3434 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Kain]

111987 wrote...

Of course it's not easy, but my point was that if Morinth really was a good person, she would have found another way to kill/avoid Samara without killing the dozens, if not hundreds of indiivudals she has through the centuries.

She isn't a good person! And don't say she is. I say that she was justified to be a bad person. Now that Samara is dead and she has a friend, she is not so justified, she will probably rethink her ways.

[silentassassin264]

111987 wrote...

If all Morinth was trying to do was kill her mother, why spend 400 years trying to mate with enough people and became powerful enough? Why not just lay a trap, hire assassins, blow up the ship she's on, etc...? There were other options for Morinth to take.

She is clearly addicted. If her only motivation was to become powerful enough to defeat Samara, why wouldn't she say that to Shepard to try and win him/her over?

Because Samara is not an idiot and most people would not dare cross a Justicar.  If you bothered to listen to conversations, you would notice Samara said that pirates wouldn't even attack the ships she was mooching a free ride off of because they did not want to cross a Justicar.  How is Morinth going to successfully trap someone who is an expert hunter like that, or recruit an assassin stupid enough to take that job, etc. etc.  They were other options and they were all stupid.  You also have to keep in mind that it was not just Samara who would be after her as she would be known as a criminal in all of Asari space.

1136342t54 wrote...

Morinth knew what running away would
do. She knew that she would have to meld and kill innocents. Hell
Morinth doesn't even necessarily have to meld and kill for 400 YEARS.
The Galaxy is a Huge ****ing place and the times that Samara is able to
track Morinth is due to her addictive habbit in killing people. The more
she killed the more she made herself known. If Moringth COULD be
abstinate she would have and it would be that much more difficult for
Samara or any Justicar to track her.

The fact is that she can't.
The fact that she has a certain type and loves to use sex appeal and
drugs to lure her victims are signs of a very very good sexual predator.
Here is even more evidence of this. If Morinth wanted to be abstinate
she would have never even tried to meld with Shepard.

Yeah she knew what running would involve but she also knew it was her only chance at freedom and she was selfish enough to count her freedom as worth it but consider the plight of her sisters that did submit from LotSB.  The only person in the galaxy that bothered to talk to them was Samara so they were separated from everything else and when Samara was off doing something it left them alone and isolated in a prison.  Keep in mind that Asari can live for 1000 years.  Near one thousand years in a freaking prison with only one lifeline (who when she dies, you are screwed) for no reason than you were born the wrong way.  Morinth was weighing life on the run as a serial killer versus that horrible life.

[Biotic Sage]

D.Kain wrote...

111987 wrote...

Of course it's not easy, but my point was that if Morinth really was a good person, she would have found another way to kill/avoid Samara without killing the dozens, if not hundreds of indiivudals she has through the centuries.

She isn't a good person! And don't say she is. I say that she was justified to be a bad person. Now that Samara is dead and she has a friend, she is not so justified, she will probably rethink her ways.

Disproven: Critical mission failure as she gleefully kills Shepard in an erotic psychic romp.

[essarr71]

silentassassin264 wrote...
  It isn't rocket science to figure out why she picked the option she did. 

Exactly.  She knew exactly what she would need to do.. kill people.  So instead of living a long life in whatever made up conditions you feel to make truth to justify your position, she chose killing an innocent to avoid it.

For all we know Morinths sisters are productive Asari, content in their life knowing they're dangerous without the help her people afford her, even knowing how dangerous they can be.  But hey, cling to the idea theyre locked in a tower by themselves, guarded by a dragon and waiting for a prince shepard to save them.. they'll keep waiting, he's busy saving other people from, you know, killers.

