428 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

Xewaka wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
I disagree entirely. Objective-based XP is great, and I want it, but kill-based XP is also important to me.
Removing it entirely only works when there are actually other ways of completing an encounter slash objective than just combat. If combat is unavoidable, I want each kill to get me experience. If combat is avoidable, but I choose to take the combat route (which I, personally, likely wouldn't, but a lot of people likely would, so let's pretend I'm one of them, ew), then I want each kill to get me experience. Experience slash loot are the ways to make combat rewarding (beyond the simple pleasure of fun combat).
The rewards for non-combat solutions have to be balanced accordingly, of course.

So what you're saying is that any possible alternative route should be punitive to the player compared to the murder mode. That is exactly the kind of thing that must be avoided, and that is why removing XP from anything other than objectives (primary or secondary) promote a more varied gameplay. When you remove the mechanical limitation of being forced to have each path offer the same XP, you have the players resolving each situation in the manner that best fit their tastes and the character they're playing.
Must be because I play PnP regularly, but this need of having XP ping on each kill is utterly ridiculous to me.

The most hilarious thing about ME2 to me: the one game where they get it right and make XP per mission is the one game where they lock every door until you've killed every mob anyway. Infiltrator was a huge disappointment the first time around, let me tell you.

[Siegdrifa]

Gallimatia wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I agree with this. In games which offer both I often find myself opting for the violent resolutions, because killing stuff often has more experience points.

In Deus Ex HR you get a substancial experience bonus for every enemy you use non leathal vioelence on. As a power gamer I was compelled to go through that game without killing anyone. And lets not forget all the computers I hacked despite having the code to and all those enemies I took down soley for exp after having already snuck past them in a vent (for traveller bonus).

Deus Ex HR that supposedly encourages different play styles has the worst experience system I know of in this regard, especially seeing as how the enemies don't seem to scale so leveling up just helps you. I hate it with a passion and would much prefer only objective based exp.

Yeah, while i loved Deus EX HR, it is clearly more rewarding to use unlethal and steatlh ways.
What is strange with that is :
-you pack ammo like crazy for nothing
-you upgrade and mod your weapon to never use them
- you get so much more experience that your character get fully augemented but don't need it since stealth and hacking don't require lot of augementation.

[Xewaka]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
The only difference between having a single XP reward at the "mission accomplished" screen and having multiple separate-but-equal XP rewards along each possible solution path is the timing and pacing. And I want to feel rewarded for doing what I like to do, be it stealth, combat, talking, or whatever.

That's why I used "objective" and not mission or quest when describing the milestone for XP awarding. I understand cRPG uses a different pacing than a PnP game. But there's a whole spectrum covering the distance between "inmediate ticking" and "complete game".
Balance within paths is more easily kept when they differ only in the nature of the challenge.

Modifié par Xewaka, 27 septembre 2011 - 10:16 .

[Gallimatia]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
I disagree entirely. Objective-based XP is great, and I want it, but kill-based XP is also important to me.
Removing it entirely only works when there are actually other ways of completing an encounter slash objective than just combat. If combat is unavoidable, I want each kill to get me experience. If combat is avoidable, but I choose to take the combat route (which I, personally, likely wouldn't, but a lot of people likely would, so let's pretend I'm one of them, ew), then I want each kill to get me experience. Experience slash loot are the ways to make combat rewarding (beyond the simple pleasure of fun combat).

The rewards for non-combat solutions have to be balanced accordingly, of course.

So what you're saying is that any possible alternative route should be punitive to the player compared to the murder mode. That is exactly the kind of thing that must be avoided, and that is why removing XP from anything other than objectives (primary or secondary) promote a more varied gameplay. When you remove the mechanical limitation of being forced to have each path offer the same XP, you have the players resolving each situation in the manner that best fit their tastes and the character they're playing.
Must be because I play PnP regularly, but this need of having XP ping on each kill is utterly ridiculous to me.

I've boldened, underlined, and italicized the sentence that you seem to have missed. The only way to "remove the mechanical limitation of being forced to have each path offer the same XP" is to remove XP entirely (which, and taken note BioWare, is an absolutely godawful idea).

