3434 réponses à ce sujet

[TobyHasEyes]

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain is attempting to use a strawman argument. A very bad one at that. His little questions are a pathetic way to get people to unintentionally agree with him about Morinth when in fact he screwed up. The way people are answering the question is if they are dealing with people who have no actual addiction to killing or hurting people.

 To be fair, I believe D.Kain may be using this example to show that.. if you believe that Ardat-Yakshi cannot be allowed to live in the general population because despite their expressed wishes they may be unable to not offend in such situations.. then that does suggest that the AY do not have control over those urges

 Which would suggest that Morinth in her current state is totally addicted and her actions are beyond her control, and perhaps in her original state that she was overcome by temptations beyond her control..

[D.Kain]

Here is my stand for these 4 people:

I don't think that it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people up for the safety of others. I don't think it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people for MY safety. I think that everybody should be treated equally, and that judgement should come only AFTER/ONLY if they STILL make crimes.

That is the core of our disagreement here. The where it all starts and the thing that we do not agree on at the start. Everything else is what happens afterwards.

Samara is with those 4 people. Morinth is with me on this.

Modifié par D.Kain, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:08 .

[TobyHasEyes]

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok 4 people have answered yes.

THIS here is the main argument we are dealing with.

No, it is a minor arguement.

The main argument is weather being in a crappy situation gives you the right to use dispropotionate force to make the situation worse for everyone involved.

 Isn't the main argument whether the strength of the AY condition absolves Morinth from her actions? Seeing as we do not know how strong her condition is, then we struggle to answer absolutely

[D.Kain]

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok 4 people have answered yes.

THIS here is the main argument we are dealing with.

No, it is a minor arguement.

The main argument is weather being in a crappy situation gives you the right to use dispropotionate force to make the situation worse for everyone involved.

For Morinth it is THE crappy situation. And yes it gives her the right.

[D.Kain]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok 4 people have answered yes.

THIS here is the main argument we are dealing with.

No, it is a minor arguement.

The main argument is weather being in a crappy situation gives you the right to use dispropotionate force to make the situation worse for everyone involved.

 Isn't the main argument whether the strength of the AY condition absolves Morinth from her actions? Seeing as we do not know how strong her condition is, then we struggle to answer absolutely

I'm not talking about only Morinth here. There could be othe AY in the same situation.

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

Here is my stand for these 4 people:

I don't think that it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people up for the safety of others. I don't think it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people for MY safety. I think that everybody should be treated equally, and that judgement should come only AFTER/ONLY if they STILL make crimes.

That is the core of our disagreement here. The where it all starts and the thing that we do not agree on at the start. Everything else is what happens afterwards.

Samara is with those 4 people. Morinth is with me on this.

The problem with your arguement is that while I can say that preemptive punishement of a crime based on variable 'risk factors' is generally a bad idea, Morinth proved that it was the correct course of action in that case.

If she had escaped and remained celibate, you would have some standing here, and I would probably have sided with Morinth. However, she has committed repeated acts of murder, and most of which were not necessary to maintain her freedom.

At the point where Shepard meets Morinth, she is a highly skilled murderer.

[D.Kain]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok 4 people have answered yes.

THIS here is the main argument we are dealing with.

No, it is a minor arguement.

The main argument is weather being in a crappy situation gives you the right to use dispropotionate force to make the situation worse for everyone involved.

 Isn't the main argument whether the strength of the AY condition absolves Morinth from her actions? Seeing as we do not know how strong her condition is, then we struggle to answer absolutely

Not it isn't. Atleast not for me. I see a whole different problem.

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

For Morinth it is THE crappy situation. And yes it gives her the right.

Your morality is completely arbitrary and generally messed up if you honestly believe that.

[D.Kain]

SandTrout wrote...

The problem with your arguement is that while I can say that preemptive punishement of a crime based on variable 'risk factors' is generally a bad idea, Morinth proved that it was the correct course of action in that case.

If she had escaped and remained celibate, you would have some standing here, and I would probably have sided with Morinth. However, she has committed repeated acts of murder, and most of which were not necessary to maintain her freedom.

At the point where Shepard meets Morinth, she is a highly skilled murderer.

And here I can't prove you wrong. It is a speculation and I would also deal with Morinth if she was given a chance and would still kill. But see Morinth NEVER had a chance and THAT is why I stand by her side.