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

1)  They are not killing her, they're limiting her freedom so she doesn't go out and murder people with her unstable mind meld.  Regardless of whether you believe something like that is okay or not, it isn't the same as taking her life.  But okay, let's accept for a moment that it's okay for Morinth to kill Asari because they accept the entire AY thing (a bold statement to make).  Here's the thing; she doesn't just kill Asari.  Walk around her apartment and see her "trophies", she kills other species too,who probably have no idea what an AY is.  What makes her life more valuable than theirs?
2)  But I thought she just wanted a life away from the Justicars and if she had a life away from them she'd be as happy as a clam at high tide?  You know, not slaughtering everyone and what have you.  Heck, the only reason we managed to find her on Omega is because she's still killing people.
3)  So because people view an AY to be a dangerous creature (called Demons in their mythology), those people deserve to be enslaved and used as fodder?  Another bold claim to make.
4)  Once again, you haven't answered the question.  So what was wrong with the "running" part of the plan?  If she just wanted to get away from Justicar, wouldn't not leaving a trail of bodies with their minds literally blown be the first step of doing that?  
5)  She's an addict.  Have you ever dealt with a real one?
6)  We hear this fact stated by someone who has dealt with Morinth for 400 years.  If you don't believe someone who has been chasing after someone and dealing with all of the people she's killed in her lust, who are you going to believe?  And then you demonstrate in Samara's loyalty mission that it's true!  You have firsthand experience of her tastes.
7)  The Justicar did not make her into a predator.  She found that she enjoys the hunt of killing others in addition to the addictive act.  Say that the Justicar made you kill if you want (an untrue statement), but you can't argue that they control her emotions.  Samara did not force Morinth to manipulate others into falling in love with her so she could savor the hunt before she killed them.  Monsters are allowed to enjoy other things in life.  The fact that she is a cultured monster doesn't change the fact that she's a monster. 

And no, the only thing she wants from Shepard is to finish her hunt on him.

1) They do want to kill her, because she wan't to live OUT of seclusion. But wanting to live out of seclusion does not equal wanting to kill people, but in their eyes it is. Morinth could live OUT of seclusion and NOT kill people, if she was left alone. Her life is more important to her, yes, that's why she starts killing.
2) She wants a life like other normal people. To hangout where they do, to do the same things from time to time. That's why she is visiting vilages, clubs. 
3) No because they want AY to live in seclusion they deserve that.
4) I believe that she just wanted to deal with Samara at some point and stop running.
5) That can be changed, since her killing was the means to survive and not her primary goal. Addicts can stop too. Even though she doesn't seem to lose control, she seems very calm on the ship for a good period of time.
6) This someone sees things as black and white. I don't except what she has to say because she says what she thinks. She does believe what she thinks, but I don't.
7) I basically said it both in 1) and 3).

1)  You're right, they want to kill her because she ran.   But there is no evidence that Morinth can live out of seclusion and not kill people now that she's addicted to the mind meld.  See: her entire life.
2)  Normal people don't become addicted to killing others.  Normal people don't take over Asari villages.  Normal people don't hunt other people to fufill their addictions.  Morinth != normal.
3)  ...they deserve to die for an opinion?  Wow.  So this extreme minority, which has been proven to be dangerous, has the right to murder people who think they should be segregated? 

No. 

You can say that the segregation of the AY is wrong, and it very well may be, but you don't get to say that it gives her free reign to kill people who disagree with that.  

4)  Or she could just not kill people, which would keep Samara off the trail (if she never killed Nef, we wouldn't have found her).  But wait, she can't, she's an addicted monster.  Clearly she has the right to kill people. '

5) So I'm going to assume that no, you've never met an addict and you don't know what addiction can do to a person.  Basically the body begins to develop a dependency on the feeling that the substance will produce.  As Morinth has been doing this for 400 years, that's a very strong addiction and she's never shown any remorse or any inclination to cure herself of it.

Do you know why she seems alright?  She just had her fix by killing Nef.  Fixes last a certain period of time.  And, as you can tell, she begins to want another one right after the SM.  

6)  So now you're just going to straight up ignore the evidence, that is proven in game, because you don't trust Samara's word?   You don't trust Samara's word on someone that she has been hunting for four hundred years.  And yet you believe Morinth, a known killer who tried to do the same to you, right off the bat.

Wow. 

7) And once again you offer no argument.  For a moment, let's accept that the Justicar are causing her to kill.  How are they causing her to toy with the emotions of the people she's hunting?

Honestly, you're treating the Justicar like some sort of god.  They aren't the cause of every single wrong of Morinth's life and they don't control her every deed.

D.Kain wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

1)
It's possible to get Morinth's attention in the club without being a
"thug".  Your choices in the playthrough aren't all the available
choices.

2) She was talking about her past victims, people she's killed in duels, etc.

3)
her goal is to keep melding with and thus murdering people, so that she
can become stronger, so that she can keep melding/murdering, so
that... 

