" part of the plan?  If she just wanted to get away from Justicar, wouldn't not leaving a trail of bodies with their minds literally blown be the first step of doing that?  
5)  She's an addict.  Have you ever dealt with a real one?
6)  We hear this fact stated by someone who has dealt with Morinth for 400 years.  If you don't believe someone who has been chasing after someone and dealing with all of the people she's killed in her lust, who are you going to believe?  And then you demonstrate in Samara's loyalty mission that it's true!  You have firsthand experience of her tastes.
7)  The Justicar did not make her into a predator.  She found that she enjoys the hunt of killing others in addition to the addictive act.  Say that the Justicar made you kill if you want (an untrue statement), but you can't argue that they control her emotions.  Samara did not force Morinth to manipulate others into falling in love with her so she could savor the hunt before she killed them.  Monsters are allowed to enjoy other things in life.  The fact that she is a cultured monster doesn't change the fact that she's a monster. 

And no, the only thing she wants from Shepard is to finish her hunt on him.

1) They do want to kill her, because she wan't to live OUT of seclusion. But wanting to live out of seclusion does not equal wanting to kill people, but in their eyes it is. Morinth could live OUT of seclusion and NOT kill people, if she was left alone. Her life is more important to her, yes, that's why she starts killing.
2) She wants a life like other normal people. To hangout where they do, to do the same things from time to time. That's why she is visiting vilages, clubs. 
3) No because they want AY to live in seclusion they deserve that.
4) I believe that she just wanted to deal with Samara at some point and stop running.
5) That can be changed, since her killing was the means to survive and not her primary goal. Addicts can stop too. Even though she doesn't seem to lose control, she seems very calm on the ship for a good period of time.
6) This someone sees things as black and white. I don't except what she has to say because she says what she thinks. She does believe what she thinks, but I don't.
7) I basically said it both in 1) and 3).

1) She'd murder people no matter what, she's an adict and a sociopath. 
2) No, she wants to keep murdering people for thrills.
3) They want AY's to live in seclusion so that they don't murder people.
4) Wrong, she wanted to keep murdering people.
5) The murdering is her primary goal.

[D.Kain]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

People who argue for Morinth are basically arguing that we should release murdering psychopath's into society because they have diagnosable sickness.

It really doesn't matter if you're born with a defect that makes you want to commit murder or it's something you developed growing up, All that matters is that if you want to murder people society(any society) will lock you up and rightly so.

No I already said that not everybody think like that. I am would be willing to risk my life to not make other people outcasts, and I believe that they would try to be nice to me in return.

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

1) She'd murder people no matter what, she's an adict and a sociopath. 
2) No, she wants to keep murdering people for thrills.
3) They want AY's to live in seclusion so that they don't murder people.
4) Wrong, she wanted to keep murdering people.
5) The murdering is her primary goal.

Have you even talked to Morinth? A person you are discribing sound more like Hulk...

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

People who argue for Morinth are basically arguing that we should release murdering psychopath's into society because they have diagnosable sickness.

It really doesn't matter if you're born with a defect that makes you want to commit murder or it's something you developed growing up, All that matters is that if you want to murder people society(any society) will lock you up and rightly so.

No I already said that not everybody think like that. I am would be willing to risk my life to not make other people outcasts, and I believe that they would try to be nice to me in return.

If you were nice to Morinth, she would either murder you for the thrill, or if you weren't to her tastes, she'd ignore you or use you for something else. 

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If you were nice to Morinth, she would either murder you for the thrill, or if you weren't to her tastes, she'd ignore you or use you for something else. 

And I will just going to say that you are wrong. lol

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

1) She'd murder people no matter what, she's an adict and a sociopath. 
2) No, she wants to keep murdering people for thrills.
3) They want AY's to live in seclusion so that they don't murder people.
4) Wrong, she wanted to keep murdering people.
5) The murdering is her primary goal.

Have you even talked to Morinth? A person you are discribing sound more like Hulk...

We see the trail she leaves behind and the way she uses people. 

And I've talked to her in her apartment before she tries to kill Shep.  She goes on and on about how much she enjoys killing, how much she loves to see the fear in her opponent's eyes, how she "devours" her suitors.  She tells you herself how much of a monster she is if you take off the rose-colored earplugs and listen.