The only difference between having a single XP reward at the "mission accomplished" screen and having multiple separate-but-equal XP rewards along each possible solution path is the timing and pacing. And I want to feel rewarded for doing what I like to do, be it stealth, combat, talking, or whatever. I don't want to be rewarded for some generic "get sh*t done" feat. That's boring. I want XP for disarming a trap. I want XP for successfully convincing the guards I'm supposed to be there. I want XP for shoving my blade through someone's chest.

You then run the risk of ending up with a Deus Ex system where because you get exp for everything you encourage the player to do everything despite how senseless it is. If you continously award the player along either path you have to either lock the player out of alternative paths once a step has been taken or the most efficent way will be to nonsensically travel one path to the near end and then another to the end. To first talk your way past a group of enemies and then attack them anyway for double rewards.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 27 septembre 2011 - 10:36 .

[Looper128]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

Only speaking for myself. I don't think Jennifer is doing a good job and I think the decision of letting her write Anders Character was a huge mistake by Bioware.

She took a established and likable character from the dragon age universe and just totally rewrote it. Becoming a incredibly unlikeable character. If your going to use an old character with an established background and personality, especially a liked character as Anders. You have too stay faithful to the original.

As I said, these are only my personal opinions. And when it comes down to the core, the message I would like to pass on is: Please, don't rewrite already established characters.

[Brockololly]

JohnEpler wrote...
Now, combat should be fun and engaging, and it should be a rewarding and viable way to play a game. I don't think you'll see any disagreement from us on that point. But I don't think it needs to be the only way to play a game, and I think the general sentiment is that each fight should be meaningful. While there are going to be fights you can't avoid (for whatever reason, whether circumstantial or otherwise), they shouldn't always be the only solution. And players who choose a different style of progression should be equally rewarded. RPGs should be in line with their name - playing a Role. Not a combat simulator, in other words, but something where options exist. And, certainly, when you travel in certain circles and poke your nose into the business of others, sometimes you are going to have to fight. But a player should never feel like a game has two beats - 'fight, talk'. We hope to move further away from that idea in the future.

But if you want to get beyond "fight-talk-fight-talk..." wouldn't that require some more robust NON COMBAT SKILLS? Because I really think bringing back the NON COMBAT SKILLS would be a good first step.

[Varen Spectre]

I like the hints of at least thinking about more ways how to solve situations in future games in this thread. Even though I haven't played any of Dragon Age games, I will definitely cheer for such approach in Bioware's games.

What worries me a little bit though is that "skip combat" option. Not that I have something against it or that I would want to restrain other people in their playstyles (especially not in the game I haven't even played:pinched:), but I was hoping that in future games, the combat and story could be more interconnected.

The good example in my opinion is recent Deus Ex. For instance, the way that main bosses fight tells a lot about them (Barret is straightforward - goes right after the player, cocky - doesn't even try to cover or avoid attacks and taunts the player all the time,  and agressive - shoots on sight; while fo example Namir tries to cloak himself and attack player from behind - which tells that he is much more sneaky and careful)....

While this is a good example of how to connect story and combat, it has nothing to do with "skip combat option". I am aware of that. It was just an example that I lacked in this thread. 

However, when the player can receive new and maybe important information or at least part of the story during the combat section - as was partially the case of fight with Fedorova - then I am affraid that "skip combat" option could limit the developers' options to tell us interesting things during that combat. Well, maybe not, but that would mean that the guys who skipped combat section would be at disadvantage and I am not sure if that is acceptable.

[mesmerizedish]

Lopper128 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

Only speaking for myself. I don't think Jennifer is doing a good job and I think the decision of letting her write Anders Character was a huge mistake by Bioware.

She took a established and likable character from the dragon age universe and just totally rewrote it. Becoming a incredibly unlikeable character. If your going to use an old character with an established background and personality, especially a liked character as Anders. You have too stay faithful to the original.

As I said, these are only my personal opinions. And when it comes down to the core, the message I would like to pass on is: Please, don't rewrite already established characters.

This just in! Characters are no longer to develop! Sh*t is no longer allowed to happen! Quick! Someone re-write A Tale of Two Cities!!!

