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[Thompson family]

Without getting too much into politics, I can only dream for such a day as "Atlas Shrugged" becoming required reading for high-school students.

The fact that Ayn Rand is mistaken for a serious philosopher is a major indictment of the state of philosophy in the United States. Her justification of the creators contains no serious criteria by which to judge whether a creator's work has any value, at least not before any particular "creator's" project is completed.

In "Atlas Shrugged," for example, every genius who could have produced Rearden metal -- or stainless steel, or nickel chrome steel or any other advance in metalurgy — could not be distinguished from a crank who wasted his investor's money until and unless he successfully produced a product. That served as no guarantee his or her next project would succeed.

If any "producer" ever lived, it was Nickola Tesla. He made a fortune with his useful patents — and blew it all trying to find ways to transmit high voltage without wires. Thomas Edison rejected alternating current as the means to distribute eletricity. Albert Einstein rejected the whole basis of quantum physics with the famous statement:  "God does not play dice." Henry Ford was running his company into the ground until it was taken over by his son in a proxy fight so bitter, Ford's own wife voted her shares against him. Steve Jobs was forced out of Apple because his projects lost money. He learned something during his exile before coming back and turning into what we remember today.

The idea that there are a few individuals who, unchecked, could lead us all to fullfillment is worshipfull childishness.

[JoePilot]

Thompson family wrote...

The fact that Ayn Rand is mistaken for a serious philosopher is a major indictment of the state of philosophy in the United States. Her justification of the creators contains no serious criteria by which to judge whether a creator's work has any value, at least not before any particular "creator's" project is completed.

I'm PilotJoe, and this is my favorite post on the Citadel.

Seriously though, Ayn Rand has some hardcore followers and any discussion will incite some SERIOUS disagreements, and will derail this thread HARD.  Maybe make a new thread? Please?

[Dean_the_Young]

JoePilot wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JoePilot wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So... how about starting up our own, moral Reaper cycle if galactic e-zero death really is unavoidable?

And become that which you detest?  Hmmmmmm.

What I destest is the involuntary extinction event surprise attack.

'My' cycle would be voluntary: you can volunteer to become a Reaper, or we let you wipe yourselves out and wait for the next batch.

Sorry, I can't help myself:

So do you leave behind the mass relays and citadel, thus allowing the next species that may not want to join your club the opportunity to jump to your level of evolution and then wipe you out?

Nope.

Or do you destroy all your left-behind infrastructure, wasting immeasurable time and resources each cycle to acquiesce to what may be a hard-headed species, and thus simultaneously lengthining the time it would take any other species to rise to a high enough level by possibly hundreds of thousands of years?

Nope.

Though I'll point out that, once we reach Reaper-singularity, 'waste' is something that doesn't matter to us. We don't need to use the time or resources for anything else... so why not?

Once your rich, you can spend pennies freely.

I bring this up because for all their power, reapers are not invincible, and need prolonged periods of hibernation.  Seems like either way would be inneficient and counter-productive.

It's never been established that they 'need' periods of hibernation. Vigil threw that out as a possible reason for their retreat, but that was in the bunch of speculation it itself admitted was unknown and unknowable from what it had.

[Thompson family]

JoePilot wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

The fact that Ayn Rand is mistaken for a serious philosopher is a major indictment of the state of philosophy in the United States. Her justification of the creators contains no serious criteria by which to judge whether a creator's work has any value, at least not before any particular "creator's" project is completed.

I'm PilotJoe, and this is my favorite post on the Citadel.

Seriously though, Ayn Rand has some hardcore followers and any discussion will incite some SERIOUS disagreements, and will derail this thread HARD.  Maybe make a new thread? Please?

You raise a good point, JoePilot. I'll do my part. If anybody wants to debate the point, let's go to a philosophy website and leave this one alone. I'll follow. Really. No kidding. Be along any minute now.

[JoePilot]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Though I'll point out that, once we reach Reaper-singularity, 'waste' is something that doesn't matter to us. We don't need to use the time or resources for anything else... so why not?

