196 réponses à ce sujet

[Thompson family]

Kings19 wrote...

I wonder why Sovereign would say that organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident, if the Reapers themselves were originally organic.

"Prepare this humans for ascension," as Harbinger would say. Soveriegn himself says that Reapers "impose order on the chaos" of organic life, although it was talking about Mass Relays at the time. Reapers see themselves as perfection, the "pinnable of evolution," creatures who impose their will upon life itself.

They have issues.

[Thompson family]

HBC Dresden wrote...

Cool that Legion says this in the game in some of the best nutshelling I've seen. However, I don't get people's reactions. I'm not trolling or acting pompous or anything, but am I some of the few that figured out the ramifications of what Legion said on my own by using the information we naturally get at the end of the game along with all the other hints from Sovereign/Harbinger/Collectors? Legion's dialogue doesn't mention anything I didn't ponder earlier even though I never heard it before.

But it confirms it, and really leaves no room for argument. That's the value of this video. It addresses a real need, for it is clear that many players simply don't listen to Legion's dialouge fully. How many times has one of us had to explain what a Dyson Sphere is?

[Labrev]

I never got that before but its nothing new or anything you don't learn in the SM. That Reapers are a organic-synthetic cross-species we already know, and we saw how the Humareaper was being built.

Then I reject the idea about all minds being conjoined like a geth superstructure. Even if Legion did touch Sovereign's mind, he admits he didn't understand it then. What we learned in the SM doesn't explain how that is even possible.

[Lisa_H]

Pride Demon wrote...

It was lonely. It called to us.
It wanted to remember. The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.
We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.
Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.
They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.
Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.
Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.
Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

was meant to be the melted colonists/crew "speaking" to Shepard through the Human Reaper larva...

Where does this come from? It was really creepy, but I like that it add a new depth to the reapers

[HBC Dresden]

Thompson family wrote...

HBC Dresden wrote...

Cool that Legion says this in the game in some of the best nutshelling I've seen. However, I don't get people's reactions. I'm not trolling or acting pompous or anything, but am I some of the few that figured out the ramifications of what Legion said on my own by using the information we naturally get at the end of the game along with all the other hints from Sovereign/Harbinger/Collectors? Legion's dialogue doesn't mention anything I didn't ponder earlier even though I never heard it before.

But it confirms it, and really leaves no room for argument. That's the value of this video. It addresses a real need, for it is clear that many players simply don't listen to Legion's dialouge fully. How many times has one of us had to explain what a Dyson Sphere is?

Ok, I can understand that. It was just my surprise to the wording of people's responses, like it was a new plot development or something.

[Medhia Nox]

Thompson family wrote...

Kings19 wrote...

I wonder why Sovereign would say that organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident, if the Reapers themselves were originally organic.

"Prepare this humans for ascension," as Harbinger would say. Soveriegn himself says that Reapers "impose order on the chaos" of organic life, although it was talking about Mass Relays at the time. Reapers see themselves as perfection, the "pinnable of evolution," creatures who impose their will upon life itself.

They have issues.

May I introduce you to the human race? 

[armass]

Even if reapers represent themselves as this ultimate evolutionary state, they are not well meaning beings. They don't give us any choice of the matter and they apparently murder or turn into mindless tools all the others they do not consider worthy of becoming reapers.  They are monsters.

Modifié par armass, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:18 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

I'm interested in why Sovereign said they had no beginning. Was he ignorant or bluffing?

I've carefully analyzed all the hints and dialogue bits and have come to the conclusion that Sov was just an arrogant ******.

Sov and Harby both love to hear the sounds of their own voice too much. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

After reading through this thread and others, I have to ask. Why the hell is it that there are always people who seem compelled to make sympathetic figures out of monsters and villains?

"Oh, the reapers are saving us! You don't understand, they're the good guys!"

No. The Reapers are monsters and villains, that's it, end of story. The only reason to even care about their past and motives is to learn how to erradicate them completely.

[Thompson family]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

After reading through this thread and others, I have to ask. Why the hell is it that there are always people who seem compelled to make sympathetic figures out of monsters and villains?

"Oh, the reapers are saving us! You don't understand, they're the good guys!"

No. The Reapers are monsters and villains, that's it, end of story. The only reason to even care about their past and motives is to learn how to erradicate them completely.

I can't let an opportunity to agree with Killjoy Cutter pass me by.

I agree.

[lltoon]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

After reading through this thread and others, I have to ask. Why the hell is it that there are always people who seem compelled to make sympathetic figures out of monsters and villains?