[Xewaka]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Lopper128 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

Only speaking for myself. I don't think Jennifer is doing a good job and I think the decision of letting her write Anders Character was a huge mistake by Bioware.
She took a established and likable character from the dragon age universe and just totally rewrote it. Becoming a incredibly unlikeable character. If your going to use an old character with an established background and personality, especially a liked character as Anders. You have too stay faithful to the original.
As I said, these are only my personal opinions. And when it comes down to the core, the message I would like to pass on is: Please, don't rewrite already established characters.

This just in! Characters are no longer to develop! Sh*t is no longer allowed to happen! Quick! Someone re-write A Tale of Two Cities!!!

What always gets me about this is that people forget that thing they havein front is not Anders, but an abomination wearing his skin. He doesn't act like Anders because he isn't Anders anymore.

[tmp7704]

Lopper128 wrote...

She took a established and likable character from the dragon age universe and just totally rewrote it. Becoming a incredibly unlikeable character. If your going to use an old character with an established background and personality, especially a liked character as Anders. You have too stay faithful to the original.

If i'm not mistaken though, Mr.Gaider has approved what was done to Anders' character, so it does stay 'faithful to the original' in the sense the change Anders goes through was deemed as not character-breaking. Plus, the Anders fan thread being 2k+ pages long shows he can be quite likeable for some of the players, still...

[Sutekh]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

This just in! Characters are no longer to develop! Sh*t is no longer allowed to happen! Quick! Someone re-write A Tale of Two Cities!!!

Dammit! You beat me to it.

@Lopper128

People change. Even in real life, they do. Please, life, stop rewriting people.

And, as you said, it's your opinion. I personally like the fact that Anders goes from a likeable character, albeit slightly shallow, to a very interesting case of mixed spirits personality. So, in my opinion, it's a rather good job.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think it's pointless to view the games in anything other than isolation. Within DA2, Anders is coherent. Within Awakenings, Anders is (presumably) coherent.

Full stop. There's no justification for comparing the two.

[AtreiyaN7]

Lopper128 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

Only speaking for myself. I don't think Jennifer is doing a good job and I think the decision of letting her write Anders Character was a huge mistake by Bioware.

She took a established and likable character from the dragon age universe and just totally rewrote it. Becoming a incredibly unlikeable character. If your going to use an old character with an established background and personality, especially a liked character as Anders. You have too stay faithful to the original.

As I said, these are only my personal opinions. And when it comes down to the core, the message I would like to pass on is: Please, don't rewrite already established characters.

Oh, dear God, the character isn't the same as the one I knew and loved because he followed the path that was hinted at in Awakening...he CHANGED. HORRORS!!!!!!

I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE FACT THAT HE UNDERWENT SOME CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AND GROWTH. OMG - I THINK I'M GOING TO HAVE TO CUT MYSELF NOW TO MAKE UP FOR HOW BETRAYED I FEEL!

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:24 .

[Brockololly]

Lopper128 wrote...
She took a established and likable character from the dragon age universe and just totally rewrote it. Becoming a incredibly unlikeable character. If your going to use an old character with an established background and personality, especially a liked character as Anders. You have too stay faithful to the original.

As I said, these are only my personal opinions. And when it comes down to the core, the message I would like to pass on is: Please, don't rewrite already established characters.

Its fine to change a character over time, but I think the way they handled Anders was pretty crappy character development. Not that what he turned into was bad, but the way in which it was handled and presented to the player was not handled well.

Such that, the last time the player sees Anders is in Awakening. Then you see him in DA2 and not only does he look and sound different, but presumably the largest event to occur in his entire life and th ebiggest formative event in his life (merging with Justice) happens off screen. And this cuts to the core of one of BioWare's problems in their storytelling- they tell but don't show. If you want me to care for somebody like Anders, who as a player I've already identified with in DAA, don't toss that to the curb in between games and claim thats character development.

So coupled with the time jumps, DA2 Anders never felt like Awakening Anders to me, which is even further compounded by playing as a new PC who can't react to the changes from Awakening to DA2 Anders. Which as a player, I found frustrating.  They just felt like totally disparate characters. So any built up emotional engagement I had with Anders as a character in DAA was pissed away by not showing his most important character development moment on screen. But this is just a problem too with bringing back old characters with new PCs too.

