31 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

Hypothetical Scenario:
With the beginnings of the Mage-Templar war, Every country in thedas supports the chantry. Never have they had  support and power to this extent - The Countries of thedas give them leave and full trust to do what they wish not questioning them in the slightest. The Templars conscript the majority of the populace and have a massive army the likes of which the world has never seen.

With this power the chantry decides to completely eradicate two of its rival factions The Dalish and the mages.

There is still one group the people would listen to however, The Wardens. You are the first warden and have the ability to convince the people one of these groups is necessary to stop future blights and the eradication of both is going to far. But if you support both the people will think you ask to much and that the wardens are overstepping their bounds and not support you.

You can only convince the people to support leaving alone one group. Which do you save and why?

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[Augustei]

I'd pick the mages myself. The Dalish complain to much - And although they have mages they have to few. We need mages to give us the equivalent of modern medicine in thedas. And help us with our battles. Plus magic is awesome =D

[Anvos]

Fairly sure Tevintar would side with mages as they aren't part of the main chantry and DA2 makes it sound like their headed to reverting the damage Hessarian did when he disbanded the magister lords.

As for mage and dalish thing. Mage

The dalish just need to give up instead of trying to hold back elf society from adapting to the post fall of the dales world.

Also all somebody needs to do is prove to the templars that the use of lyrium is more to control them instead of helping their powers and chantry loses a great deal of power.

Modifié par Anvos, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[Wulfram]

Why would the Chantry bother to eliminate the Dalish? A few wandering elves aren't any threat.

But anyway, the Mages are by far the greater military access and thus the Wardens would rather save them.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I'd pick the mages myself. The Dalish complain to much - And although they have mages they have to few. We need mages to give us the equivalent of modern medicine in thedas. And help us with our battles. Plus magic is awesome =D

Hypothetically, I'd agree. Mages are useful, even if dangerous. the Dalish are a fading society too focused on the past, too focused on "the glory days of old". And they seem to be declining in numbers as well, where as the mages seem to be increasing in numbers. And well, the Dalish did produce Cammen.........

To be honest, however, I'd tell the Chantry to go to hell and ignore their request. They would have to find someone else to indulge their genocidal urges. The Wardens really don't need them, and the Chantry was virtually useless in the last Blight.

[Augustei]

Anvos wrote...

Fairly sure Tevintar would side with mages as they aren't part of the main chantry and DA2 makes it sound like their headed to reverting the damage Hessarian did when he disbanded the magister lords.

As for mage and dalish thing. Mage

The dalish just need to give up instead of trying to hold back elf society from adapting to the post fall of the dales world.

Also all somebody needs to do is prove to the templars that the use of lyrium is more to control them instead of helping their powers and chantry loses a great deal of power.

Nah Tevinter is probably the least likely to side with the mages since, like DG said the Imperiums Magisters dont like political competition and would see foreign mages as such and probably have them eliminated.. he didn't say exactly that but something to that effect. They wouldn't be welcome in tevinter anyway methinks.

Wulfram wrote...
Why would the Chantry bother to eliminate the Dalish? A few wandering elves aren't any threat.

Because those dirty heathens are annoying pests =P at least in the chantrys eyes, they harbor mages not under the chantrys control and cause trouble for local villages.. Plus as the chantry says, they are dirty heathens lol.

Wulfram wrote...
But anyway, the Mages are by far the greater military access and thus the Wardens would rather save them.

Ok but which would YOU rather save though?

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
To be honest, however, I'd tell the Chantry to go to hell and ignore
their request. They would have to find someone else to indulge their
genocidal urges. The Wardens really don't need them, and the Chantry was
virtually useless in the last Blight.

Yeah but in said scenario they have the support of pretty much all of thedas and are going to kill both these groups unless you intervene - So by telling them to go to hell they will just kill both groups =P

They were useless for most people who didn't annul the circle, not for those that did - Dont think there would be many though

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

XxDeonxX wrote...

They were useless for most people who didn't annul the circle, not for those that did - Dont think there would be many though

Well, true. Though I generally attribute that more to Gregoire keeping his own word that he would help you since the mages no longer could. The Chantry seems to be at odds with the wardens alot. Part of it, I think, its because they aren't afraid to recruit or utilize blood magic and other forbidden arts.