Once your rich, you can spend pennies freely.

I don't know, I think the reapers are bound by the same limits of FTL that the rest of the galaxy is; that's why it took so long for them to reach Bahak without a mass relay.  Without the relay network, it would take decades, maybe centuries to traverse the galaxy using standard FTL, and that itself was obviously a big enough deal to them that they built the darned things.

I think they're limited in what they can do more than you might realize.  Rome wasn't built in a day, and the reapers didn't just "poof" the mass relays into existence.  I think the key is once they're engaged, they're vulnerable in ways we don't fully understand.

Why did Sovereign suddenly shut down after inhabiting an avatar that subsequently was destroyed?

[Dean_the_Young]

Because the Avatar was destroyed? (Not sure if that was your point: don't deploy an Avatar in combat.)


The Reapers FTL is notably faster than the rest of the galaxy's, and has more endurance as well (getting from darkspace to here). It may certainly have the same underpinnings, but it's certainly 'better' than ours.

Not, mind you, that Reapers need to fly to solar systems to check them out. That's what leaving Reaper relics and high-tech spy satellites are for. We only need to fly around checking ourselves for as long as it takes to set up a detection system: high initial cost, but enduring. We could set up Von-Neuman automated factories to do it.



The key importance, however, is that we don't need to stick around. If they accept our offer, we stay. If they don't, we vamoose, leave them the tools (e-zero supplies) of their own destruction such that they die before escaping the galaxy, and let the galaxy go black and kill them.

Then we come back to the next galactic cycle and go 'you should have seen what those last people did.'

[SandTrout]

Thompson family wrote...

Without getting too much into politics, I can only dream for such a day as "Atlas Shrugged" becoming required reading for high-school students.

The fact that Ayn Rand is mistaken for a serious philosopher is a major indictment of the state of philosophy in the United States. Her justification of the creators contains no serious criteria by which to judge whether a creator's work has any value, at least not before any particular "creator's" project is completed.

In "Atlas Shrugged," for example, every genius who could have produced Rearden metal -- or stainless steel, or nickel chrome steel or any other advance in metalurgy — could not be distinguished from a crank who wasted his investor's money until and unless he successfully produced a product. That served as no guarantee his or her next project would succeed.

And from this I know that you have not read the book, because this point is actually adressed very clearly. If you produce something that people want or provides happiness to you, then you have produced something of value. Value is by its nature intrinsically subjective. If you want something, that implies that you value it, therefor it has value to you. If you make something that no one wants, then it is worthless and has no value.

If any "producer" ever lived, it was Nickola Tesla. He made a fortune with his useful patents — and blew it all trying to find ways to transmit high voltage without wires. Thomas Edison rejected alternating current as the means to distribute eletricity. Albert Einstein rejected the whole basis of quantum physics with the famous statement:  "God does not play dice." Henry Ford was running his company into the ground until it was taken over by his son in a proxy fight so bitter, Ford's own wife voted her shares against him. Steve Jobs was forced out of Apple because his projects lost money. He learned something during his exile before coming back and turning into what we remember today.

We a humans, not gods, and many of us make mistakes, for which we are responsible.

The idea that there are a few individuals who, unchecked, could lead us all to fullfillment is worshipfull childishness.

Well, it's a good thing that Ayn Rand never made this claim.

Modifié par SandTrout, 20 octobre 2011 - 10:11 .

[JoePilot]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Reapers FTL is notably faster than the rest of the galaxy's, and has more endurance as well (getting from darkspace to here). It may certainly have the same underpinnings, but it's certainly 'better' than ours.

Where did you get that information from? It's certainly news to me, and I don't recall anything in the canon mentioning it before.

The key importance, however, is that we don't need to stick around. If they accept our offer, we stay. If they don't, we vamoose, leave them the tools (e-zero supplies) of their own destruction such that they die before escaping the galaxy, and let the galaxy go black and kill them.

