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What the hell did i just read?


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#276
Siegdrifa

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Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

I strongly suggest hiring one of the legions of better writers out there that actually like video games.

Also, the whole 'I'm a girl, so video games and math are hard :(' rhetoric makes me want to punch a baby.


Actualy working with people that actualy are not fond of video games or hardcore players can helps to think outside the box and bring some new fresh air, especialy if they are willinng to invest their own pation on a production made by a whole team.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:15 .


#277
Merci357

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Just a simple question, Siegdrifa...

Why do you care how different people play their games? That doesn't change your own personal gaming experience in any way.

Of course, gameplay is integral to games - but we are not talking about FPS here. Skipping dialogue is possible, but I'd say dialogue is also an integral part of BioWare games.

That said, in what shape and from does it impact your game, when I play DE:HR on "Give me Deus Ex", while you play on "Tell me a Story"? You play ME2 on insane, I play on casual. You skip the dialogue, I use "console killallhostiles".

What does is matter, if it's only an option? That doesn't change anything for you and your experience. I frankly don't care at all how you play your games. If you have a good time while doing so, more power to you. And honestly the only thing that matters for me is some enjoyment while I play games the way I want.

#278
Vice-Admiral von Titsling

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Siegdrifa wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

I strongly suggest hiring one of the legions of better writers out there that actually like video games.

Also, the whole 'I'm a girl, so video games and math are hard :(' rhetoric makes me want to punch a baby.


Actualy working with people that actualy are not fond of video games or hardcore players can helps to think outside the box and bring some new fresh air, especialy if they are willinng to invest their own pation on a production made by a whole team.


If the 'fresh air' method brings us games like DA2 then I'd rather go back to the echo chamber, thanks.

#279
Siegdrifa

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Merci357 wrote...

Just a simple question, Siegdrifa...

Why do you care how different people play their games? That doesn't change your own personal gaming experience in any way.

Of course, gameplay is integral to games - but we are not talking about FPS here. Skipping dialogue is possible, but I'd say dialogue is also an integral part of BioWare games.

That said, in what shape and from does it impact your game, when I play DE:HR on "Give me Deus Ex", while you play on "Tell me a Story"? You play ME2 on insane, I play on casual. You skip the dialogue, I use "console killallhostiles".

What does is matter, if it's only an option? That doesn't change anything for you and your experience. I frankly don't care at all how you play your games. If you have a good time while doing so, more power to you. And honestly the only thing that matters for me is some enjoyment while I play games the way I want.


Because giving the freedom to the player to do anything and everything can lead to a mess.

When working on a project like a video games where different profession meet, you need to have cohesion and stick to some lines. That's why it is usualy a pyramydal structure for decision, where each  stage interact with the stage above and the stage below, but the leads must keep some objectif in sight (and take final desicion), because it's easy to get lost in a project where many people come from many different profession with different experience, background and everybody have to up their knwoledge and expertise to make one identity.

After, it'sa matter of education, i'm not sure how to say it in english, but nothing should be given for nothing in return, you want to get the "reward", you have to do at least a smal work to get it. That's what's a game is all about, always promosing a kind of reward for participing in the game (each player see different reward, some see it as story, some see it as new capacity to use, some nex area, some enjoy everything).
For me the line is crossed when you stop to participate, being (in a way, at least) open minded, i'm not saying this participation must be huge, i always tried to promote video games and his potential (i had lot of argue 13 years ago to convince some people that video games could have high standar story and story telling, i dreamed of those kind of games) so i knew difficulty was the first problem to overcome to enjoy a game (always loosing means never getting the reward lead to "video game is a waste of time").
I'm fine allowing ultra easy difficulty (i also know in fact it won't push people to become a better gamers, some people care about being good, some don't and just enjoy the easy interaction, i'm fine with that), as long as more people enjoy it the way they play, i'm fine.

Still, being part of devs, and being actualy cg freelancer (3D) i'm agains't skiping contant. Like i said, it would mean in a way that the oher devs aknowledge that their game is not good enough so they to allow this feathure. No artist with pride would allow that, it's better to know "why here they want to skip it? may be we can make a better job".
You know, it's rare when a game came out with his full contant, there is always level cuted here and there, quest skiped here and there, some character not implemented in the end, i can't speak for all devs, but it's always tiring inside me to see all this work go to waste, you and the team worked so hard for it, but you can't delay a game forever and some corner must be cuted. When you grow in this industry may be you get less sensitive about that and it's more easy to deal with, when you are young, not so much.