[TobyHasEyes]

D.Kain wrote...

Here is my stand for these 4 people:

I don't think that it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people up for the safety of others. I don't think it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people for MY safety. I think that everybody should be treated equally, and that judgement should come only AFTER/ONLY if they STILL make crimes.

That is the core of our disagreement here. The where it all starts and the thing that we do not agree on at the start. Everything else is what happens afterwards.

Samara is with those 4 people. Morinth is with me on this.

 I do think our disagreement stems from our lack of complete knowledge of the AY condition..

 Presumably if someone had a genetic condition which meant that would emit airbourne toxins following puberty if around others, then you would agree with them with locked up, as it is certain to happen and beyond their control

 If the AY condition is as determined as the above case, then we are right in suggesting that should be the case.. I presume in that instance you would also. And in the above case, you would not support attempts to break free.. surely?

 The point is that we, in the real world, do not know enough about this fictional condition

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:17 .

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

And here I can't prove you wrong. It is a speculation and I would also deal with Morinth if she was given a chance and would still kill. But see Morinth NEVER had a chance and THAT is why I stand by her side.

You're making excuses for her to justify your own self-destructive morality. She made the situation worse for herself, her mother, and all of her victims knowingly.

The moral math doesn't add up.

You could argue that she doesn't have a reason to act morally, but that doesn't mean that is is moral, it means that she is ammoral.

[D.Kain]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Here is my stand for these 4 people:

I don't think that it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people up for the safety of others. I don't think it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people for MY safety. I think that everybody should be treated equally, and that judgement should come only AFTER/ONLY if they STILL make crimes.

That is the core of our disagreement here. The where it all starts and the thing that we do not agree on at the start. Everything else is what happens afterwards.

Samara is with those 4 people. Morinth is with me on this.

 I do think our disagreement stems from our lack of complete knowledge of the AY condition..

 Presumably if someone had a genetic condition which meant that would emit airbourne toxins following puberty if around others, then you would agree with them with locked up, as it is certain to happen and beyond their control

 If the AY condition is as determined as the above case, then we are right in suggesting that should be the case.. I presume in that instance you would also

 The point is that we, in the real world, do not know enough about this fictional condition

It would be better to kill those people, than lock them up then. Or atleast completely sepperate them from society so what nobody feels injust.

Then again a completely loving society would wear rebreathers around those peole. I just can't hope for that kind of society..

Modifié par D.Kain, 01 octobre 2011 - 09:23 .

[D.Kain]

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

And here I can't prove you wrong. It is a speculation and I would also deal with Morinth if she was given a chance and would still kill. But see Morinth NEVER had a chance and THAT is why I stand by her side.

You're making excuses for her to justify your own self-destructive morality. She made the situation worse for herself, her mother, and all of her victims knowingly.

The moral math doesn't add up.

You could argue that she doesn't have a reason to act morally, but that doesn't mean that is is moral, it means that she is ammoral.

As I said there is nothing I can blame her for. It is perfectly understandable. She was treated ammoraly too.

[TobyHasEyes]

D.Kain wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Here is my stand for these 4 people:

I don't think that it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people up for the safety of others. I don't think it is ok to lock up potently dangerous people for MY safety. I think that everybody should be treated equally, and that judgement should come only AFTER/ONLY if they STILL make crimes.

That is the core of our disagreement here. The where it all starts and the thing that we do not agree on at the start. Everything else is what happens afterwards.

Samara is with those 4 people. Morinth is with me on this.

 I do think our disagreement stems from our lack of complete knowledge of the AY condition..

 Presumably if someone had a genetic condition which meant that would emit airbourne toxins following puberty if around others, then you would agree with them with locked up, as it is certain to happen and beyond their control

 If the AY condition is as determined as the above case, then we are right in suggesting that should be the case.. I presume in that instance you would also

 The point is that we, in the real world, do not know enough about this fictional condition

It would be better to kill those people, than lock them up then. Or atleast completely sepperate them from society so what nobody feels injust.

 Woah, you think it would be better to kill them, rather than attempt to accomodate their condition in as risk-free a way as possible?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Here's what D Kain doesn't seem to get.

Morinth didn't just run and disappear, she didn't fight against her imprisonment.

She ran away, and then did exactly the monsterous, immoral, vile things that the Asari were trying to stop her from doing,

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

It would be better to kill those people, than lock them up then. Or atleast completely sepperate them from society so what nobody feels injust.

