196 réponses à ce sujet

[Sgt Stryker]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

I'm interested in why Sovereign said they had no beginning. Was he ignorant or bluffing?

I've carefully analyzed all the hints and dialogue bits and have come to the conclusion that Sov was just an arrogant ******.

Maybe it recognized the value of using psychological intimidation against a species that was susceptible to psychological intimidation?

[Jonathan Shepard]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Great find, cheers for posting. The fact that a Reaper is made of billions of minds implies that they literally upload the entire species, or as much of it as they can. I assumed they'd only use a few million, but they take a massive amount of the species - sort of preserving them in a Reaper shell. I'm now very excited to find out more about them in ME3.

I really think Bioware should've gone with the original plan of having Legion stalk you throughout ME2 and have him recruitable earlier so we get more time to speak to him - he's such an interesting character but we get very little time with him, missing potentially important dialogue like this.

Agreed. Legion stalking Shepard and having the heretic to non-heretic Geth be more like 50/50 and having the heretics work with the Collectors would've been great. Legion should've been like a Loghain, in terms of how much the player could see/hear/interact with him.

[AdmiralCheez]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Maybe it recognized the value of using psychological intimidation against a species that was susceptible to psychological intimidation?

Nope.

Just a pompus dickweed that thought he was tough sh*t.

(Joking.)

[Sgt Stryker]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Maybe it recognized the value of using psychological intimidation against a species that was susceptible to psychological intimidation?

Nope.

Just a pompus dickweed that thought he was tough sh*t.

(Joking.)

It, not he. Sovereign is a thing, not a person.

[AdmiralCheez]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

It, not he. Sovereign is a thing, not a person.

A dead thing.

[111987]

This actually does clarify most all of what Sovereign was talking about.

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh." Sovereign is disparaging the weakness and mortality of the flesh, not necessarily everything about organics.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension." An organic with a single, isolated mind could not possibly comprehend the experience of being joined with billions of other minds, unified into one consciousness.

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation,
independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of
our existence." Same as above, organics can't comprehend being a part of a collective mind of billions.

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation...an accident. Your lives are measured in years, and decades. You wither, and die. We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence." We can see here that Sovereign is placing a great emphasis on the mortality of organics, and how the Reapers are so much better, in large part because they are immortal. As Legion says, the Reapers are organic minds that house themselves in immortal machine bodies.

The only thing still not clear about what Sovereign said are their origins, but we'll probably find that out in Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par 111987, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[didymos1120]

111987 wrote...

The only thing still not clear about what Sovereign said are their origins, but we'll probably find that out in Mass Effect 3.

Unless the Reapers are just flat-out supernatural, there's no way that "we have no beginning" claim could be true.  Even if you go with really far-out possibilities like them being refugees from an earlier iteration of the universe, all you've done is push that beginning back to an earlier point.  The infinite regress has to stop somewhere. 

[111987]

didymos1120 wrote...

111987 wrote...

The only thing still not clear about what Sovereign said are their origins, but we'll probably find that out in Mass Effect 3.

Unless the Reapers are just flat-out supernatural, there's no way that "we have no beginning" claim could be true.  Even if you go with really far-out possibilities like them being refugees from an earlier iteration of the universe, all you've done is push that beginning back to an earlier point.  The infinite regress has to stop somewhere. 

Mhmm, that definitley wasn't true. I was just trying to explain the rest of Sovereign's speech in terms of the information your video has revealed. Sovereign was probably just trying to sound impressive, or perhaps simply doesn't know. After all unless Sovereign was the first Reaper, it wouldn't know when the first Reaper was made as the Reapers are not joined together in some sort of hivemind.

[Illusive]

I wonder why Sovereign would say that organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident, if the Reapers themselves were originally organic.

[111987]

Kings19 wrote...

I wonder why Sovereign would say that organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident, if the Reapers themselves were originally organic.

Possibly Sovereign is saying that with organic life, there are no guarantees; it is only through chance that life even came about. By becoming an immortal Reaper though, things change.

[100k]

Nyoka wrote...