I also know that you can't please everybody, it's already hard to satisfy the gamers that wants to play the game, they all have their ideas and expectation, it's too hard to fulfill all those hope, but if i had to choose, i prefer to work for those who are impatiant to play it even if i can't meet their expectation, rather than the few who don't want to play it by skiping it to their conviniance and without pity. In video games industry you better get used to overnight work to meet the deadline, so yhea, if you want to skip that, i won't care much about your opinion if it doesn't help to make a better game.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 28 septembre 2011 - 02:31 .


#280
Siegdrifa

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Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

I strongly suggest hiring one of the legions of better writers out there that actually like video games.

Also, the whole 'I'm a girl, so video games and math are hard :(' rhetoric makes me want to punch a baby.


Actualy working with people that actualy are not fond of video games or hardcore players can helps to think outside the box and bring some new fresh air, especialy if they are willinng to invest their own pation on a production made by a whole team.


If the 'fresh air' method brings us games like DA2 then I'd rather go back to the echo chamber, thanks.


Video game are made with the time and budget they are allowed.

#281
Bryy_Miller

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Siegdrifa wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

If the 'fresh air' method brings us games like DA2 then I'd rather go back to the echo chamber, thanks.


Video game are made with the time and budget they are allowed.


Pretty much this.

That being said, DA2 was very polished in the context of the timeframe it had.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 28 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .


#282
tmp7704

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Siegdrifa wrote...

Still, being part of devs, and being actualy cg freelancer (3D) i'm agains't skiping contant. Like i said, it would mean in a way that the oher devs aknowledge that their game is not good enough so they to allow this feathure. No artist with pride would allow that, it's better to know "why here they want to skip it? may be we can make a better job".

If i buy a game, it's so i can have fun, not to stroke the artist's ego. The artists and the rest of the devs get paid for the work they deliver, and any ego stroking they wish to receive on top of that is optional, and secondary.

Aside from the pride, the artists should also possess the common sense, and realize that a game has to ship at some point and once that happen you can't "make a better job", it's out and done. And no matter how good that job was, it's not going to appeal to everyone because that's plain impossible. That has little to do with 'not being good enough' and much more with diversity of human tastes.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 septembre 2011 - 03:41 .


#283
Imported_beer

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Before fans claim that Bioware has abandoned them, perhaps they should look at they way they conduct themselves and see how they themselves alienate any human being that would work for Bioware.

Works both ways.

If you are hellbent on seeing Ms. Hepler as a "cancer to the gaming universe" or whatever- you will find some way of doing so. Far be it for you to think that- she may be of the philosophy that the story should be so interesting, the dialogue so immersive, the plot so tight that people still feel like a part of the world even if they are not swinging madly at some evil looking thing. Combat is not an integral part of game play. If most situations could be solved by high diplomacy/speechcraft skills, will it completely stop being an RPG? If I could use dexterity or intelligence, to solve a quest, did it make me a whiny wuss scared of combat? She is using an example.

Sheesh.

#284
Imported_beer

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Okay and here is epic fail number 2.

This is not something she said a couple of months back, or even a couple of years back even. IT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO.

Do you hold exactly the same opinions on every thing you held FIVE YEARS AGO? Is it worth bringing up something that is...let me repeat this FIVE YEARS AGO to make some unrelated point about the way things are now?

Do you even remember every single opinion you had on everything FIVE YEARS AGO?

Seriously. Sometimes you people scare the bejesus out of me.

#285
Addai

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Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

I strongly suggest hiring one of the legions of better writers out there that actually like video games.

Also, the whole 'I'm a girl, so video games and math are hard :(' rhetoric makes me want to punch a baby.

Since that's not what she said, your argument is invalid.  Actually invalid, not ironically so.

Preferences are not handicaps.  We all got them, just like we all got an opinion or ten.  It was probably incautious to lump all women together, but the question itself is asking for trouble.