I've annuled the Circle twice in Origins, and both times, I got the impression from Gregoire he really wasn't too thrilled about helping, but did so because he gave his word, and you helped him out of a hairy situation.

[RagingCyclone]

Anvos wrote...

Fairly sure Tevintar would side with mages as they aren't part of the main chantry and DA2 makes it sound like their headed to reverting the damage Hessarian did when he disbanded the magister lords.

As for mage and dalish thing. Mage

The dalish just need to give up instead of trying to hold back elf society from adapting to the post fall of the dales world.

Also all somebody needs to do is prove to the templars that the use of lyrium is more to control them instead of helping their powers and chantry loses a great deal of power.

I am sure that there are some Native American Indian tribes that would greatly disagree with this statement, like the Sioux, Cherokee, Navajo to name a few.

[Cobra's_back]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


Well, true. Though I generally attribute that more to Gregoire keeping his own word that he would help you since the mages no longer could. The Chantry seems to be at odds with the wardens alot. Part of it, I think, its because they aren't afraid to recruit or utilize blood magic and other forbidden arts.

I've annuled the Circle twice in Origins, and both times, I got the impression from Gregoire he really wasn't too thrilled about helping, but did so because he gave his word, and you helped him out of a hairy situation.

Skadi- I played a mage and didn't have any problems with the Chantry. In Lothering, I told the Chantry I was the Warden and they said they would cover for me. The Templars said they didn't have much money to give me, but they gave me the key to a cabinet with a bunch of stuff. They really seem supportive. As for the Circle Knight Commander Greagoir told me he had to get the circle back in shape but First Enchanter Irving was free to help. I don't know if this is because I did all the Chantry quest board task. It seem to me a profitable relationship to work with the Chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dalish aren't needed per say. They do supply some more troops though.

[Augustei]

They are skilled Archers and well there's bound to be plenty of them considering the scenario is all dalish everywhere

[EmperorSahlertz]

True. But anyone can be a skilled archer given enough trainning. Not everyone can be a mage, and mages are actually needed. There are fewer mages than dalish (I guess) though, so it is all about wether or not all the Dalish can equal the amount of destruction the mages can wreak.

[jamesp81]

First, I will say OP's scenario is somewhat flawed. The Templars are no longer part of the Chantry at the end of DA2.

Secondly, I would support preserving the mages. From a cold, military logistical standpoint, they're a more valuable resource. They are born, and cannot be trained. Anyone can be an archer with sufficient training.  The martial skills of a dalish soldier can be trained.  Mages are very limited in numbers, however, and cannot be trained.

Now, in the OP's scenario, if I was making the choice, I'd tell the templars to sod off.

Modifié par jamesp81, 26 septembre 2011 - 09:57 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Hypothetical Scenario:
With the beginnings of the Mage-Templar war, Every country in thedas supports the chantry. Never have they had  support and power to this extent - The Countries of thedas give them leave and full trust to do what they wish not questioning them in the slightest. The Templars conscript the majority of the populace and have a massive army the likes of which the world has never seen.

Fereldan no longer supports the Chantry.  Alistair makes that very clear and so does "Sister Nightengale".  I strongly suspect that Fereldan is on the verge of going "Church of England" on the Chantry.  Remember that unlike other places, the Chantry got painted with a broad black brush as an "Orlesian" institution during the long and brutal Orlesian occupation of Fereldan (and the Chantry did enable the Orlesians) and most Fereldans haven't forgotten or forgiven the Chantry.  That isn't to say that Feredans aren't devout Andrastians because they are, but I don't think they hold the Divine or Grand Cleric in very high esteem regardless of their views on Andraste (which is why Alistair has the political window to defy the Chantry as much as he has...and IMHO likely will).

-Polaris

[Sons of Horus]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Hypothetical Scenario:
With the beginnings of the Mage-Templar war, Every country in thedas supports the chantry. Never have they had  support and power to this extent - The Countries of thedas give them leave and full trust to do what they wish not questioning them in the slightest. The Templars conscript the majority of the populace and have a massive army the likes of which the world has never seen.

