428 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

LordKinoda wrote...
No it should not. This type of game is NOT made for you, nor should it cater to you. PERIOD.

Oh.  Just curious.  Who made you Emperor of RPGs?

[Blastback]

Addai67 wrote...

LordKinoda wrote...
No it should not. This type of game is NOT made for you, nor should it cater to you. PERIOD.

Oh.  Just curious.  Who made you Emperor of RPGs?

*Lady peasant voice*

Well I didn't vote for you!

[grregg]

To be honest I am not sure what's all the hoopla about.

First, I think it is extremely optimistic to think that every developer likes everything about their games. I am sure that there are programmers that roll their eyes at what the artists produced, artists that somehow do not appreciate the intricacies of AI programming, level designers that think the stories they have to work with are a bit naive and so on and so forth. So if Jennifer Helper, a writer, dislikes combat, I fail to see what the problem is.

Second, I, for one, would very much appreciate a way to skip combat in BioWare games, and not because it is hard, but because it is boring. Or perhaps I should say that it becomes boring and that's mostly because there is simply too much of it. My warden clocked almost 1000 kills in my only DA:O playthrough and I think I got the "1000 darkspawn killed" achievement. There are just not that many things that are still fun after doing it 1000 times over.

I would prefer an in-game way of skipping combat, for example by sneaking, talking fast, organizing a distraction or, I don't know, hiring your friendly local mercenary company to kick the door instead, but if that's not available, a "skip combat" button is vastly preferred to having to kill rage demons for 417th time.

[Androme]

Why do I always read the same thing over and over again? 

''Oh, so you're the arbiter of RPGs?''

''You are the king of RPG's?''

''So you are Overlord RPG I assume?''
Will a yes satisfy you? 

Seriously though, as much as she is entitled to her opinion in other areas of games that she isn't involved in the developement of, I still really think that when working with games, you should like games (at the very least, the type of games the company you are working for usually develops). I know that certain companies has requirements such as ''burning passion for gaming'' (Direct quote from Blizzard).

edited above text^

Modifié par Androme, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[FedericoV]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Video game are made with the time and budget they are allowed.

But they allways cost the same. I've not received a discount for the shorter development cycle.

Modifié par FedericoV, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:14 .

[tmp7704]

Androme wrote...

 I still really think that when working with games, you should like games

I doubt there's really anyone working with games who actually likes all kinds of games. Consequently, i don't think someone who doesn't enjoy combat specifically can be labelled as "doesn't like games, period".

[Androme]

tmp7704 wrote...

Androme wrote...

 I still really think that when working with games, you should like games

I doubt there's really anyone working with games who actually likes all kinds of games. Consequently, i don't think someone who doesn't enjoy combat specifically can be labelled as "doesn't like games, period".

I agree with the second part, although I didn't mean to imply the first part, that someone who works with games should like ''all kinds of games'', just an interest in gaming in general. (<-- I think this is what most people think) 


In my personal opinion though, there should be no doubt that a general interest in gaming and the type of games the company you're working for usually develops should be expected by the people being employed. By that I mean an interest in RPG games if BioWare for example, or MMORPGs if you work for Blizzard, or FPS if Infinity Ward. I don't expect people to share the same personal opinion as me 

edit: Added smileys to appear more humane

Modifié par Androme, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

It's disingenuous at best to put words in other people mouths, and I'm seeing a lot of that here. We have no reason to believe Helper doesn't like games other than the fact the OP said so. Personally I think "disingenuous" is too kind a word, but we'll settle for it for now.

Just because someone doesn't like to spend hours hacking and slashing (or perhaps like me just doesn't have time) doesn't mean she doesn't like games. Seeing as she's not involved with that side of the game's development process that would have no impact on her ability or desire to do her job. In fact, she has said nothing to indicate she doesn't LOVE the game or her job. Could we please stop acting like a bunch of prats and stop with the personal attacks? Pretending you can read this woman's mind is not a valid point of discussion and just makes you look like a schmuck.

*looking right at Androme and NOT using smilies*

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 28 septembre 2011 - 05:09 .

[Davillo]

[inappropriate comment removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 28 septembre 2011 - 07:35 .

[Savber100]

Davillo wrote...
[inappropriate comment removed]

*points of Davillo* 

That my friend is a perfect example of how NOT to react..;. 

Awww did Hepler run you over with a car? Did she kick your baby? 

Honestly, people like you make me wonder if you have any social life to be sooo mad  by a comment from a videogame writer that is entitled to her own opinion. <_<

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 28 septembre 2011 - 07:35 .