Because as you grow older as an adult and see more of the world you tend to realize a lot of things, even the most basic things are never in black and white.

A lot of moral choices you make as you get older and a lot of decisions you make depends on the perspective of how you see things. A lot of problems you see in the world have issues that are in shades of grey.
The war in Iraq, Israel vs Palestine, China vs the USA, really, each side sees themselves as the good guys and the other as the bad guys. It has nothing to do with them being evil or bad monsters but it's just that their beliefs are different.

Either way, it's just a deeper form of thinking, and I've applied it to the Mass Effect universe too.

Modifié par lltoon, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:10 .

[ReallyRue]

I thought it was interesting that Legion said each Reaper was a nation.

[Eckswhyzee]

lltoon wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

After reading through this thread and others, I have to ask. Why the hell is it that there are always people who seem compelled to make sympathetic figures out of monsters and villains?

Because as you grow older as an adult and see more of the world you tend to realize a lot of things, even the most basic things are never in black and white.

A lot of moral choices you make as you get older and a lot of decisions you make depends on the perspective of how you see things. A lot of problems you see in the world have issues that are in shades of grey.
The war in Iraq, Israel vs Palestine, China vs the USA, really, each side sees themselves as the good guys and the other as the bad guys. It has nothing to do with them being evil or bad monsters but it's just that their beliefs are different.

Either way, it's just a deeper form of thinking, and I've applied it to the Mass Effect universe too.

Then again, Iraq, Palestine, China or Afghanistan don't have giant sentient spaceships that wish to destroy all organic life

Sometimes people just like to be contrarian. But I really don't get that worked up about it.

[lltoon]

Eckswhyzee wrote...

lltoon wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

After reading through this thread and others, I have to ask. Why the hell is it that there are always people who seem compelled to make sympathetic figures out of monsters and villains?

Because as you grow older as an adult and see more of the world you tend to realize a lot of things, even the most basic things are never in black and white.

A lot of moral choices you make as you get older and a lot of decisions you make depends on the perspective of how you see things. A lot of problems you see in the world have issues that are in shades of grey.
The war in Iraq, Israel vs Palestine, China vs the USA, really, each side sees themselves as the good guys and the other as the bad guys. It has nothing to do with them being evil or bad monsters but it's just that their beliefs are different.

Either way, it's just a deeper form of thinking, and I've applied it to the Mass Effect universe too.

Then again, Iraq, Palestine, China or Afghanistan don't have giant sentient spaceships that wish to destroy all organic life

Sometimes people just like to be contrarian. But I really don't get that worked up about it.

Yeah perhaps. I don't come by the forums as much as I used to so I have to re-train myself to brush off things people say or do that irk me.

[Killjoy Cutter]

lltoon wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

After reading through this thread and others, I have to ask. Why the hell is it that there are always people who seem compelled to make sympathetic figures out of monsters and villains?

Because as you grow older as an adult and see more of the world you tend to realize a lot of things, even the most basic things are never in black and white.

A lot of moral choices you make as you get older and a lot of decisions you make depends on the perspective of how you see things. A lot of problems you see in the world have issues that are in shades of grey.
The war in Iraq, Israel vs Palestine, China vs the USA, really, each side sees themselves as the good guys and the other as the bad guys. It has nothing to do with them being evil or bad monsters but it's just that their beliefs are different.

Either way, it's just a deeper form of thinking, and I've applied it to the Mass Effect universe too.

Sometimes, beliefs can be monsterous and evil.  More importantly, the "purest" of beliefs cannot make some actions any less evil or monsterous.  A certain man with a little mustache believed he was acting with complete moral justification. 

It doesn't matter if the Reapers think they're angels from on high, their actions make them monsters, and evil on an objective, absolute level. 

(PS:  I'm almost 40... I just haven't let postmodernist moral relativism and claptrap about "absolutely all cultures and beliefs being equal" rot my brain.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:58 .

[The Good Hawke]

Doesn't this belong to the ME2 side of the forum?

[DiebytheSword]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

(PS:  I'm almost 40... I just haven't let postmodernist moral relativism and claptrap about "absolutely all cultures and beliefs being equal" rot my brain.)

Here, here! 

I'm 35 myself and often shake my head.

[Medhia Nox]

@Killjoy Cutter: I might agree that all cultures and beliefs are not equal - but, I might suggest that it is an enlightened man that believes all cultures and beliefs should be equally criticized.

Patriotism is often an excuse for ignoring the shortcomings of the homeland (no matter where that homeland may be).