Fereldan no longer supports the Chantry.  Alistair makes that very clear and so does "Sister Nightengale".  I strongly suspect that Fereldan is on the verge of going "Church of England" on the Chantry.  Remember that unlike other places, the Chantry got painted with a broad black brush as an "Orlesian" institution during the long and brutal Orlesian occupation of Fereldan (and the Chantry did enable the Orlesians) and most Fereldans haven't forgotten or forgiven the Chantry.  That isn't to say that Feredans aren't devout Andrastians because they are, but I don't think they hold the Divine or Grand Cleric in very high esteem regardless of their views on Andraste (which is why Alistair has the political window to defy the Chantry as much as he has...and IMHO likely will).

-Polaris

Why go church of england when you have the Tervinter Black Divine ?

[hero 2]

Why do I care about any of these factions?

[UltiPup]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

True. But anyone can be a skilled archer given enough trainning. Not everyone can be a mage, and mages are actually needed. There are fewer mages than dalish (I guess) though, so it is all about wether or not all the Dalish can equal the amount of destruction the mages can wreak.

No one can beat an elf archer. They are better trackers, hunters, archers, scouts, etc.


I'd pick the Dalish. Yes mages are indeed needed but I cannot have a man behind me that might turn on me. Heck, the entire Uldred situation makes mages a risky comrade to have. Sure you have amazing powers at your disposal, but that exact power can be turned against you. At least with the Dalish, I don't really have to worry about this. It seems less likely that a Keeper or their First would get corrupted. 

If we assume that the Dalish will be able to use them, then I would have a few varterral on my side. Which is like the god card if a varterral cannot ever die like Merrill says. 

[CrimsonZephyr]

Sons of Horus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Hypothetical Scenario:
With the beginnings of the Mage-Templar war, Every country in thedas supports the chantry. Never have they had  support and power to this extent - The Countries of thedas give them leave and full trust to do what they wish not questioning them in the slightest. The Templars conscript the majority of the populace and have a massive army the likes of which the world has never seen.

Fereldan no longer supports the Chantry.  Alistair makes that very clear and so does "Sister Nightengale".  I strongly suspect that Fereldan is on the verge of going "Church of England" on the Chantry.  Remember that unlike other places, the Chantry got painted with a broad black brush as an "Orlesian" institution during the long and brutal Orlesian occupation of Fereldan (and the Chantry did enable the Orlesians) and most Fereldans haven't forgotten or forgiven the Chantry.  That isn't to say that Feredans aren't devout Andrastians because they are, but I don't think they hold the Divine or Grand Cleric in very high esteem regardless of their views on Andraste (which is why Alistair has the political window to defy the Chantry as much as he has...and IMHO likely will).

-Polaris

Why go church of england when you have the Tervinter Black Divine ?

Because every Tevinter is an Ax Crazy lunatic who probably deserve to be wiped out to a man?

[thats1evildude]

Wulfram wrote...

Why would the Chantry bother to eliminate the Dalish? A few wandering elves aren't any threat.

Indeed. The premise of the thread is flawed.

The Chantry might not be crazy about the Dalish, but they don't really pose a significant threat, not in the way that a mage uprising does. ESPECIALLY when said mage uprising seems to be backed by the Tevinter Imperium.

Why would the Chantry spend resources to hunt down a handful of scattered elven tribes when they need every templar they can muster to put down the mage rebellion?

That said, save the Dalish. New mages will always be born, but once the Dalish are gone, so too is their culture.

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Dalish complain too much 

Oh yes, because you never hear any Circle mages complaining about their lot in life. <_<

Modifié par thats1evildude, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:57 .

[Anvos]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Anvos wrote...

Fairly sure Tevintar would side with mages as they aren't part of the main chantry and DA2 makes it sound like their headed to reverting the damage Hessarian did when he disbanded the magister lords.

As for mage and dalish thing. Mage

The dalish just need to give up instead of trying to hold back elf society from adapting to the post fall of the dales world.

Also all somebody needs to do is prove to the templars that the use of lyrium is more to control them instead of helping their powers and chantry loses a great deal of power.

Nah Tevinter is probably the least likely to side with the mages since, like DG said the Imperiums Magisters dont like political competition and would see foreign mages as such and probably have them eliminated.. he didn't say exactly that but something to that effect. They wouldn't be welcome in tevinter anyway methinks.

Or they could see it as a way to revive the old Imperium, by empowering the mages to overthrow the chantry and then states that locked them away and took away their inheritences.