#286
Oopsieoops

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Stanley Woo wrote...

If the discussion is about giving players the option to skip combat, I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean that we would put a lesser focus on combat. Those players who choose to play the combat through would still have to have a good combat experience. It's the same as people wanting a "toggle" for some game features. We wouldn't be doing less work; we'd be doing more work in order to make the game a good experience for those who have the option toggled on as well as those who have the option toggled off.

As to what would get the development attention, how about any of the other hundreds of things that make up a game? We could put more time or effort on conversation, for example, or level design. Or polish. Or pacing. Or memory optimization. Or character animation. Or boss fights. Or testing edge cases. Or romances. Or whatever.

It's a hypothetical situation based on most people thinking that game development decisions are static, one-time binary choices in a vacuum, rather than iteration and meetings and decision-making and compromise based on an ongoing global vision.


But that's precisely my point, you wouldn't just staple a toggle button on top of the game, that would be sloppy work and reflect poorly on the company. You would also have to further develop the non-combat part of the game in order to make it at least capable of holding it's own. And I don't think you'd be working doing more work overall (nor do I think it would be reasonable to expect you guys to, for that matter ;) ), so development resource allocation for each aspect is a zero sum: you can only increase it for one by reducing it for some other. So by increasing development focus for non combat aspects you'd have to reduce it for the combat part. I'm aware this is a gross simplification, but my argument is that developing non combat aspects necessarily means combat development will suffer proportionally, even if the exchange ratio isn't 1/1.

BTW, I actually think this is a good thing, since in a RPG I value non-combat aspects far more than the combat. I was just saying that those who value combat do have a valid reason to be worried if this toggle were to be implemented.

Modifié par Oopsieoops, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:23 .


#287
Danyu

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I think it's pretty funny how some people can take another person's words, perspective, etc. and blow them out of proportion where it can become a whole other matter completely.

But I guess this is just another part of life.

I think I'm going to go be depressed again and eat more ice cream.

#288
The Big Nothing

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Who skips through DVDs and books?

"This is the part where Michael Corleone sits in the diner preparing to assassinate two men. I'm gonna skip through all of this boring 'tension' stuff and go right to the shooting."

#289
LordKinoda

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Again, how people play their games is none of your business. Why do you care? How does it prevent you from enjoying playing?


How the average Joe plays their game no, that dosen't concern me. But when one of the writers of the game has such an asinine opinion it gives me pause. I seriously hope her ideas are not given any real consideration.

But the sad truth is, gaming is no longer for us few brave and nerdy hanging around these forums... it is for the buying masses that want to be able to skip gameplay and story for... ahm, yea not really sure what for... why playing games at all anymore?


That should NEVER be the "sad truth". Somebody who I will not even consider a real gamer, heh, imposing their idioitic preferences onto a hobby that I enjoy. I don't jump onto some other hobby message board/site/game/etc. somebody else loves to which I might only have a passing interest in and suggest imposing things onto it in order to make it better for me personally.

As I said, this wouldn't have any real bearing if it were anybody other the ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO POSSIBLY have a say in the making of the game.

I agree with you 100% . And I really don't understand why some people are miffed with what Jennifer Hepler said 4 years ago - as long as such solutions are optional, no one should be complaining (just look at ME3 General Discussion forums and the whole 'arrows are stupid - I'm not rtard' thing). Unbelievable.


This should not even be considered to be an option. It's just ludicrous plain and simple. I don't care how long ago it was written. I can only hope she has no real say in the direction of the game.

Adding an option to remove blood is fine, if a bit silly for me personally, but I can understand the reasoning. Adding an option to remove swear words is also odd to me, but again I can understand why some might like it. Adding an option to skip gameplay/combat is just completely nonsensicle, period. There is no logic behind it. Other than "I'm so busy with my schedule that I only want to have a passing interest in this particular hobby, so it should cater to my personal schedule and tastes." No it should not. This type of game is NOT made for you, nor should it cater to you. PERIOD.

I say again, I could give a flying rats arse if this particular opinion came out of Joe Blow's mouth. But it didn't, did it ?

I'm completly fine with other options to given situations other than direct combat. I love to talk my way out of situations with the protagonist, or sneak around them, etc. But adding an option to completly skip over the combat that DOES arise is just dumb.