[Leanansidhe]

Davillo wrote...
[inappropriate comment removed]

Do you practice being an ass, or does it just come naturally? <_<

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 28 septembre 2011 - 07:35 .

[David Gaider]

Jennifer can, without a doubt, speak for herself-- and she might, if she weren't currently on leave. Personally, I wouldn't want to put words in her mouth (as many other people seem to be willing to do) but I know for a fact that she loves RPG's. She comes from a tabletop RPG background, and worked on several tabletop RPG systems.

I think, however, that to her (and to many people) what she loves most about RPG's is the story. I don't know that she dislikes combat per se-- she certainly seems to appreciate the importance it plays in heightening the tension of a story-- but I imagine she's not as big a fan of CRPG combat mechanics, especially when they frustrate her and keep her from getting to more of the story. I don't think that, speaking as a player, asking for the option to skip combat is a crime.

Would we ever do that? Probably not-- though I can think of worse suggestions. Beyond that, Jennifer is a writer and we don't have a lot of input on game mechanics anyhow... any more than a programmer would have input on the art or an artist on the AI programming. People see "developer" and they jump to conclusions, like how some people think I'm a Lead Designer or something equivalent that decides everything that BioWare does or creates just because I post here frequently, but the truth is that the process of making a game is very collaborative with a lot of interdependencies. Everything is limited by everything else, and that's just how it works. Jennifer doesn't need to be interested in combat mechanics because that's not her job (outside of how combat plays a part in the quests she's writing), and comments that she should be seem to forget there's far more to RPG's than just the combat.

Odd that this would have to be stated on these forums, where people regularly say the opposite ("hack and slash isn't what an RPG is about") or say things like "the art quality isn't important, it's the story that matters"... but it seems some people will take any opportunity they can to lay blame or make personal attacks that smack of misogyny. Which is a little sad. Jennifer's an excellent writer and also a fine designer, and different viewpoints are just as welcome on a development team as they are among the fans.

Keep that in mind, please, and stay excellent.

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:57 .

[LordKinoda]

Maybe just google killallhostiles and look how many results you will get. Read this and other forums and look for yourself how many people are asking about it and using it.
And this is just on PC.

So it looks like something that is completly illogical for you isn't for quite a lot of peple out there.
Are they all wrong and you are right ?
Besides adding more options for players is never dumb.

KIllallhostiles is a cheat code, not an option. There is a huge difference. And I would also think that it's used for people who have multiple playthroughs, never on the first or even second playthrough.

Oh. Just curious. Who made you Emperor of RPGs?

I'll crown myself if I must, heh. Seriously though, this is my opinion. You don't have to like it, but I'll damn sure express it.

Odd that this would have to be stated on these forums, where people regularly say the opposite ("hack and slash isn't what an RPG is about") or say things like "the art quality isn't important, it's the story that matters".

I've said before I do like RPG's for the story and character interactions more than anything else. Doesn't change the fact that the combat is also necessary. An option to skip combat, because...it's too hard ? Lower the difficulty, all consoles have that option. Or even use the cheatcode for PC if you must. There's your 'options'.

Way too many other things that were wrong with the game to be attended to for DA3 than worrying about adding a combat skip.

Would we ever do that? Probably not-- though I can think of worse suggestions. Beyond that, Jennifer is a writer and we don't have a lot of input on game mechanics anyhow... any more than a programmer would have input on the art or an artist on the AI programming. People see "developer" and they jump to conclusions

That's as I thought. Still doesn't change the fact that it's a little disturbing for anybody who has input on a GAME to think like this. I don't think there's much left to say that I haven't said already. Good day and farewell to this thread for me, I've said my piece. Probably wasn't as eloquent as it could of been, but sometimes emotions rule the day.

[Demx]

What she is asking for is to turn games into visual novels. Popular in Japan, but not so much in the west.

Modifié par Siradix, 28 septembre 2011 - 09:43 .

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

Beyond that, Jennifer is a writer and we don't have a lot of input on game mechanics anyhow... any more than a programmer would have input on the art or an artist on the AI programming.

This was pointed out a few times way back when Jennifer first gave that answer.  Apparently it doesn't matter and her comments are symptomatic of the broader decline and fall of Western civilization.

[Relshar]

Writters don't need to like comuter games to write stories. Problem is DA:2 storyline and game style was bad, I mean really bad.

[Zanallen]

This Jennifer Helper, if that is her real name, is obviously a commie pinko sent here to undermine the RPG genre, and dare I say video games as a whole, from within and destroy our precious past time. We must now all ostracize her for having the gall to express her opinion about implementing an optional system that would no doubt be used by someone at some point in time.

[Yrkoon]

David Gaider wrote...