100k wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

It might have been cool if we had had those lines being delivered to us while on the derelict reaper instead of uhhhhhhhoooooooooohhhhhh. You know, stereo or 5.1, little whispering voices coming from all directions? More than enough to make the research team go insane. You can run some lines backwards for extra-weirdness.

While I would absolutely love that, I know that the developers won't do that. The "poem" is too long for *waves angry fist at the sky* casual players.

We're agreeing too much lately. Say something sexist so we can have an angry fight.

I'm not sexist. I just want femShep to have a woman do her motion capture...because femShep is a woman.

Besides, if this is the only reason we apparently loath each other, then we are pathetic.

Modifié par 100k, 27 septembre 2011 - 04:11 .

[przemichal]

111987 wrote...
The only thing still not clear about what Sovereign said are their origins, but we'll probably find that out in Mass Effect 3.

Now more than ever I think that my theory -- that the Reapers' started with indoctrination -- may prove to be true. Especially some of the recordings on the derelict Reaper may back up this theory. Judging from them, indoctrination is somehow connected to all this consciousness unity. (Cerberus' scientists can share their thoughts etc.)

Maybe the indoctrination's original goal was not really to be a weapon (nor create a Reaper), but to be something else, something like thought-sharing process, and then it turned that way?

Thinking of it, it would fit really well as some kind of "great revelation". Yeah: just like that Citadel being a relay thing from ME1, don't you think?

Modifié par przemichal, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:42 .

[Ygolnac]

Pride Demon wrote...

-- Have we misjudged Harbinger and the Reapers so much? Many say that since the Reapers seen themselves as superior it should avoid taunting Shepard so much, maybe it merely employs psychological warfare or maybe it actually cares about what Shepard thinks: maybe it sees itself as some sort of hard-loving father-figure offering a great gift to a herd that needs guidance and Shepard is seen as a foolish inexperienced child who just likes being difficult, its insults tend to be quite patronizing after all (its stance in Arrival also made me think of a scolding father)...
Maybe it genuinely can't understand why anyone would not want to be a Reaper... Maybe...

This one is indoctrinated!!! Open fire!!!!

[didymos1120]

Kings19 wrote...

I wonder why Sovereign would say that organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident, if the Reapers themselves were originally organic.

Because it's essentially the truth?  Especially if you favor "replicator first" theories of abiogenesis, in which case life as we think of it literally began because of genetic mutation.

[Wulfram]

didymos1120 wrote...

Unless the Reapers are just flat-out supernatural, there's no way that "we have no beginning" claim could be true.  Even if you go with really far-out possibilities like them being refugees from an earlier iteration of the universe, all you've done is push that beginning back to an earlier point.  The infinite regress has to stop somewhere. 

They could have gone back in time and created themselves.

[Lotion Soronarr]

didymos1120 wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Oh, and how would you.."upload" Minds from the genetic material of a species?

Keep in mind, the "genetic paste" thing came from Chakwas....who was trapped in a pod at the time and watching other people get gooified.  There's basically zero chance she knew what was actually going on with the process.  She even admits as much when Shep asks why they'd do that.

And it still makes no damn sense....

[Anacronian Stryx]

didymos1120 wrote...

111987 wrote...

The only thing still not clear about what Sovereign said are their origins, but we'll probably find that out in Mass Effect 3.

Unless the Reapers are just flat-out supernatural, there's no way that "we have no beginning" claim could be true.  Even if you go with really far-out possibilities like them being refugees from an earlier iteration of the universe, all you've done is push that beginning back to an earlier point.  The infinite regress has to stop somewhere. 

Sure if the "we have no beginning we have no end ..we simply are" is a purely timeline reference then it wouldn't make any sense, But if (as this thread suggests) Sovereign is literary made up of millions of memories of millions of creatures then where does Sovereign(the entity it self) begin or end?

It would be kind of like asking "where do you start..which braincells makes you..you?"


I guess it could work from some perspective.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 27 septembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[Pride Demon]

Kings19 wrote...

I wonder why Sovereign would say that organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident, if the Reapers themselves were originally organic.

Didymos basically aswered to this, it may also relate to the "we are shepherds" thing: after Sovereign says "by using [our technology] you develop along the paths we desire" and "We impose order to the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it."