But she is largely exagerating, 100h games ... where ?

I know I went over 100 hours with Morrowind. That's the only game in my experience to do that. Sure I spent maybe too much time arranging things in my house or just dungeon crawling. But I could stay with the same character for a long time in that game. A LOT more time with the two expansion sets (although I'd blast through Tribunal as quickly as I could because I hated the story, setting, and characters. Loved Bloodmoon though).


Logged 106 hours with FFX. About 50-60 hours with KOTOR. Probably around 33-35 with ME, and about the same with ME2, maybe a little more including the DLCs. For DAO, including Awakening, it's probably around 75-80 hours. FO3 logged around 90-110 hours for me. And let's not even consider my time with MMO's, because we start getting into the thousands of hours marks. And we'll also exclude the replays with these games, because I have played each of them at least twice to completion, if not more.

But that's the thing, this is my main hobby. I put a lot of my free time into it, because I enjoy it. Obviously I wouldn't if I didn't. So to see a post like that, from a contributor of a game I really enjoy, just makes my skin crawl and my blood boil. Games like Dragon Age ARE NOT MADE FOR PEOPLE LIKE HER. She needs to play Tetris, or Angry Birds, or some other equally casual game that caters to people who don't have the time to put into the "hardcore" type genre of games. How this not seen as a complete universal truth by every true Dragon Age fan, I cannot know.

Modifié par LordKinoda, 28 septembre 2011 - 07:02 .


#290
FedericoV

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Danyu wrote...

I think it's pretty funny how some people can take another person's words, perspective, etc. and blow them out of proportion where it can become a whole other matter completely.


Honestly, I do not think that it's the case. Hepler message fits quite well with that "interactive storydriven games" mantra that you hear from Bioware with more and more insistence in the last years. The principle because of wich Bioware games are becoming interactive movies where more and more resources are being put on cinematic and voice over at the expense of gameplay. The idea that if a Bioware game has good writing and an interesting story with good voice over it will do well without interesting gameplay.

Many Bioware fans are so resigned that they do not even complain anymore about gameplay: "I play Bioware games for the story, not for the gameplay". How many time must we read that depressing line in the Bioware forums? And if the story goes wrong like DA2, what's left? Someone will give us a "skip paying" button to avoid the boring part of being a Bioware customer?

What I mean is that pure storytelling (as much interactive as it can be) will NEVER be an adequate subsitute for GAMING. Narrative and writing are really an important part of gaming in RPGs but it's still a part and not the more important. 

#291
xkg

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LordKinoda wrote...
Adding an option to remove blood is fine, if a bit silly for me personally, but I can understand the reasoning. Adding an option to remove swear words is also odd to me, but again I can understand why some might like it. Adding an option to skip gameplay/combat is just completely nonsensicle, period. There is no logic behind it. Other than "I'm so busy with my schedule that I only want to have a passing interest in this particular hobby, so it should cater to my personal schedule and tastes." No it should not. This type of game is NOT made for you, nor should it cater to you. PERIOD.

I say again, I could give a flying rats arse if this particular opinion came out of Joe Blow's mouth. But it didn't, did it ?

I'm completly fine with other options to given situations other than direct combat. I love to talk my way out of situations with the protagonist, or sneak around them, etc. But adding an option to completly skip over the combat that DOES arise is just dumb.


Maybe just google killallhostiles and look how many results you will get. Read this and other forums and look for yourself how many people are asking about it and using it.
And this is just on PC.

So it looks like something that is completly illogical for you isn't for quite a lot of peple out there.
Are they all wrong and you are right ?
Besides adding more options for players is never dumb.

#292
Foolsfolly

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Many Bioware fans are so resigned that they do not even complain anymore about gameplay: "I play Bioware games for the story, not for the gameplay". How many time must we read that depressing line in the Bioware forums? And if the story goes wrong like DA2, what's left? Someone will give us a "skip paying" button to avoid the boring part of being a Bioware customer?


This is true and it's not a good thing. I think they've taken a good step forward with ME2's combat but it's still got plenty of room for improvement. And I like aspects of DA2's combat and generally think it's an improvement over Origins.