How is eezo the tool of their destruction?  I am confused.  I would think that they would just evolve along the same or similar path we did, then eventually make their own reaper.  In which case, same result as what we offered, only now they may see us as competition to be destroyed.  Or, they just faff about for millions of years, warring with each other and wasting valuable time and resources while we sit and twiddle our quantum thumbs.

[SandTrout]

Dean presented a hypothetical with the assumption that the Reapers have the cycle because of some sort of eezo/dark energy related environmental backlash, and we kill the Reapers and achieve singularity on our own terms, then we create our own, more moral cycle.

It's a hypothetical with a lot of assumptions is all.

[Dean_the_Young]

JoePilot wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Reapers FTL is notably faster than the rest of the galaxy's, and has more endurance as well (getting from darkspace to here). It may certainly have the same underpinnings, but it's certainly 'better' than ours.

Where did you get that information from? It's certainly news to me, and I don't recall anything in the canon mentioning it before.

That Reapers are out in darkspace? ME1. That it takes them years to travel from their spot to the galaxy? ME2. That organic FTL is limited in range and endurance? ME1/ME2 codex on FTL.

The key importance, however, is that we don't need to stick around. If they accept our offer, we stay. If they don't, we vamoose, leave them the tools (e-zero supplies) of their own destruction such that they die before escaping the galaxy, and let the galaxy go black and kill them.

How is eezo the tool of their destruction?  I am confused.  I would think that they would just evolve along the same or similar path we did, then eventually make their own reaper.  In which case, same result as what we offered, only now they may see us as competition to be destroyed.  Or, they just faff about for millions of years, warring with each other and wasting valuable time and resources while we sit and twiddle our quantum thumbs.

The e-zero overuse theory I'm refering to goes like this: 

Dark energy such as that responsible for the collapse of the Haestrom sun is tied to the use of biotics and mass-effect drives being used too much and too often. If left unchecked, the stars of the galaxy will die and the the entire galaxy will become unlivable. Since e-zero is naturally occuring and the advantages of e-zero tech so dominant that, once found, they will become widespread in any species before they understand the consequences of overuse. Mass Effect technology is both a natural progression of all technology (see all the galactic cycles variations, from Prothean mind-tech to the Leviathan of Dis bio-ships to the variation of this galactic cycle) and a literal endpoint: using it is the end-game of all life in the galaxy.

(Add to this the possibility that no other FTL is possible, and Mass Effect truly is the pinacle of technology. No alternative need exist in the ME universe.)

The Reaper cycle then becomes not only a reproduction scheme, but a galactic survival tool. Species are culled before they can reach the point-of-no-return and trigger Haestrom collapses, killing all life in the galaxy. (The reason the Reapers are attacking now, by extension, is that we've passed their goal and are reaching dangerously close to the point of no return.) The reapers cull, leave room and opportunity for new species to grow, and ascend 'worthy' species to their state of technological singularity.

Reaper mass effect engines like the Mass Relays exist to help shepherd this system along and make it more manageable. Since e-zero is naturally occuring and producable, simply denying the Mass Relay network alone wouldn't stop the rise of e-zero tech once species got big enough... but getting that big would make them harder to handle. Hence the Citadel trap, here analogous to a controlled burn of the galaxy when concerned about overwhelming forest fire. They cycle exists to allow the end of life (preventing the destruction of the galaxy), allow the growth of new life (enabling the galaxy to live on), and to preserve the best of life (the Reapers preserving of worthy species).

So Reapers have been what they say (salvation through destruction by galactic collapse), are what they claim (the pinnacle of evolution and technology, because everyone would die if they go further), aren't lying, but aren't mitigated either.

Of course, if true, Shepard in ME3 will probably go 'I don't care, we'll find our own way' and end the Reapers regardless of the reasons for their existence.


That's the theory I'm referring to.

Only, I'm saying 'let them burn the galaxy themselves, rather than us murder them.'

[Thompson family]

SandTrout wrote...

And from this I know that you have not read the book ...