It may be he is vilifying the chaotic and unenlightened (from its perspective) way organic life advances and showing how they correctly and carefully steer and guide "the herd" to their full potential and (eventually) trascendence ("Your salvation through destruction" and all that jazz), even Harbinger constantly spouts "You are ignorant, we are knowing"...

So it may simply a blunt way of saying "Organics are too unpredictable and prone to mistakes, so we show them the right way to their full potential because we know better, once they have reached the "apex" of their evolution (or at least what the Reapers feel is their "apex"), we'll show the most worthy the next step (which is reaperification), so that their glory can exist forever within our perfect undying machine bodies, instead of crumbling away under the wheel of time..."

They may also simply have reasons we are unaware of, we'll see when ME3 comes out... XD

Ygolnac wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

-- Have we misjudged Harbinger and the
Reapers so much? Many say that since the Reapers seen themselves as
superior it should avoid taunting Shepard so much, maybe it merely
employs psychological warfare or maybe it actually cares about what
Shepard thinks: maybe it sees itself as some sort of hard-loving
father-figure offering a great gift to a herd that needs guidance and
Shepard is seen as a foolish inexperienced child who just likes being
difficult, its insults tend to be quite patronizing after all (its
stance in Arrival also made me think of a scolding father)...
Maybe it genuinely can't understand why anyone would not want to be a Reaper... Maybe...

This one is indoctrinated!!! Open fire!!!!

Ahahahah!

But seriously, there's a chance (however slim) that Harbinger really sees itself and its kind like that...
Maybe deep down it's even proud of Shepard exploits; after all if the Reapers really think of themselves as the ones that guide organics to their destinies they are basically indirectly responsible for everything organics achieve (in their eyes at least), they basically think they forged a creature that is capable of somehow competing with them, at least on the small scale... That's definitely food for their egos...

Or maybe I'm just overthinking things, like always... XD

[Almostfaceman]

100k wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

It might have been cool if we had had those lines being delivered to us while on the derelict reaper instead of uhhhhhhhoooooooooohhhhhh. You know, stereo or 5.1, little whispering voices coming from all directions? More than enough to make the research team go insane. You can run some lines backwards for extra-weirdness.

While I would absolutely love that, I know that the developers won't do that. The "poem" is too long for *waves angry fist at the sky* casual players.

Well that's one thing, the other thing is that if Shep is hearing whispering all around him like that in a Reaper you're going to have the fanboy's saying he's indoctrinated because that's a sign you're indoctrinated.

So while it would be cool yeah they have to be careful about that.

[Bluko]

Good find as usual didy.

Very interesting and this gives me some hope ME3 won't simply be Metal Gear Solid's "Teh nanomachines!" or Assassin's Creed "DNA holds all your Grandpa's dirty thoughts!" Essentially the plot with the Reapers won't seem entirely cliche.

Frankly I always assumed since ME1 that Reaper's collected our intelligence via indoctrination. I also thought this was why Husks existed in the first place since they are a pretty sucky excuse for ground troops. I figured they were called "Husks" because they had their intelligence stripped from them leaving their bodies as mindless zombies more or less.

Most of my problems with the Human Reaper comes from the idea that's it made up of melted humans. I can understand Reapers salvaging raw materials from our bodies to be efficient, but the idea and impression ME2 gives that Reapers are made purely from orange glowing human goo is a bit silly. Also to me having my mind stolen is a much scarier prospect then my body getting blended into a smoothie.

Hopefully Legion's little tidbit here turns out to have merit in ME3 and isn't merely one of those dialogue oversights that is forgotten about as the game's story is tinkered around with.

[HBC Dresden]

Cool that Legion says this in the game in some of the best nutshelling I've seen. However, I don't get people's reactions. I'm not trolling or acting pompous or anything, but am I some of the few that figured out the ramifications of what Legion said on my own by using the information we naturally get at the end of the game along with all the other hints from Sovereign/Harbinger/Collectors? Legion's dialogue doesn't mention anything I didn't ponder earlier even though I never heard it before.

[davidt0504]

I hope then that one of the options at the end actually allows you to "betray" humanity to upload them to a reaper.