And there's still Nef, the girl who was going to be a
great artist, get both herself and her mother off Omega, etc.  Instead,
Morinth murdered her for the thrill. 

Look I
just don't believe that Morinth's motives are just melding and getting
high. She doesn't seem like that kind of person to me from her
diologues.

You mean the dialogs where she makes clear she likes killing and taking trophies from her dead? 

D.Kain wrote...

RhiPanda wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

RhiPanda wrote...

Samara
wouldn't have found her if she wasn't killing peopple because there
would not have been a trail, if she had changed her name and just lived
her life without killing Samara most likely would not have found
her.

I agree, it is possible, but it is a wild chance.
Morinth thought that she would rather be strong and be prepeared, and
get rid of Samara afterwards.

You have no idea
what Morinth thought though, the arguments you are using to defend
Morinth are coming from ideas you have come up with yourself, not from
any in-game evidence

My arguments are coming from
putting myself in Morinth shoes, and what would probably be my actions.
I would never live in seclusion and would be pissed at everybody if I
would have to locked up ( even if it's a nice place ) or be killed.

Are we allowing make believe into arguments now?  I can put myself in Sovereigns shoes and make different actions, but that doesn't change was Soveriegn has done or his motives for doing so. 

Saying "I would do differently in that situation!"  holds no weight because we aren't talking about what you would have done; we're talking about what this person (who is not you) has done.

[D.Kain]

Biotic Sage wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

111987 wrote...

Of course it's not easy, but my point was that if Morinth really was a good person, she would have found another way to kill/avoid Samara without killing the dozens, if not hundreds of indiivudals she has through the centuries.

She isn't a good person! And don't say she is. I say that she was justified to be a bad person. Now that Samara is dead and she has a friend, she is not so justified, she will probably rethink her ways.

Disproven: Critical mission failure as she gleefully kills Shepard in an erotic psychic romp.

Lol. If I was given 5 bucks everytime I explain that scene.. 

Just no, she didn't want to kill Shepard, that scene proves it for me.

[EternalSea]

Gah, forget Mr D here. This is like Conrad's new found fandom...

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

111987 wrote...

Of course it's not easy, but my point was that if Morinth really was a good person, she would have found another way to kill/avoid Samara without killing the dozens, if not hundreds of indiivudals she has through the centuries.

She isn't a good person! And don't say she is. I say that she was justified to be a bad person. Now that Samara is dead and she has a friend, she is not so justified, she will probably rethink her ways.

We know this isn't true, given that Morinth lies to, manipulates, and murders Shepard at the very first opportunity. 

[1136342t54_]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Yeah she knew what running would involve but she also knew it was her only chance at freedom and she was selfish enough to count her freedom as worth it but consider the plight of her sisters that did submit from LotSB.  The only person in the galaxy that bothered to talk to them was Samara so they were separated from everything else and when Samara was off doing something it left them alone and isolated in a prison.  Keep in mind that Asari can live for 1000 years.  Near one thousand years in a freaking prison with only one lifeline (who when she dies, you are screwed) for no reason than you were born the wrong way.  Morinth was weighing life on the run as a serial killer versus that horrible life. 

You are making a lot of assumptions on how this 'prison' is like. What do you think they are put in padded room cells or something? It is highly unlikely especially for the Asari. It is quite possible they are put in a fairly large but very very secure house with all the comforts of a middle class life with just no real contact with the outside world. Sure its a bad life but I rather have them there then out killing people. Plus it still doesn't justify Morinth killing others and if you even support that then you have twisted or confused set of ethics.

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

111987 wrote...

Of course it's not easy, but my point was that if Morinth really was a good person, she would have found another way to kill/avoid Samara without killing the dozens, if not hundreds of indiivudals she has through the centuries.

She isn't a good person! And don't say she is. I say that she was justified to be a bad person. Now that Samara is dead and she has a friend, she is not so justified, she will probably rethink her ways.

We know this isn't true, given that Morinth lies to, manipulates, and murders Shepard at the very first opportunity. 

Omg.  I guess you could interpret that scene differentely. It only means that it isn't crystal clear.

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

Lol. If I was given 5 bucks everytime I explain that scene.. 

Just no, she didn't want to kill Shepard, that scene proves it for me.

How does it prove for you?

[111987]

[quote]silentassassin264 wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...