I've read both Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead, and her short, early nonfiction book on Objectivism. We were all young once, and many of us who aren't are still immature. Still, I appear to have read them more attentively and certanly more critically than some.

As has already been pointed out, SandTrout, this is a Mass Effect forum. It is not a pop pseudo-philosophy forum. If you must have the last word, post again.  I give you the parting shot if you choose to take it.

And if you ever want to discuss Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch", I'm game.

Modifié par Thompson family, 20 octobre 2011 - 11:14 .

[JoePilot]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That Reapers are out in darkspace? ME1. That it takes them years to travel from their spot to the galaxy? ME2. That organic FTL is limited in range and endurance? ME1/ME2 codex on FTL.

I'm sorry, I didn't make that question very specific.  I agree with everything you've just said - the only part I am still questioning is why you think that Reaper FTL is faster than the FTL of any other species.  They may have been just beyond the edge of the galaxy, not too far out, and that wouldn't require that their FTL be faster than ours to reach such an outer system as the Bahak.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

[Eezo galactic extinction theory]

That's a rather compelling theory.  I like it.

However, if it's true, then what you're suggesting is that:

A.) The reapers are correct and are trying to save themselves and us from ourselves, and if we destroy them we are in effect destroying ourselves, because there is no way in hell that the galactic community is going to willingly stop using biotics/Eezo powered FTL of it's own free will.  (you can draw an illustrative parallel here with global climate change and burning fossil fuels, *yes, the science is heavily debated, but assuming it wasn't* because there will always be holdouts until the cause and effect is obvious and irreversible.)

and/or,

That we can somehow advance to reaper-level technology ourselves, without continued use of FTL (to avoid killing the galaxy) but that once we do, we should give other civilizations the choice of wether or not to kill the galaxy themselves, and that after they do we can somehow pick up the pieces a few billion years later?

I must not be understanding how impermanent your galactic doomsday scenario is, becuase the universe is only ~13 billion years old, and as long as it may take (theoretically) civilizations to advance for each harvest, it would take a hell of a lot longer for the galaxy to reboot and life to form again.

I don't think even reapers can survive the galaxy dying, otherwise, why would they care?

Modifié par JoePilot, 21 octobre 2011 - 01:09 .

[rhyddhau]

If I had to hazard a wild guess, I'd say that the minds within the Reapers have been indoctrinated. This allows the writers an easy way out of the Reaper war by having Shepard find a cure for indoctrination.

[SandTrout]

@Thompson family,

I didn't bring up the topic, and made a point of dropping it nearly immediately, so if the discussion continues, it is because you chose to continue it. Don't preach to me about bringing up non-ME in this forum when I wasn't the one who brought it up.

@Dean,

The dark-energy extinction theory is an interesting one that has bounced around the forums a lot, but I see a critical flaw. The Reapers purposefully lay out Eezo-based technology to be found and utilized by organic species. In fact, if humanity hadn't used the Martian cache to find the Charon relay, humanity most likely would not have ever discovered eezo-base physics because it is apparently not found natively in our solar system. The fact that there is a Relay here, though, implies that the Reapers want us using their (eezo based) technology. The Reapers take no steps to prevent its use between cycles, and actually encourage it with the Relay network.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The e-zero overuse theory I'm refering to goes like this: 

Dark energy such as that responsible for the collapse of the Haestrom sun is tied to the use of biotics and mass-effect drives being used too much and too often. If left unchecked, the stars of the galaxy will die and the the entire galaxy will become unlivable. Since e-zero is naturally occuring and the advantages of e-zero tech so dominant that, once found, they will become widespread in any species before they understand the consequences of overuse. Mass Effect technology is both a natural progression of all technology (see all the galactic cycles variations, from Prothean mind-tech to the Leviathan of Dis bio-ships to the variation of this galactic cycle) and a literal endpoint: using it is the end-game of all life in the galaxy.

(Add to this the possibility that no other FTL is possible, and Mass Effect truly is the pinacle of technology. No alternative need exist in the ME universe.)

