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[AlexXIV]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

I'm thinking this thread should be merged with the other one in the character section considering the thread starter actually posted in that thread before starting this one. Also the thread title resembles a call to action for those who feel Morinth is some unconscionable wretch.

Anyway, there's no telling what Morinth's motives are because they weren't fleshed out. You can think that she's as evil as anything, but that doesn't make it so. She can easily go full on satan or she can be a person who hates her condition, but does what she does to survive.

Here's the thread.

How's killing Shepard on the Normandy doing what she has to do to survive? It's probalby the most stupid thing anyone has done so far. Including Udina and the turian council member.

Shepard has to give consent in order for the meld to take place.  Unless you want to change things up and say that Morinth forces herself onto people.  She could also be entirely truthful that she believes Shepard can survive.

Morinth does force herself on people.  She seeks them out, lies to them, manipulates them, brings them under her sway, and then consumes them. 

Shep might be the one of the rare people who actually has to consent, and any player who actually did have their Shep consent was a fool for not knowing exactly what would happen when they did. 

Well I was foolish enough to try in one playthrough. But basically because I was curious. Anyway it was the first and last time. My point was that it was foolish of her anyway, pretty stupid. Shep is probably the one person who can stop the Reapers or at least play a vital role in stopping them, and she kills him/her. That was my point, world's going to hell because she is the 'dumbest ass of the galaxy'™.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 septembre 2011 - 09:47 .

[didymos1120]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...


Remember that time she said she still gets warm fuzzy feelings when she kills? Oh wait that was Jack.

Oh wait, no it wasn't:

"I still get warm feelings during a fight."

Fight =/= Kill. And if you pay attention to the rest of the dialogue there, she was being rewarded (in the sense of psychological condititioning) for displaying aggression, not for killing.  She never killed anyone until she escaped, as she'll tell you when you look at her old room, and which was well after those forced fights.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 septembre 2011 - 10:14 .

[didymos1120]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Apparently Samara is okay with blowing up the Batarian system because there, afterall, were a lot of what she would call "bad people" on that planet.

Yeah, no such dialogue exists. 

[1136342t54_]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...


Remember that time she said she still gets warm fuzzy feelings when she kills? Oh wait that was Jack.

Oh wait, no it wasn't:

"I still get warm feelings during a fight."

Fight =/= Kill. And if you pay attention to the rest of the dialogue there, she was being rewarded (in the sense of psychological condititioning) for displaying aggression, not for killing.  She never killed anyone until she escaped, as she'll tell you when you look at her old room, and which was well after those forced fights.

Not disagreeing with you with the whole Fight =/= Kill but remember when Shepard asked did anyone die in these fights? Jack wasn't even entirely sure. She was a kid loaded with drugs and was punished when she didn't necessarily fight hard enough. Kids could have died and the scientists readily sacrificed children in experiments for Jack. Maybe the fights were another experiment.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Wall of text warning....

[quote]1136342t54 wrote...

[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well lookie here. We've got one mass murderer, Jack.
[/quote] Not necesssarily unreasonable. Hell it was implied she was forced to kill during the early days of her life.[/quote]

But she enjoyed it and gets warm fuzzies thinking about some of her deeds.[quote]

[quote]Another mass murderer, Shepard, whose total is in the hundreds of thousands.[/quote]
Wouldn't necessarily compare Shepard to morinth on that level. Whenever Shepard commits mass murder or even just killing people. Its largely in self defense or in defense of the galaxy.[/quote]

The "Yes, but they were all bad" defense. Still Shepard's name will live in infamy for centuries among Batarians as "The Butcher of (whatever planet that was)". Sacrificing hundreds of thousands to POSSIBLY save trillions is still a crime against sentient life. It still doesn't change the facts of the case, or make it right.

But Shepard is not like Morinth. Morinth is a serial killer. Shepard is a mass murderer. There is a difference.[quote]

[quote]A ritualistic serial killer (assassin), Thane.[/quote]
That is inaccurate and you know it. Thane was trained by the Hanar since he was 8 years old. You could say he was a state assassin to be far more accurate.
[/quote]
But still an assassin and killer who knows he is doing wrong, hence he prays to his gods for absolution after an execution. That makes it all right.

Wrex is atoning for his wrongs.[quote]

[quote]Liara who has maybe not gotten her own hands as dirty, but as an information broker has probably ordered a number of hits on dead-beat clients, and who is possibly Shepard's LI.[/quote] Thats a maybe and all we heard her do was make a threat. [/quote]

True and for that threat to have any weight behind it, she would have had  follow through several times.