So especially if they keep the annual roster change of PC's between games, I 'd hope they don't use old companions with new PCs and give old companions the Anders treatment of having some big moment occur off screen causing them to be almost completely different from game to game. Have that progression occur on screen, in the game, with one PC, so the player can more clearly experience it and have their PC react to it in an informed way. Otherwise, just use all new characters with an all new PC.

Modifié par Brockololly, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:28 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

OMG - I THINK I'M GOING TO HAVE TO CUT MYSELF NOW TO MAKE UP FOR HOW BETRAYED I FEEL!

I'm tempted to sig that.

[xkg]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Lopper128 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

Only speaking for myself. I don't think Jennifer is doing a good job and I think the decision of letting her write Anders Character was a huge mistake by Bioware.

She took a established and likable character from the dragon age universe and just totally rewrote it. Becoming a incredibly unlikeable character. If your going to use an old character with an established background and personality, especially a liked character as Anders. You have too stay faithful to the original.

As I said, these are only my personal opinions. And when it comes down to the core, the message I would like to pass on is: Please, don't rewrite already established characters.

Oh, dear God, the character isn't the same as the one I knew and loved because he followed the path that was hinted at in Awakening...he CHANGED. HORRORS!!!!!!

I CAN'T LIVE WITH THE FACT THAT HE UNDERWENT SOME CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AND GROWTH. OMG - I THINK I'M GOING TO HAVE TO CUT MYSELF NOW TO MAKE UP FOR HOW BETRAYED I FEEL!

OMG LOOK. SOMEONE HERE CAN"T ACCEPT THAT SOMEONE ELSE IS HAVING DIFFERENT OPPINION EVEN THOUGHT THAT PERSON CLEARLY STATED THAT IT IS ONLY HIS OPPINION.
HOW CAN IT BE. HORROR

[AtreiyaN7]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

OMG - I THINK I'M GOING TO HAVE TO CUT MYSELF NOW TO MAKE UP FOR HOW BETRAYED I FEEL!

I'm tempted to sig that.

As insane as you occasionally drive me, I'm honored.

[AtreiyaN7]

xkg wrote...

OMG LOOK. SOMEONE HERE CAN"T ACCEPT THAT SOMEONE ELSE IS HAVING DIFFERENT OPPINION EVEN THOUGHT THAT PERSON CLEARLY STATED THAT IT IS ONLY HIS OPPINION.
HOW CAN IT BE. HORROR

HORRORS - SOMEONE CAN'T RECOGNIZE WHEN SOMEONE ELSE IS BROADLY MOCKING AN OFTEN-VOICED CRITICISM DIRECTED AT HEPLER!!!!!

I have, frankly, lost count of the people who have complained about how Hepler being a terrible writer - solely because Anders isn't exactly the same as he was in Awakening. She's A) not terrible and  if you can't handle growth and change in familiar characters, well, hey, that's your problem, not mine.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:37 .

[happy_daiz]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I have, frankly, lost count of the people who have complained about how Hepler being a terrible writer - solely because Anders isn't exactly the same as he was in Awakening. She's A) not terrible and  if you can't handle growth and change in familiar characters, well, hey, that's your problem, not mine.

Actually, to have such strong feelings for or against Anders is a sign of good writing. To have an emotional response at all shows that the writing was effective. People care about Anders, whether it be good or ill. Honestly, people need to back off the poor lady.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:45 .

[K_Tabris]

Ms Hepler is into the literary part of creating games. Some are in it for the game play, or both. Nothing wrong with her opinion.

I agree with her to an extent. There should be some fight sequences we can opt out with the x button as we can with cut scenes, provided this is during a repeated play through. Part of an rpg is about the choice in it, so, I don;t see why this consideration is out of line...

[Nashiktal]

I don't agree with that happy. While I liked anders actions in game for the most part, having a reaction to characters in a sequel that existed in previous games isn't always a sign of good writing.

It may indicate good writing for the previous work, but emotional responses doesn't directly indicate good writing.

[happy_daiz]

Nashiktal wrote...