If all Morinth was trying to do was kill her mother, why spend 400 years trying to mate with enough people and became powerful enough? Why not just lay a trap, hire assassins, blow up the ship she's on, etc...? There were other options for Morinth to take.

She is clearly addicted. If her only motivation was to become powerful enough to defeat Samara, why wouldn't she say that to Shepard to try and win him/her over?

[/quote]
Because Samara is not an idiot and most people would not dare cross a Justicar.  If you bothered to listen to conversations, you would notice Samara said that pirates wouldn't even attack the ships she was mooching a free ride off of because they did not want to cross a Justicar.  How is Morinth going to successfully trap someone who is an expert hunter like that, or recruit an assassin stupid enough to take that job, etc. etc.  They were other options and they were all stupid.  You also have to keep in mind that it was not just Samara who would be after her as she would be known as a criminal in all of Asari space.

Um, I did 'bother' to listen to the conversations. Morinth can pretty much mind-control people; if she wanted to send someone after Samara, she could. Samara is only feared in Asari space; pretty much any Terminus assassin would have no problem going after Samara. Obviously it's unlikely they would be successful, but all it takes is one slip up on Samara's part. It's not like being a Justicar would stop an assassin from putting a round through her head with a sniper rifle from half a mile away.

Also, why couldn't she just hide? If she isn't killing anyone, Samara would never find her. The galaxy is a big place.

[quote]D.Kain wrote...

[quote]111987 wrote...

Of course
it's not easy, but my point was that if Morinth really was a good
person, she would have found another way to kill/avoid Samara without
killing the dozens, if not hundreds of indiivudals she has through the
centuries.

[/quote]

She isn't a good person! And don't say
she is. I say that she was justified to be a bad person. Now that
Samara is dead and she has a friend, she is not so justified, she will
probably rethink her ways.

[/quote]

Which is why she tries to seduce Shepard, the person who ended her 400 yearlong chase?

[Biotic Sage]

D.Kain wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

111987 wrote...

Of course it's not easy, but my point was that if Morinth really was a good person, she would have found another way to kill/avoid Samara without killing the dozens, if not hundreds of indiivudals she has through the centuries.

She isn't a good person! And don't say she is. I say that she was justified to be a bad person. Now that Samara is dead and she has a friend, she is not so justified, she will probably rethink her ways.

Disproven: Critical mission failure as she gleefully kills Shepard in an erotic psychic romp.

Lol. If I was given 5 bucks everytime I explain that scene.. 

Just no, she didn't want to kill Shepard, that scene proves it for me.

She's the one who suggested it in the first place.  She was smiling.  She did it.  All of that equals: she wanted to mindf*ck Shepard.

If you are referring to the one counter-evidence where she asks, "Are you sure?"  you are mistaking the game designers giving the player one last chance to back out from certain death with Morinth being hesitant and reluctant to go through with the mindf*cking.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[D.Kain]

EVERYBODY

You like, Mr. Biotic Sage just think that it ok to lock potentialy dangerous people up for your safety.
The asari think the same. Morinth's sisters think the same.
I do not believe that, Morinth does not believe that, some others do not believe that.
And everything else that happened is the result of that different perspective.

[silentassassin264]

essarr71 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
  It isn't rocket science to figure out why she picked the option she did. 

Exactly.  She knew exactly what she would need to do.. kill people.  So instead of living a long life in whatever made up conditions you feel to make truth to justify your position, she chose killing an innocent to avoid it.

For all we know Morinths sisters are productive Asari, content in their life knowing they're dangerous without the help her people afford her, even knowing how dangerous they can be.  But hey, cling to the idea theyre locked in a tower by themselves, guarded by a dragon and waiting for a prince shepard to save them.. they'll keep waiting, he's busy saving other people from, you know, killers.

She chose to become a criminal to avoid going to prison for one thousand years.

Secondly, it doesn't matter how productive Morinth's sisters are, they are not free.  They cannot travel anywhere.  They can't go talk to friends if they want to.  In fact, they don't even have any friends as evidence by the LotSB dossier.  Their lives suck and Morinth wanted to avoid that and she has just enough sociopathy to sacrifice hundreds of people to do it. 

[EternalSea]

D.Kain wrote...