Jennifer can, without a doubt, speak for herself-- and she might, if she weren't currently on leave.

I, for one, eagerly  look forward to hearing from her if she does.  If for no reason then to give me a chance to *defend* her  specific viewpoints on the matter.

Here she is,  advocating  actual gameplay freedom  in an RPG, and   people here are attacking her argument?  Really?  It boggles the mind.  YOU people are the problem with RPGs today... not her.


I'm *all* for a skip-combat button, so long as it's just that:  a Button.... one that you can choose to press if you wish.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 28 septembre 2011 - 10:07 .

[HiroVoid]

Err.....How did this topic get so long? She doesn't need to be a fan of combat gameplay to be a good writer. They're two entirely different parts of the game.

[Zanallen]

HiroVoid wrote...

Err.....How did this topic get so long? She doesn't need to be a fan of combat gameplay to be a good writer. They're two entirely different parts of the game.

You either 100% love every aspect of video games ever or else you are an evil werewolf.

[Maconbar]

Zanallen wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Err.....How did this topic get so long? She doesn't need to be a fan of combat gameplay to be a good writer. They're two entirely different parts of the game.

You either 100% love every aspect of video games ever or else you are an evil werewolf.

But evil werewolves are much better in combat than story-driven Dalish elves.

[Callidus Thorn]

The thing is though, as I see it, if you give people the option to skip combat because they're not that interested in it, It'll cause problems. How long would it take you to play through DAO or DA2 without any combat? Would you really pay full price for a game where you'll be skipping chunks of gameplay? When you reach the end of the story, if it's not a particularly good one will you feel you've been ripped off massively, because you've got nothing out of the game?

[uberdowzen]

Ah, I remember the good old days when people were allowed to hold different opinions...

Bearing that in mind, I do disagree with Jennifer although possibly for different reasons than everybody else. If you feel that a game needs a skip combat button than the problem is that the combat isn't integrated well into the game. Combat shouldn't feel like the "game" part of an RPG rather it should be one of many outcomes to situations the game presents you with. I personally feel that Dragon Age has been moving away from this and towards the approach that combat is separate from story (almost all of the RPG elements in DA2 relate to combat).

It's an interesting time. The RPG genre is undergoing some long overdue changes and I'm really enjoying seeing how different developers are dealing with this. Maybe (and hopefully) the view of people like Jennifer may see a return to RPGs in which you can completely avoid combat through coercion, stealth and other creative solutions. Maybe we might even see an RPG which doesn't have a combat system at all.

[Yrkoon]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

The thing is though, as I see it, if you give people the option to skip combat because they're not that interested in it, It'll cause problems. How long would it take you to play through DAO or DA2 without any combat? Would you really pay full price for a game where you'll be skipping chunks of gameplay? When you reach the end of the story, if it's not a particularly good one will you feel you've been ripped off massively, because you've got nothing out of the game?

That would be up to the player to decide if he wants to skip Every single battle.  In the same way that  it's up to the player  to decide to  buy the game,   play it for an hour then  move on to another game.


The point is, the choice should be there.   Let me give you an example of My position.   I've played BG2 37 times.  It's a 100+ hour game.  And while I still love the Combat, there are *often* times when I find myself simply NOT wanting to engage in that 200th  mage encounter, and so, I hit Ctrl+Y to end it.  So that I can move on to  a more interesting part of the game.

Ctrl+Y is a cheat.  But after playing the game 37 times, it becomes something almost vital in eliminating the  tedium.  And I'm immensely thankful that  the option is there.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[Sir Caradoc]

Her comments sound strange to me. Gameplay is still the king, right? Don't we all want to take an active part in the game events, not just spectate them? I mean why else would you be playing games? I understand her point about narrow minded game design though. Bioware games lately haven't had that much gameplay aside combat.

You guys aren't really famous of designing open gameworlds. Each game has become smaller in terms of gameworld size. This hasn't been much an issue untill DA2. If you place the entire game in a one city, make it alteast feel like a city.

How about making your gameworlds more dynamic and less stationary? Have you ever thought npc routines similar to witcher and gothic? More open world approach similar to elder scrolls? Or putting more focus on stealth, social skills, puzzles instead of combat? You guys are great storytellers, but gameplay side of your games is taking heavy hits. For instance the lack of any gameworld interaction outside cutscenes is becoming quite annoying. Would it be impossible allow us to interact with the gameworld objects similar to half life 2's gravity gun for example or let us use the gameworld objects like in Arx fatalis where you could ignite torches, grill meat, bake a pie, play a lute, build a fishing rod and go fishing...

Modifié par Sir Caradoc, 28 septembre 2011 - 11:58 .