[quote]Joker and EDI are the only sane ones on the ship. 
[/quote]
Not necessarily. Joker and EDI are responsible for the death of many many Collectors. I'm sure because they murdered someone they are insane killers. [/quote]

Collectors. Not even close to Prothean anymore. No culture. No soul, as Mordin said. Tools for reapers. Worse than husks. I do like Mordin. I indirectly quote him enough.

[quote]
Apparently Samara is okay with blowing up the Batarian system because there, afterall, were a lot of what she would call "bad people" on that planet.
[/quote]
Never heard Samara okay that.[/quote]

True but there was a lot of dialogue left unfinished with Arrival being DLC rather than part of the main game. I did hear her say when she was talking about persuing Nihlus that if any of the villagers were to have aided him she would have killed them all without hesitation.

[quote]
Both of them are monsters. You can count the non-monsters on your team on one hand: Kasumi, and Jacob. Otherwise, you basically have your classic mass murderers, and your serial killers, and Shepard is one of them.
[/quote]
[quote]
Depends on your definition of monster. Is Shepard a monster for sacrificing 300,000 batarians for the lives of trillions? Would Garrus be a monster for trying to save the innocents of Omega? Would Mordin be a monster for wanting to stop the Krogan from getting out of control leading to their own distruction? There are a few actual monsters on your team but I would classify very few in that light. Zaeed is as morally grey as you can get most of the time. Jack turned into an animal that is distrustful of everyone but can help her become something else. Morinth? You can't change her at all or stop her from killing. Its not really even her fault its just horrible luck but when she killed her first victim her condition kicked in and turned her into a monster sadly.
[/quote]

Zaeed was willing to sacrifice a refinery full of workers to get vengeance. No argument about Jack. Garrus? That's a morally grey area. He forgot one thing... there is no good side to Omega. Mordin. or most likely his successors, will need what was being done to cure the genophage to modify to replenish the Krogan after the Reaper war.

Morinth? Like I said. A classic serial killer. Same with any of them. Their psychological defects were hard wired at birth. The only reason to even take Morinth would be to unlock Domination. I am curious about if that has any impact in ME3. If the effects are too negative I'll trash that playthrough. And like Samara mentioned, Morinth is a genetic dead end since she is sterile. 

Arrival is why Shepard must sacrifice him or herself at the end of ME3.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 26 septembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Xeranx]

didymos1120 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LoL.

We know exactly why she does what she does, she gets off on it. She murder people for the thrill, the rush of power, the joy of killing another thinking being. End of story.

Samara claims the same.

It's not a "claim".  Why don't you go listen to what Morinth says when you examine the objects in her apartment?  Or, hell, just pay a modicum of attention to her conversation there and in the VIP lounge.  It's made ridiculously plain what her game is.

You can save yourself the aggravation and follow your own advice to my post.  Or ask for clarification.

[1136342t54_]

[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But she enjoyed it and gets warm fuzzies thinking about some of her deeds.[/quote]
WTF? She implicitly implies because she was drugged. Don't ignore that part. The reason why it isn't entirely unreasonable for her is because she has been brought up to be like that. The simple fact is she can change and become more trusting of people and at least become less of a psychopath.

[quote]
The "Yes, but they were all bad" defense.[/quote] Considering that its true makes it correct.

[quote] Still Shepard's name will live in infamy for centuries among Batarians as "The Butcher of (whatever planet that was)". Sacrificing hundreds of thousands to POSSIBLY save trillions is still a crime against sentient life. It still doesn't change the facts of the case, or make it right.[/quote] How is it POSSIBLY? The Reapers were going to arrive in a Galaxy nearly totally unprepared for a Galactic war. He gave the Galaxy valuable time to prepare. Seriously Shepard made the right decision period with the resources he had available. It would retarded and irresponsible for Shepard to not sacrfice the Batarians.


[quote]But Shepard is not like Morinth. Morinth is a serial killer. Shepard is a mass murderer. There is a difference.[quote]
It is quite possible Morinth is responsible for thousands of deaths. 