I don't agree with that happy. While I liked anders actions in game for the most part, having a reaction to characters in a sequel that existed in previous games isn't always a sign of good writing.

It may indicate good writing for the previous work, but emotional responses doesn't directly indicate good writing.

Hmm. Maybe I should have added "for me". I'm a chick, and I'm a Cancer, so if you know anything about astrology, you know that means I'm ruled by the moon. We're emotional crazies.

[Foolsfolly]

Why are we talking about Anders again?

Jenn was told Anders direction and worked with that direction in mind. Sure, she could have had him change more over time so he's jovial and funny in Act 1 and gets more and more obsessed and Vengeance driven... but she didn't. Sun rise, sun set.

Do I think Gaider would have done a better job? Yeah, probably. Just his voice on the character would have made the transitioning better. But I didn't think Anders was terribly done, there are some really good and clever bits. I especially like his romance.

Do I like what happened to the guy? No. He became a monster. Sad but true. And that direction was decided and who ever wrote it would have had him become that monster. I'm not the biggest Anders fan so I can't really defend the guy or his writer.

As for Ms. Hepler, the Dwarven Commoner was my favorite origin, I loved Orzammar and the whole Anvil of the Void. I also like Bethany, Cullen, and Sebastien. Elthina was alright. Navie and allowed the problems of Kirkwall to escalate but she wasn't bad. She's a fine writer.

I disagree with her opinion but that means nothing about her talent or passion for the series. I don't get these attacks on her.

Unrelated I want to say I love David Gaider and Lukas Kristjanson's writing.

[Siegdrifa]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Ms Hepler is into the literary part of creating games. Some are in it for the game play, or both. Nothing wrong with her opinion.

I agree with her to an extent. There should be some fight sequences we can opt out with the x button as we can with cut scenes, provided this is during a repeated play through. Part of an rpg is about the choice in it, so, I don;t see why this consideration is out of line...

For exemple, what will definitly keep me entiteled to my opinion, is :

Your personal evolution through the game come from challenge and choice, the reward is delivered after accomplishing the "challenge", for exemple, in ME2 you will get back tali (i'm supposing you like this character since ME1), to get her back, you thave to save her from the geth attack ==> fighting the geth is the challenge, getting Tali back is your reward (yeah ! my old friend from ME1 !).

Let's take another exemple, a puzzle game, you love the picture but you hate making puzzle, will you complain to the puzzle manufacturer to make the "making puzzle" skipable because you are just intrested in a picture ?

That's why in my earlier post i said it could look like a spoiled child comportement, and also why i said "are you sure the product your purchased fit your taste ?"

Video games put the player in a proactive position with interaction, skipping action (being fight, stealth or other) only to get the reward (often rpg make the story go forward, this is a kind of reward) make the player passive; by my standart, it's crossing the line that make the product not a video game anymore first, and second i'm against giving reward for NOTHING.

Though i'm totaly open to "give" the reward through easy (even VERY easy) difficulty mod, less complicated mechanics and such, less ennemys, i'm a hardcore player, but not someone that belive a game can be liked only by my skills. I don't care that the player sneez and kill 3 mobs at once because it's realy easy, this is still interaction where he / she progress through 3D environement, watch animation of characters etc, it also make the game shorter as a whole, but it is a lot more easy to uncover the game story that way.
But a skip button.... no or don't call it a video game please.

Comparing what we can do in video games and what we can do with DVD is a bad exempl, in a dvd you are ALWAYS passive, the picture are recorded, you can't change the character move, camera position and the time you spend in a location, you interactivity (which is a fake here) is limited to "choose your chapter, going forward, backward, stop, play", but the movie itself don't change from your action.
Video games allow you do a lot more, that's why they are called "games", you interactivity influence, shape the whole product through characters, moves, skills, how long you spend a in alocation, how many time to talk to X or Y, allowing to skip that and it's not a video game anymore, and i find dangerous to think that the evolution of video game will put the player in a more passive way. Video games keep reaching more and more people because they offer something you can't get in movies and DVD as just "a watcher".

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:05 .

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

I strongly suggest hiring one of the legions of better writers out there that actually like video games.

Also, the whole 'I'm a girl, so video games and math are hard ' rhetoric makes me want to punch a baby.