====

Concerning the Reapers -

Armass writes: Even if reapers represent themselves as this ultimate evolutionary state, they are not well meaning beings. They don't give us any choice of the matter and they apparently murder or turn into mindless tools all the others they do not consider worthy of becoming reapers. They are monsters.

Again - am forced to write in this thread. "Welcome to the human race."

====

One of the more notable forum goers - Ieldra I think it is - states that he/she/it believes the Batarians to be a dark mirror of the human race.

I think it is the Reapers.

And - from an outside perspective looking in (let's say, from the perspective of any number of animals on our planet) this description (by Armass) fits too perfectly.

[DiebytheSword]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Killjoy Cutter: I might agree that all cultures and beliefs are not equal - but, I might suggest that it is an enlightened man that believes all cultures and beliefs should be equally criticized.

Patriotism is often an excuse for ignoring the shortcomings of the homeland (no matter where that homeland may be).

====

Concerning the Reapers -

Armass writes: Even if reapers represent themselves as this ultimate evolutionary state, they are not well meaning beings. They don't give us any choice of the matter and they apparently murder or turn into mindless tools all the others they do not consider worthy of becoming reapers. They are monsters.

Again - am forced to write in this thread. "Welcome to the human race."

====

One of the more notable forum goers - Ieldra I think it is - states that he/she/it believes the Batarians to be a dark mirror of the human race.

I think it is the Reapers.

And - from an outside perspective looking in (let's say, from the perspective of any number of animals on our planet) this description (by Armass) fits too perfectly.

Well said and better thought!  I have always questioned everything.  Its part of who I am, to accept another's truth without arriving there myself feels wrong, as if I am submitting rather than understanding.  Anyone can have a sycophant, what we need are people whom we understand, and who understand us.

Interesting thoughts on reapers being dark mirrors of ourselves.  The difference here is obviously sapient life, but some people treat non-sapient life with equal respect to sapient.  I can respect that, even if I disagree to an extent.

I would rather see man as a sapient that must do what he can to survive, going beyond this is unneccesary and cruel.  I have no problems with getting food from an animal raised on a farm.  I have problems with those animals being mistreated though.   They deserve no extra cruelty.  However, no matter which way you slice it, man must consume something that was once living in order to keep on living.  It is the way of life.  Thus I disagree that reapers are our dark mirror.  They are excessively cruel, they kill what they do not cull, they torture what they convert, and they rob a sapient lifeform of free will.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:46 .

[lltoon]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

lltoon wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

After reading through this thread and others, I have to ask. Why the hell is it that there are always people who seem compelled to make sympathetic figures out of monsters and villains?

Because as you grow older as an adult and see more of the world you tend to realize a lot of things, even the most basic things are never in black and white.

A lot of moral choices you make as you get older and a lot of decisions you make depends on the perspective of how you see things. A lot of problems you see in the world have issues that are in shades of grey.
The war in Iraq, Israel vs Palestine, China vs the USA, really, each side sees themselves as the good guys and the other as the bad guys. It has nothing to do with them being evil or bad monsters but it's just that their beliefs are different.

Either way, it's just a deeper form of thinking, and I've applied it to the Mass Effect universe too.

Sometimes, beliefs can be monsterous and evil.  More importantly, the "purest" of beliefs cannot make some actions any less evil or monsterous.  A certain man with a little mustache believed he was acting with complete moral justification. 

It doesn't matter if the Reapers think they're angels from on high, their actions make them monsters, and evil on an objective, absolute level. 

(PS:  I'm almost 40... I just haven't let postmodernist moral relativism and claptrap about "absolutely all cultures and beliefs being equal" rot my brain.)

Point is, good or evil is relative and depends on where you are on that position.

You can easily say humans are evil because they deliberately encroach in Batarian space and deprive their civilization of needed resources to develop.

I don't believe we can claim to be the 'good guys' when we mostly dick about and deprive other beings for our own benefit.

The better term would be we are one of the 'lesser evils' (at least in the perspective of organics), because some of the stuff we do are still inexcusable and heinous (in the Mass Effect universe, and that's already going easy on the human race).

Modifié par lltoon, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:01 .

[JoePilot]

Several people wrote.....
How does melting people down copy their minds.....technobable?

Probably, but I can think of some pretty plausible technobable based on what we already know:
1. The reapers use some sort of quantum technology similar to the illusive man's QEC to communicate from dark space instantly with their implanted avatars (the collectors, Grayson in ME:Retribution, etc...)
2. The reason we know so little about the brain is because it is incredibly complex and in addition to the exact arrangement and configuration of neural connections, the quantum state of electrical impulses in the brain may contribute to our thoughts and personalities.