[quote]
But still an assassin and killer who knows he is doing wrong, hence he prays to his gods for absolution after an execution. That makes it all right.
[/quote]
He seems to have been praying to his gods after he quite working for the Hanar and getting revenge for his wife's death. He is praying to his gods likely because of what he did to those men in revenge and going to far. Did I say it was right? No? Then don't assume that. You claimed he was a ritualistic killer and you were clearly wrong.
[quote]
Wrex is atoning for his wrongs.[quote]
Wrex is atoning for his species wrongs.

[quote]
True and for that threat to have any weight behind it, she would have had  follow through several times.
[/quote]
She fought with Commander Shepard and help stopped a galactic threat. That is all the weight you really need.

[quote]
Collectors. Not even close to Prothean anymore. No culture. No soul, as Mordin said. Tools for reapers. Worse than husks. I do like Mordin. I indirectly quote him enough.
[/quote]
Actually he said worse than Geth. They are still alive and they are responsible for killing them. Killing is wrong no matter what it is for. That is what I was getting from your basic argument.

[quote]
True but there was a lot of dialogue left unfinished with Arrival being DLC rather than part of the main game. I did hear her say when she was talking about persuing Nihlus that if any of the villagers were to have aided him she would have killed them all without hesitation.
[/quote]
Wrong again. She let Nihlus go to save a villager.

[quote]
Zaeed was willing to sacrifice a refinery full of workers to get vengeance.[/quote]
Yep so? Never said he was a good guy. During that time I would call him a monster but in general he just seems morally grey.

[quote]
No argument about Jack. Garrus? That's a morally grey area. He forgot one thing... there is no good side to Omega.
[/quote]
That makes what he was trying to do wrong or monstrous? Aria's reasoning can be applied to the Galaxy but people still try to do good. Garrus is trying to bring some good to Omega simply because the innocents there are suffering.
[quote]Mordin. or most likely his successors, will need what was being done to cure the genophage to modify to replenish the Krogan after the Reaper war. [/quote]Yep another war. Mordin was initially trying to prevent using them for war in the first place.


[quote]Morinth? Like I said. A classic serial killer. Same with any of them. Their psychological defects were hard wired at birth. The only reason to even take Morinth would be to unlock Domination. I am curious about if that has any impact in ME3. If the effects are too negative I'll trash that playthrough. And like Samara mentioned, Morinth is a genetic dead end since she is sterile. [/quote] Morinth is beyond classic Serial killer in the simplest explanation. There is a lot of argument whether people are genetically predisposed to kill. For Morinth there is no argument. Her genes and abilities make her the perfect predator hard wired to kill and drain people. It isn't fair for her but that makes her more of a monster than others.
 
[quote]
Arrival is why Shepard must sacrifice him or herself at the end of ME3.
[/quote]

Really a little fatalistic aren't we? I won't punish Shepard for doing that. Shepard with a conscious would have already punished his or herself for that action but Shepard would never sacrifice his or herself unless its absolutely necessary and Shep needs to save others. 

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 26 septembre 2011 - 11:29 .

[didymos1120]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

True but there was a lot of dialogue left unfinished with Arrival being DLC rather than part of the main game.

There is no dialogue whatsoever from Samara in the Arrival files.  Your claim that she "okayed" it is entirely without basis. 

I did hear her say when she was talking about p[u]rsuing Nihlus that if any of the villagers were to have aided him she would have killed them all without hesitation.

No, you did not hear her say that:

A turian named Nihlus. He may have been on Council business, but I witnessed him kill an unarmed civilian. Following the Code, I attacked.

Then she explains how he escaped her:

Finally, he created a situation in which my only options were to let an innocent die, or pursue him. The Code compelled me to save the innocent, and he escaped. I admire how he adapted and used my code against me.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 septembre 2011 - 11:28 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Arrival is why Shepard must sacrifice him or herself at the end of ME3.

No. 

If the Reapers come through the "alpha relay", every Batarian in that system is dead, and the Reapers have the "alpha relay".

If the "alpha relay" is destroyed, every Batarian in that system is dead, and the Reapers don't have the "alpha relay".  

Shepard even has the option of trying to warn the Batarians instead of calling the Normandy for pickup, but Kenson cuts off the comm channel.  

But no matter what, every Batarian in that system is dead.   At least with the "alpha relay" destroyed, there's a better chance that trillions of others won't also be wiped out. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

AlexXIV wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

I'm thinking this thread should be merged with the other one in the character section considering the thread starter actually posted in that thread before starting this one. Also the thread title resembles a call to action for those who feel Morinth is some unconscionable wretch.