[Augustei]

thats1evildude wrote...
Indeed. The premise of the thread is flawed.

I direct you to the first line of my thread in response.

thats1evildude wrote...
Oh yes, because you never hear any Circle mages complaining about their lot in life.

Not really no, only Anders - and Orsino when he has good reason to.
The dalish are still complaning about something that happened almost 1000 years ago to their great anscestors. The Mages are complaining about whats happening to them right now.

IanPolaris wrote...
Fereldan no longer supports the Chantry.

In this scenario they do. Its purpose is trying to determine who people like more out of mages and dalish - Didn't work out to well though lol

[Foolsfolly]

The Dalish are dying off and in the case of the group camped near Kirkwall for 7 years they actively kill themselves. So I don't see them as a threat worth putting down. Not when there are more active threats such as the Mages, Tevinter, darkspawn, and the Qunari. Do the Chantry like the Dalish? Not really but not enough to divert attention to destroying them.

EDIT:

In the spirit of the question... I don't know. I don't like the Dalish. But I think I'd support the Dalish anyway. The Mages tend to be insane and abominations.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 27 septembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think it's too early to say that Ferelden has rebelled against entire Chantry. I also don't remember any sign in any of the games that the general populace of Ferelden is hostile to the Chantry at all.

[IanPolaris]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think it's too early to say that Ferelden has rebelled against entire Chantry. I also don't remember any sign in any of the games that the general populace of Ferelden is hostile to the Chantry at all.

I don't think so.  Alistair is clearly working contrary to the Chantry and Alistair is a popular king.  Mind you, I don't think that Fereldans dislike their local chantries run by their local mothers.  However, the chantry as a whole?  If Alistair openly declared that he was head of the Chantry and had the right to appoint the Grand Cleric of Denerim, I don't think there would be much objection from the common folk esp if the local chantries were left alone.

We already know that Alistair doesn't like the chantry and is openly working against them at least on the mage issue.  We also know that his father and Gen Loghain very nearly kicked out the Chantry because they openly backed a very brutal occupation (and the people of Fereldan do remember that).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Anothing thing.  As I recall, in Lelianna's prequel, Dorothea (who later would become Justina V) makes it very clear that the local Denerim Chantries and Clergy are very different from the Orelsian ones, and "correct" at best which is why she couldn't get local support.  This is BEFORE King Alistair starts openly defying Val Royaleux.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 septembre 2011 - 09:35 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think it's too early to say that Ferelden has rebelled against entire Chantry. I also don't remember any sign in any of the games that the general populace of Ferelden is hostile to the Chantry at all.

I don't think so.  Alistair is clearly working contrary to the Chantry and Alistair is a popular king.  Mind you, I don't think that Fereldans dislike their local chantries run by their local mothers.  However, the chantry as a whole?  If Alistair openly declared that he was head of the Chantry and had the right to appoint the Grand Cleric of Denerim, I don't think there would be much objection from the common folk esp if the local chantries were left alone.

We already know that Alistair doesn't like the chantry and is openly working against them at least on the mage issue.  We also know that his father and Gen Loghain very nearly kicked out the Chantry because they openly backed a very brutal occupation (and the people of Fereldan do remember that).

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Anothing thing.  As I recall, in Lelianna's prequel, Dorothea (who later would become Justina V) makes it very clear that the local Denerim Chantries and Clergy are very different from the Orelsian ones, and "correct" at best which is why she couldn't get local support.  This is BEFORE King Alistair starts openly defying Val Royaleux.

It's still a bit of a leap to conclude they're on the verge of seceding from the Chantry. Alister saving a few local mages from templars doesn't nessesarily mean he's in open revolt. He even seems unwilling to press the issue further than he has already, most mages are still in the Circle and he admits they are mostly beyond his reach. If he had tried to forcibly remove the templars from Ferelden, then maybe that would be the case but he doesn't seem especially enthused about committing to such a prospect. Also, just because he's a popular king, it doesn't nessesarily follow that the common folk approve of every single thing he does nor does it mean they definately all resent the Divine of the whole of the Chantry. The Codex gives a mixed view on Alister anyway, he himself admits his rule has been plauged by problems and in some cases it says that Alister is veiwed by some as a usurper after Anora was dethroned.