EVERYBODY 

You like, Mr. Biotic Sage just think that it ok to lock potentialy dangerous people up for your safety. 
The asari think the same. Morinth's sisters think the same. 
I do not believe that, Morinth does not believe that, some others do not believe that. 
And everything else that happened is the result of that different perspective.

"We believe you believe it, but that doesn't make it true."

Modifié par EternalSea, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:53 .

[D.Kain]

Biotic Sage wrote...

She's the one who suggested it in the first place.  She was smiling.  She did it.  All of that equals: she wanted to mindf*ck Shepard.

If you are referring to the one counter-evidence where she asks, "Are you sure?"  you are mistaking the game designers giving the player one last chance to back out from certain death with Morinth being hesitant and reluctant to go through with the mindf*cking.

I've watched that video too many times. Here's how it goes: 

1) Moritnh melds with Shepard.
2) It is pleasurable and when it ends with her smile, as if asking: So how was it? 
3) Then Shepard dies, and it shows her back, with her hand falling down. 
4) At that moment her smile can might as well fly away, and she thinks something like: Not even you...

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

EVERYBODY

You like, Mr. Biotic Sage just think that it ok to lock potentialy dangerous people up for your safety.
The asari think the same. Morinth's sisters think the same.
I do not believe that, Morinth does not believe that, some others do not believe that.
And everything else that happened is the result of that different perspective.

Like I said before people. D.Kain supports Mass murder for the sake of a hot girls freedom.

[Biotic Sage]

silentassassin264 wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
  It isn't rocket science to figure out why she picked the option she did. 

Exactly.  She knew exactly what she would need to do.. kill people.  So instead of living a long life in whatever made up conditions you feel to make truth to justify your position, she chose killing an innocent to avoid it.

For all we know Morinths sisters are productive Asari, content in their life knowing they're dangerous without the help her people afford her, even knowing how dangerous they can be.  But hey, cling to the idea theyre locked in a tower by themselves, guarded by a dragon and waiting for a prince shepard to save them.. they'll keep waiting, he's busy saving other people from, you know, killers.

She chose to become a criminal to avoid going to prison for one thousand years.

Secondly, it doesn't matter how productive Morinth's sisters are, they are not free.  They cannot travel anywhere.  They can't go talk to friends if they want to.  In fact, they don't even have any friends as evidence by the LotSB dossier.  Their lives suck and Morinth wanted to avoid that and she has just enough sociopathy to sacrifice hundreds of people to do it. 

I would act the same way in Morinth's shoes (and by that I mean try to have freedom; I would still try to resist the urge to mindf*ck people to death).  Anyone would.  But I would also understand that society is perfectly within its rights to act the way the Asari do.  It's an unfairness caused by genetics that has no completely fair solution for anyone.  When there is an ethical tossup, however, the tie-breaker goes to the many rather than the few.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

She's the one who suggested it in the first place.  She was smiling.  She did it.  All of that equals: she wanted to mindf*ck Shepard.

If you are referring to the one counter-evidence where she asks, "Are you sure?"  you are mistaking the game designers giving the player one last chance to back out from certain death with Morinth being hesitant and reluctant to go through with the mindf*cking.

I've watched that video too many times. Here's how it goes: 

1) Moritnh melds with Shepard.
2) It is pleasurable and when it ends with her smile, as if asking: So how was it? 
3) Then Shepard dies, and it shows her back, with her hand falling down. 
4) At that moment her smile can might as well fly away, and she thinks something like: Not even you...

You are literally grasping for straws here. That is the weakest evidence you have ever put up. I don't think it is even evidence but I'll check the vid.

[D.Kain]

EternalSea wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

EVERYBODY 

You like, Mr. Biotic Sage just think that it ok to lock potentialy dangerous people up for your safety. 
The asari think the same. Morinth's sisters think the same. 
I do not believe that, Morinth does not believe that, some others do not believe that. 
And everything else that happened is the result of that different perspective.

"We believe you believe it, but that doesn't make it true."

I don't get what you are saying in that sentence. ( English isn't first language.  ) 
You believe that I believe what I believe but I really don't??? 

[EternalSea]

No. I was quoting the Asari council, but obviously it has backfired. Bah.

Modifié par EternalSea, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:57 .

[1136342t54_]

There is no point in arguing with D.Kain anymore. His only evidence for Morinth believing shepard would live is her hand moving slightly away.