Anyway, there's no telling what Morinth's motives are because they weren't fleshed out. You can think that she's as evil as anything, but that doesn't make it so. She can easily go full on satan or she can be a person who hates her condition, but does what she does to survive.

Here's the thread.

How's killing Shepard on the Normandy doing what she has to do to survive? It's probalby the most stupid thing anyone has done so far. Including Udina and the turian council member.

Shepard has to give consent in order for the meld to take place.  Unless you want to change things up and say that Morinth forces herself onto people.  She could also be entirely truthful that she believes Shepard can survive.

Morinth does force herself on people.  She seeks them out, lies to them, manipulates them, brings them under her sway, and then consumes them. 

Shep might be the one of the rare people who actually has to consent, and any player who actually did have their Shep consent was a fool for not knowing exactly what would happen when they did. 

Well I was foolish enough to try in one playthrough. But basically because I was curious. Anyway it was the first and last time. My point was that it was foolish of her anyway, pretty stupid. Shep is probably the one person who can stop the Reapers or at least play a vital role in stopping them, and she kills him/her. That was my point, world's going to hell because she is the 'dumbest ass of the galaxy'™.

That alone tells us just how far gone, how pathetic, how monsterous, Morinth has become.  She knows exactly what's at stake, and given the chance, kills Shepard anyway. 

[Bitework]

 You can end up paying for that choice in me2. I personally haven't picked morinth since I always get a great sense of satisfaction when samara nuts up and fixes that genetic abormality with a right good facesmash. 

[D.Kain]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I was foolish enough to try in one playthrough. But basically because I was curious. Anyway it was the first and last time. My point was that it was foolish of her anyway, pretty stupid. Shep is probably the one person who can stop the Reapers or at least play a vital role in stopping them, and she kills him/her. That was my point, world's going to hell because she is the 'dumbest ass of the galaxy'™.

That's because she thought Shepard would survive... And she asks Shepard if he agrees.

Modifié par D.Kain, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[AnAccountWithNoName]

I think it is quite retarded that people are ACTUALLY defending the MONSTER, and comparing her to Shepard.

There is a difference. Shepard does not murder (paragon Shepard at least). You might say.....wait....how can he not murder....if he kills? Well all murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. There is a certain definition for Murder.

I think the reason why so many are sympathizing with Morinth is because she is FICTIONAL. If you people REALLY met a real monster, im sure you wouldn't sympathies with him.

Ex: You meet a man who had a tragic backstory, its sad, but that doesn't excuse his actions in the present. This man enjoys killing, he does it just because he can. He also LOVES raping women, and then killing them. He has no regard/importance for human life (except himself), he see's the importance of humans to that of animals. He doesn't even kill for money. He has no moral code. He can even kill children with no remorse. Now would you sympathies with this monster? No im sure you wouldn't. Nor would you trust him either.

So why does Morinth get a pass then? She is a predator, and she deserves to be put down/brought to justice.

The more and more i see posts in defending Morinth, the more i lose faith in mankind. Especially those posts in comparing Morinth to Shepard. I can't believe some people don't see the difference.

Modifié par AnAccountWithNoName, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[Medhia Nox]

Which just makes her stupid as well as psychotic... she's eaten how many people? And she thinks Shepard is some magical juice box that will never run out?

Either Morinth can break the 4th Wall and knows that Bioware has painted "main character" on his back... or, she's as dumb as a lobotomized pyjak ... (or, she's lying to you - but, she seemed so honest before... you know, with the heavy handed artist girl she eats)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

That's because she thought Shepard would survive... And she asks Shepard if he agrees.

Seriously doubt she was 100% on that. It is very possible she was lying or just plain stupid.

[D.Kain]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...

I think it is quite retarded that people are ACTUALLY defending the MONSTER, and comparing her to Shepard.

There is a difference. Shepard does not murder (paragon Shepard at least). You might say.....wait....how can he not murder....if he kills? Well all murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. There is a certain definition for Murder.

I think the reason why so many are sympathizing with Morinth is because she is FICTIONAL. If you people REALLY met a real monster, im sure you wouldn't sympathies with him.

Ex: You meet a man who had a tragic backstory, its sad, but that doesn't excuse his actions in the present. This man enjoys killing, he does it just because he can. He also LOVES raping women, and then killing them. He has no regard/importance for human life (except himself), he see's the importance of humans to that of animals. He doesn't even kill for money. He has no moral code. He can even kill children with no remorse. Now would you sympathies with this monster? No im sure you wouldn't. Nor would you trust him either.