I think they're taking steps. But yeah, I've said that line before. "I play BioWare games for the story not the gameplay." It was true for many many years. Jade Empire's a great example of a game where I loved the setting, characters, and story but loathed the boring, repetitive, and button mashing combat. It was so bad that many of the styles were useless. You needed a Sword, a primary fist thing (I forget which was best but there was a clear winner on which was best) and any support skill for harmonic combos.

And everything else after that was nothing. Most magic skills being terrible, shape shifting being a complete waste of time, and there was never a reason for two weapon or combat skills unless you'd already fully upgraded everything you'd need.

Not the best gameplay, but a good story.

Same with KOTOR and that those terrible shooter mechanics in Mass Effect 1 (and those shallow unimaginative skills you pumped endlessly). Or those boring reused maps in ME1 and the barren worlds with the seemingly randomly generated elevations. But the story and character work in ME1? Fantastic! And while most maps were barren or the exact same maps reused there was the Citadel which was very cool looking and beautifully thought-out.

I hope they continue to make their gameplay better. Because that'll help bring in more players and sell more games than anything else they could do. It's hard to get someone who doesn't like the genre to pick up a game that isn't fun to play, regardless on how they feel about the story or characters.

#293
Danyu

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FedericoV wrote...

Danyu wrote...

I think it's pretty funny how some people can take another person's words, perspective, etc. and blow them out of proportion where it can become a whole other matter completely.


Honestly, I do not think that it's the case. Hepler message fits quite well with that "interactive storydriven games" mantra that you hear from Bioware with more and more insistence in the last years. The principle because of wich Bioware games are becoming interactive movies where more and more resources are being put on cinematic and voice over at the expense of gameplay. The idea that if a Bioware game has good writing and an interesting story with good voice over it will do well without interesting gameplay.

Many Bioware fans are so resigned that they do not even complain anymore about gameplay: "I play Bioware games for the story, not for the gameplay". How many time must we read that depressing line in the Bioware forums? And if the story goes wrong like DA2, what's left? Someone will give us a "skip paying" button to avoid the boring part of being a Bioware customer?

What I mean is that pure storytelling (as much interactive as it can be) will NEVER be an adequate subsitute for GAMING. Narrative and writing are really an important part of gaming in RPGs but it's still a part and not the more important. 


I'm not trying to like set you up here for a one-liner or anything, but you really did prove my point with your response to my post ~ even though you were attempting to form a proper rebuttal. I actually literally laughed when I saw it and for that, I apologize.

I should however clarify that I agree with the concluding points of your post-thing. There is no substitute for gameplay, not even story. Even though story is an important part. And that many gamers are willing to sacrifice gameplay for story.

But still, my belief holds:

Many people here are blowing some words out of proportion into a whole other matter, generalizing it on a level that's just silly.

Modifié par Danyu, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:44 .


#294
esper

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As a person who has played a lot of non-combat games I think I would like the approach that many of those games do for cutscenes. (And no, I am not thinking about virtual novels games they often use fast forward)
The first timne you play through a cutscene, dialog you can't skip it because it is important. It should be the same with combat. The first time you fight a fight you can't skip it because it it important. But if you re-play the game you don't have to watch the cutscene, play the fight because it has been saved that you have cleared it. If you take a different branch through the story you and encounter a new scene (be it dialog or fight) you have to play through it at least once.
I don't know if such a thing is applicable to Bioware games, but it is my personal favoured apporach.

#295
FedericoV

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Danyu wrote...

But still, my belief holds:

Many people here are blowing some words out of proportion into a whole other matter, generalizing it on a level that's just silly.


At least you have a good laugh at that's most than anyone will get in those forums. You should not apologize: at the end we are talking of games and even if my tone could sound serious, I assure you that it's not the case. I understand your reply and I appreciated it for the irony .

But I think that I'm not proving your point and that there is a reason why those words are taken as something to worry about. There is a certain trend in Bioware declaration in the last months that points what they want to make with their games. If you do not belive me, read Brent Knwoles blog and especially his replies on the post dedicated to DA2 demo. The "skip combat" thing fits the pattern so naturally that it's hard to overlook.