The "liquification" process may be reaper equivalent of an MRI, the reapers melting down the brain using trillions of nanomachines that record the position and quantum state of every cell in the brain then tranfer that "personality" into the reaper when the resulting orange 'goo' - an amalgam of the nanites and organic waste is pumped into it.  Remember, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indestinguishable from magic". 

[JoePilot]

Also....

Are the reapers evil for doing this? (paraphrased from multiple comments)

The reapers are convinced that their existence is the "pinnacle of evolution".   At one time, they very likely were a very advanced organic race that became reapers either a) to survive an impending disaster, because there was
consensus that they had reached the apex of what they could achieve on their own, and saw this new existence as the next logical step (much more likely, in my opinion), or c) some unknown third option.

Continuing my theory, I think they discovered FTL themselves, and needed huge crafts to construct the mass relays, the reapers may have simply grown out of such a craft.

Look at it this way:

If there were no asari, salarians, etc., just humans, and we had made those discoveries, FTL, mass relays, the whole smash, then spread throughout the entire galaxy, what would come next?  Would we still be driven to expand and discover?  We may try to reach other galaxies, but how would we do that? Or, would we simply seek immortality by uploading our consciousness into one of the great machines we had built?  The relatively slow passage of time, combined with our short lifespan, are the main factors limiting our technological growth as a species.  "If I have seen farther, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" isn't just a quote from Newton, it is a necessary truth for all advancement because no one lives long enough to make discoveries without basing them on those that came before.  Even our most brilliant theoreticians and astrophysicists are crippled by how little they can observe based on the passage of time.

Therefore, to make further discoveries and observations, this hypothetical advanced race may have seen the first reaper as a necessary step toward further advancement of their race.  The reapers may actually be the inevitable, end-all-be-all of organic existence (or at least one form of it), when given enough time and technology.

It is further plausible that given such an existence, in which time means almost nothing, what kind of big-picture problems would such a race face? Given the standard 50k year cycle, there have been 740 cycles since the derelict reaper died 37 million years ago.  Being supposedly vastly advanced machine/organic hybrids with quadrillions of minds in consensus, one must realize they are doing this stuff for a reason (even if it only makes sense to them), and that reason is probably not just to be evil jerks.  Assuming their reason is a serious concern to the long-term survival of sapient life, they would rightly give no more thought to harvesting us to save countless current and future reapers (who are again, each preserved civilizations in themselves) than Sheppard gave to the destruction of the Bahak system in Arrival.  Each thought it was necessary for the greater good. 

tl;dr version: We may be making a mistake in fighting against the reapers.

This is their version of reproduction; gaining a desirable variability within their population by harvesting the most promising species each cycle.  But for what long-term goal?

I really, really, hope we find out.

Modifié par JoePilot, 20 octobre 2011 - 04:49 .

[Each a Nation]

I awake and examine the creche. I find that children have come since my last visit. So many different kinds this cycle will any be suitable? Analysis reveals that the green ones can endure the crucible of ascension. I rejoice and summon my brothers from their deep rest and together we descend. The children always resist they cannot comprehend our meaning their true potential. Their little stings are nothing and soon we have gathered the green ones. I adjourn with my brothers we find the nests of the useless ones and we exterminate them. They cannot understand the eventide has set and room must be made for when the new children come. I return to the green ones and they are compleat. They are now unity cast in a perfect form. Our new brother rises and looks at us we who have destroyed all that he once was all that he once knew. He looks at us and says, “My brothers I thank you."  A most glorious day.

Modifié par Each a Nation, 20 octobre 2011 - 05:11 .

[Each a Nation]

I wonder, when the Reapers “upload” a race to the shell via the paste are the minds retained in an organic form, do they synthesize an AI from each mind or does something else happen?

[SandTrout]

People make the Reaper issue more complicated than it needs to be so that they can claim 'empathy' with them because western society has taught our generation that sympathy and altruism are the highest virtues and that if you find something to be abhorrent, it means that you simply misunderstand it. Mental gymnastics are performed in order to make the Reapers into sympathetic beings that fit within this general philosophy of relativism.

I however, look at the simple facts of the situation: The Reapers' goals and our goals are mutually exclusive to each other, therefor violent conflict is inevitable and mercy is not practical. To hate the Reapers is pointless because they do not seek your approval. To sympathize with the Reapers is suicidal because their goal is your destruction.

I fight the Reapers because their goals are abhorrent to me. Their goals are abhorrent to me because I understand them. I do not hate them, I simply recognize the necessity of their destruction.