The Reaper cycle then becomes not only a reproduction scheme, but a galactic survival tool. Species are culled before they can reach the point-of-no-return and trigger Haestrom collapses, killing all life in the galaxy. (The reason the Reapers are attacking now, by extension, is that we've passed their goal and are reaching dangerously close to the point of no return.) The reapers cull, leave room and opportunity for new species to grow, and ascend 'worthy' species to their state of technological singularity.

Reaper mass effect engines like the Mass Relays exist to help shepherd this system along and make it more manageable. Since e-zero is naturally occuring and producable, simply denying the Mass Relay network alone wouldn't stop the rise of e-zero tech once species got big enough... but getting that big would make them harder to handle. Hence the Citadel trap, here analogous to a controlled burn of the galaxy when concerned about overwhelming forest fire. They cycle exists to allow the end of life (preventing the destruction of the galaxy), allow the growth of new life (enabling the galaxy to live on), and to preserve the best of life (the Reapers preserving of worthy species).

So Reapers have been what they say (salvation through destruction by galactic collapse), are what they claim (the pinnacle of evolution and technology, because everyone would die if they go further), aren't lying, but aren't mitigated either.

Of course, if true, Shepard in ME3 will probably go 'I don't care, we'll find our own way' and end the Reapers regardless of the reasons for their existence.


That's the theory I'm referring to.

Only, I'm saying 'let them burn the galaxy themselves, rather than us murder them.'

And it's possibilities like that, that contributed to my decision to wait until reviews and spoilers are out before buying ME3.  I'd rather have the ending spoiled than waste my money on a game in which something like you've described turns out to be the case. 

[JoePilot]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And it's possibilities like that, that contributed to my decision to wait until reviews and spoilers are out before buying ME3.  I'd rather have the ending spoiled than waste my money on a game in which something like you've described turns out to be the case. 

A little too tree-huggerish for your taste, or just too convoluted?  (I'm not convinced we'll get any kind of explanation other than the one we've already been given - the reapers are just another life form trying to expand and grow their species, and we're their spawning ground, period.)

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, if true, Shepard in ME3 will probably go 'I don't care, we'll find our own way' and end the Reapers regardless of the reasons for their existence.

I'm fully expecting that.

[Killjoy Cutter]

JoePilot wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And it's possibilities like that, that contributed to my decision to wait until reviews and spoilers are out before buying ME3.  I'd rather have the ending spoiled than waste my money on a game in which something like you've described turns out to be the case. 

A little too tree-huggerish for your taste, or just too convoluted?  (I'm not convinced we'll get any kind of explanation other than the one we've already been given - the reapers are just another life form trying to expand and grow their species, and we're their spawning ground, period.)

Too convoluted, too tree-huggy, and too "sympathy for the devil" trope / twist. 

And while to some people it might seem like a new twist, it's actually a stale trope at this point -- "the pitiless, vile monsters are actually doing something absolutely necessary in the greater scheme of things" has been done to death at this point. 

[JoePilot]

Well, whatever they decide to do with the reapers better be really good, or it will leave a helluva dent in the franchise. For all our talk of wild theories, I can't imagine the difficulty the writers must face having to wrap this thing up in a satisfying, plausible way that doesn't feel cheap or forced, but also leaves room for future games (because we know that's gonna happen.)

Make no mistake, this thing is a minefield, and I really hope Bioware is up to the challenge and can do the (almost) impossible. A nice exploration/exposition level followed by a level of sweeping revelations, a'la Virmire and Illos should do nicely.

Time will tell.

Modifié par JoePilot, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:35 .

[111987]

I never fully understood the 'eezo overuse' theory. Why would using biotics or mass effect technology cause a dark energy buildup in some random star out in Geth space, or any star for that matter? It's not like organic races are pumping dark energy into stars or whatever. Maybe I'm missing something obvious but I don't see the connection here.

Modifié par 111987, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:21 .

[marstor05]

maybe its nowt to do with anything but preserving lifeforms, maybe from gamma ray bursts which would decimate life in the galaxy.