You realize that Morinth had this option and rejected it, right?

[D.Kain]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Woah, you think it would be better to kill them, rather than attempt to accomodate their condition in as risk-free a way as possible?

Yeah, and read what I added. 

[1136342t54_]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain is attempting to use a strawman argument. A very bad one at that. His little questions are a pathetic way to get people to unintentionally agree with him about Morinth when in fact he screwed up. The way people are answering the question is if they are dealing with people who have no actual addiction to killing or hurting people.

 To be fair, I believe D.Kain may be using this example to show that.. if you believe that Ardat-Yakshi cannot be allowed to live in the general population because despite their expressed wishes they may be unable to not offend in such situations.. then that does suggest that the AY do not have control over those urges

 Which would suggest that Morinth in her current state is totally addicted and her actions are beyond her control, and perhaps in her original state that she was overcome by temptations beyond her control..

The problem is that the condition of an AY is addictive. The only real thing that could have made her want to meld in the first place was the natural desire to not because it was addictive. It seems only when the AY does it that is when it becomes addictive. Morinth knew this and simply didn't care.

Plus it is seen through history that AY can abuse the **** out of there abilities. It doesn't even have to be the majority of them who does it. Its similar to how Templar Cullen described mages. "If 1 in 6 of all Circle Mages became Abominations all of Thedas would be destroyed." It only takes a minority of AY to be incredibly destructive to the Asari. This is the Asari Republic's version of playing it safe. If they really wanted to play it safe they would kill every AY but obviously that is immoral so the Asari does the next best thing they can do.

[D.Kain]

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

It would be better to kill those people, than lock them up then. Or atleast completely sepperate them from society so what nobody feels injust.

You realize that Morinth had this option and rejected it, right?

No she didn't. And scratch sepperate it wouldn't work. 

[D.Kain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Here's what D Kain doesn't seem to get.

Morinth didn't just run and disappear, she didn't fight against her imprisonment.

She ran away, and then did exactly the monsterous, immoral, vile things that the Asari were trying to stop her from doing,

Running isn't freedom. How many more time? 

She became a monster because she was ALREDY treated like one.

[Killjoy Cutter]

D.Kain wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

The problem with your arguement is that while I can say that preemptive punishement of a crime based on variable 'risk factors' is generally a bad idea, Morinth proved that it was the correct course of action in that case.

If she had escaped and remained celibate, you would have some standing here, and I would probably have sided with Morinth. However, she has committed repeated acts of murder, and most of which were not necessary to maintain her freedom.

At the point where Shepard meets Morinth, she is a highly skilled murderer.

And here I can't prove you wrong. It is a speculation and I would also deal with Morinth if she was given a chance and would still kill. But see Morinth NEVER had a chance and THAT is why I stand by her side.

She had two complete and easily grasped chances to not murder and rape.

1) She could have accepted the confinement, and not murder and raped people. 
2) She could have run away, and not murdered and raped people. 

Instead, she ran away, and kept murdering and raping people. 

[SandTrout]

D.Kain wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

It would be better to kill those people, than lock them up then. Or atleast completely sepperate them from society so what nobody feels injust.

You realize that Morinth had this option and rejected it, right?

No she didn't. And scratch sepperate it wouldn't work. 

Wrong (again). She was offered a life of comfort and seclusion, and rejected it. The Asari speficically attempt to separate them from society in a manner that is least unjust to everyone involved.

[D.Kain]

1136342t54 wrote...

The problem is that the condition of an AY is addictive. The only real thing that could have made her want to meld in the first place was the natural desire to not because it was addictive. It seems only when the AY does it that is when it becomes addictive. Morinth knew this and simply didn't care.

Plus it is seen through history that AY can abuse the **** out of there abilities. It doesn't even have to be the majority of them who does it. Its similar to how Templar Cullen described mages. "If 1 in 6 of all Circle Mages became Abominations all of Thedas would be destroyed." It only takes a minority of AY to be incredibly destructive to the Asari. This is the Asari Republic's version of playing it safe. If they really wanted to play it safe they would kill every AY but obviously that is immoral so the Asari does the next best thing they can do.

HEY you brought THAT up, good. Because I am SO with Anders on that one. 

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...
Running isn't freedom. How many more time? 

She became a monster because she was ALREDY treated like one.

She was treated like a very very very dangerous person. Dangerous Person =/=Monster