So why does Morinth get a pass then? She is a predator, and she deserves to be put down/brought to justice.

The more and more i see posts in defending Morinth, the more i lose faith in mankind. Especially those posts in comparing Morinth to Shepard. I can't believe some people don't see the difference.

Where the hell do you get these ideas?? I don't even know what to say anymore. People just can't tell a fact from speculation. 

Everybody also have different Shepards, just so you know. 

I say Morinth kills people to survive, and you can't prove me wrong, because we don't have enough information. It also happens that I can't prove you wrong, but I express my opinions to people who care what I have to say and why I think this choice is ok and not to push my opinion on other people. 

Real life is a bad example because I am not faced with combat for survival everyday. If I were to live in the middle ages, my answer would probably be more clear. But tell you what. Friendship is not about people involved in it being good people. Friendship is about mutual respect, help, trust and  interests. If I my friend killed people for plesure I would do something to stop him, but if he killed people out of survival or pressing matters in life I would support him. 

[D.Kain]

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

That's because she thought Shepard would survive... And she asks Shepard if he agrees.

Seriously doubt she was 100% on that. It is very possible she was lying or just plain stupid.

Well you said it yourself - stupid. 

Morinth could have killed/tortured/raped Shepard back at her appartment after Samara was dead. She had her chance. 

Morinth doesn't strike me as stupid, only as bold. So basically that's her screwup. She didn't want to kill Shepard.

[Medhia Nox]

@D.Kain - the problem I have with your philosophy, is the ease in which people can convince themselves that they need to kill for "survival" or "pressing matters".

[D.Kain]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@D.Kain - the problem I have with your philosophy, is the ease in which people can convince themselves that they need to kill for "survival" or "pressing matters".

I see that Morinth is doing it for survival, I don't know what she think about it, I am looking at her from my point of view, I'm not convincing myself.

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

Well you said it yourself - stupid. 

Morinth could have killed/tortured/raped Shepard back at her appartment after Samara was dead. She had her chance. 

Morinth doesn't strike me as stupid, only as bold. So basically that's her screwup. She didn't want to kill Shepard.

Morinth knew what she was doing and wanted to kill Shepard. She doesn't strike me as stupid either.

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

I see that Morinth is doing it for survival, I don't know what she think about it, I am looking at her from my point of view, I'm not convincing myself.

Its not survival at all. She doesn't have to do it for any survival purposes. Morinth does it because it is a very very very very addictive act. It is possible Morinth could abstain but it would never last.

[D.Kain]

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Well you said it yourself - stupid. 

Morinth could have killed/tortured/raped Shepard back at her appartment after Samara was dead. She had her chance. 

Morinth doesn't strike me as stupid, only as bold. So basically that's her screwup. She didn't want to kill Shepard.

Morinth knew what she was doing and wanted to kill Shepard. She doesn't strike me as stupid either.

  

I don't know what Paradox-Morinth you are talking about then. Killing Shep on the ship = stupid. 

[D.Kain]

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I see that Morinth is doing it for survival, I don't know what she think about it, I am looking at her from my point of view, I'm not convincing myself.

Its not survival at all. She doesn't have to do it for any survival purposes. Morinth does it because it is a very very very very addictive act. It is possible Morinth could abstain but it would never last.

Yes she does have to do that for survival purposes. 

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I see that Morinth is doing it for survival, I don't know what she think about it, I am looking at her from my point of view, I'm not convincing myself.

Prove it.

Its not survival at all. She doesn't have to do it for any survival purposes. Morinth does it because it is a very very very very addictive act. It is possible Morinth could abstain but it would never last.

Yes she does have to do that for survival purposes. 

Prove it.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 27 septembre 2011 - 03:57 .

[1136342t54_]

D.Kain wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Well you said it yourself - stupid. 

Morinth could have killed/tortured/raped Shepard back at her appartment after Samara was dead. She had her chance. 

Morinth doesn't strike me as stupid, only as bold. So basically that's her screwup. She didn't want to kill Shepard.

Morinth knew what she was doing and wanted to kill Shepard. She doesn't strike me as stupid either.

  

I don't know what Paradox-Morinth you are talking about then. Killing Shep on the ship = stupid. 

Morinth likely felt confident she could escape. Seriously it isn't like she didn't know she could kill Shepard.