Is it a personal opinion? Is it taken out of context in that thread? Yes, in many ways, it is: but you should even realize that most people understand the proper context and that they are not stupid. They just see it as another proof of the current design culture at Bioware and after DA2 fiasco, you should understand why people are concerned and willing to put those words to scrutiny.

Modifié par FedericoV, 28 septembre 2011 - 09:44 .


#296
FedericoV

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I hope they continue to make their gameplay better. Because that'll help bring in more players and sell more games than anything else they could do. It's hard to get someone who doesn't like the genre to pick up a game that isn't fun to play, regardless on how they feel about the story or characters.


I liked a lot the reasonable tone of your post and I understand your points. I even agree about ME2: the combat was improved a lot and it was really fun and rewarding (even if the game fall short on other gameplay aspects: but overall, it was a great game experience).

DA2 gameplay? Well, on some aspect it was a clear improvement (responsivity, skill system, etc.). But overall I stil think that its gameplay suffered from a lack of clear design direction. It is not an pure action RPG. And it is not a semi turn-based RPG. It's really in the middle of the scale and seems mediocre on both areas. DA:O's got similar problems but it was more of a "chess like" RPG, so as a game it felt more polished and refined.

Having said that: I do not see a constant improvement in the gameplay dept in Bioware's history. I see spikes of excellence in the games where they have put more resources, time and attention to details to the gameplay. In substance, since resources are limited, gameplay should allways be the priority and narrative could be enhanced with other tools than cinematic storytelling, tools that are less restrictive and expensive. 

#297
Maria13

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I'm with Hepler.

Maker assist me, there are things I'm good at in games and things I'm very, very bad at (usually things that require co-ordination, born with two left hands as well as feet, that's me). One of the things I HATE is having to do something in a game and not being allowed to progress until you've passed it.

Case in point: Witcher 2

Love the game, love the plot love old Gerard... But... Well right at the beginning I had trouble arming the ballista, in the end had to resort to hubby, and, yeah, I'm playing on easy. Maybe having a touch of RA in the hands does not assist either. Had to set the whole game aside in Act II because I simply couldn't get past the point where I had to shadow the assassin and believe you me, I tried hundreds of times... That's not right.

If anyone knows of a cheat, I'll kiss your feet! :P

Modifié par Maria13, 28 septembre 2011 - 12:15 .


#298
xkg

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^
Of course. You can't be good at everything. I remember someone posting here about DA2 fights - that they were to hard for him even on easy level.

Skipping combat in games like for example Mortal Kombat wouldn't have any sense but in case of bioware games there are so many others aspects one can enjoy that combat isn't all that important.

Denying those people to continue to play their game because "you need to beat the game" or "you must work to earn your XP" is very selfish.

Games supposed to be fun not some kind of challenge (at least not for everyone).
Now if some people can't beat that particular fight - instead of having fun they are getting upset. Wht's the point ?

They paid for their game so let them play it anyway they want.

Modifié par xkg, 28 septembre 2011 - 12:40 .


#299
tmp7704

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The Big Nothing wrote...

Who skips through DVDs and books?

"This is the part where Michael Corleone sits in the diner preparing to assassinate two men. I'm gonna skip through all of this boring 'tension' stuff and go right to the shooting."

Ever noticed the fast forward button on the dvd player, and the ability to jump to certain 'chapters'? I wonder what it's for if no one uses it...

(books have these abilities built in, too)

#300
SnowHeart1

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This is quite the head-scratcher for me. I imagine Hepler is a frustrated author/writer needing to make some money to pay the bills, so here she is at a videogame company. I could be *completely* wrong on that, but I'm not sure why else you would work in an industry where you don't much care for the product except that you need the dough. Does that mean Bioware should dump her? No. There's lots of niches to be filled in the design and development of a game, including writing. Some of the better games the last few years have hired professional writers to assist with the development of the plot and characters, and they are certainly not programmers.

That said, I find the fundamental suggestion a tad inapposite. That's what the difficulty setting is for Failing that, do a google search and ask for help/guidance. Otherwise, what you're saying is, I don't like the game. That's a personal opinion that is completely valid as an opinion, but it kind of crosses the line from a toggle for certain settings into a different realm of, "I don't want a game, I want a slightly interactive movie experience."