428 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone696]

Sidenote: The discussion of a skip-combat option could be really interesting. But do we really need the flailing at Mrs Hepler and a five-year old comment of her for that?

[Zanallen]

Maconbar wrote...

But evil werewolves are much better in combat than story-driven Dalish elves.

These would be non-combat werewolf who spend their days moping around the house and whining about how they never get the girl.

[DreGregoire]

Zanallen wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

But evil werewolves are much better in combat than story-driven Dalish elves.

These would be non-combat werewolf who spend their days moping around the house and whining about how they never get the girl.

Wait, don't we already have that guy in DA2? Or maybe even two of them? LOL!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:28 .

[Blannir]

I don't entirely disagree with her. I know in most jrpgs with random battles I reach a point where my party is significantly stronger then any enemies on the map so I just start hitting the auto attack option so I can finish the battle quickly and get back to the task at hand. Bottom line is having options is good, you wouldn't be forced to use an auto battle function if it was implemented so don't worry about it.

[Sowtaaw]

the whole skip combat is idiotic multiples ways to solve a problem is the best solution.

[RosaAquafire]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

Name one game that doesn't have gameplay. Oh, and puzzles and stuff like that are gameplay.

Okay I know this comment was made pages ago, but I can't help myself.

Let me point something really simple out for you. You're aware that the branching dialogue trees and changeable outcomes in Bioware games ARE gameplay, right?

Before I continue to make my argument, let me tell you that I like combat. I'm a grinder by nature and I love successfully killing something, especially if it gave me a run for my money without frustrating me to tears. I also love satisfying, punchy violence -- I sadfaced with the gibblets got patched out of DA2 because they always made me smile like a maniac. I think that well designed combat is ridiculously awesome and I enjoy it a great deal. Combat encounters that were smart and well-designed like DA:O's but were fast paced, responsive, and fun to watch like DA2's would be basically the best thing that ever happened to me in my life and I would never leave my room again.

Okay. Bearing that in mind.

If I skipped every single combat in DA:O, I would still be experiencing gameplay. Not via puzzles or "stuff," but by the dialogue. I am NOT just sitting back and watching a story take place. I am IN the story. I am defining the actions and personality of the main character. I decide what she wears, where she goes, who she helps, who she scoffs, who she bangs ... and the world reacts to her as I do that. As rewarding as killing the Broodmother for the first time was, I felt a great deal more personally engaged with the game when my little City Elf begged Alistair to trust her and be with Morrigan for just one night.

I keep hearing about LA Noire. The dialogues in that game were gameplay, too, and allowing you to skip the fights was a GREAT call there, because the real unique, fun part of the game involves questionning suspects and trying to interpret tells and decide who's telling the truth and who's lying. That is not "interactive movie." That is gameplay. I, the player, am influencing how the main character interacts with the world around him. That is immersive, interactive storytelling, and no different from combat as far as the defintion of gameplay is.

It might be harder to "win" and "lose" than a simple "your HP is zero, you die" condition, but the option for win or loss is still there. If you're trying to let Anders know that you trust and support him, and you stick your foot in your mouth and he takes something badly (NOT through the fault of paraphrasing), isn't that a "lose?" What about when you successfully break through Isabela's boundaries and make her realize that she considers you a true friend who she is loyal to -- THROUGH the relationship path you've taken and by constantly supporting her and understanding how she thinks? Isn't that just as valueable and worthwhile a gameplay experience to someone as gibbleting a parachuting goon? Isn't talking yourself onto the throne of Ferelden as great a victory in its own way as killing the High Dragon? It's just a little less binary.

It would be different if we were talking about a JRPG where you have no control over the narrative or relationships. I would still support the option, because I was a 14 year old girl getting into games once and I would have finished a lot more of them if I could just get right to the next cutscene. I wouldn't use it, these days, but I wouldn't spite anyone who did. All I'm saying is that if there wasn't a single combat in Dragon Age: Origins, it would STILL be a wildly different experience from a movie, because dialogue trees ARE gameplay. Roleplaying IS gameplay.

That's all.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 29 septembre 2011 - 03:35 .

[uberdowzen]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

Gameplay is of utmost importance, even in a story focused game. Think, a game like Metal Gear Solid probably has some of the best videogame plot out there, but it also had killer gameplay and revolutionary moments (specifically in MGS1).

DA2 had crap gameplay with its parachuting enemies. It also had crap story imo, but thats subjective. Someone above liked its story, but had to use Console commands to skip through the gameplay to see that story. That there, is bad game design.

What im saying is, gameplay and plot don't have to be unrelated, they can complement each other, which in turn makes better gameplay and better story than if they ignored each other.

What you seem to be missing is that Bioware games have gameplay aside from combat. Their stories are affected by every choice you make and that in itself can be compelling gameplay. Removing the combat from DA2 wouldn't turn it into a movie as there would still be enough interaction to define it as a video game.

[uberdowzen]

Sowtaaw wrote...

the whole skip combat is idiotic multiples ways to solve a problem is the best solution.

Agreed.

[KLUME777]

uberdowzen wrote...

House_Hlaalu wrote...

Gameplay is of utmost importance, even in a story focused game. Think, a game like Metal Gear Solid probably has some of the best videogame plot out there, but it also had killer gameplay and revolutionary moments (specifically in MGS1).

DA2 had crap gameplay with its parachuting enemies. It also had crap story imo, but thats subjective. Someone above liked its story, but had to use Console commands to skip through the gameplay to see that story. That there, is bad game design.

What im saying is, gameplay and plot don't have to be unrelated, they can complement each other, which in turn makes better gameplay and better story than if they ignored each other.

What you seem to be missing is that Bioware games have gameplay aside from combat. Their stories are affected by every choice you make and that in itself can be compelling gameplay. Removing the combat from DA2 wouldn't turn it into a movie as there would still be enough interaction to define it as a video game.

In DA2's case though, your choices barely changed anything by the end of the game.

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

These would be non-combat werewolf who spend their days moping around the house and whining about how they never get the girl.

Thought the writers were already displeased with how much Twilight-like they accidently made the cast...

[uberdowzen]

KLUME777 wrote...

In DA2's case though, your choices barely changed anything by the end of the game.

The plot could change just as much as Mass Effect's.

[Gotholhorakh]

House_Hlaalu wrote...



Im sorry, but shouldn't a person who is in the video game bussiness actually like videogames?

WHAT IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND PRECIOUS IN THE WORLD?

As for women and mothers not liking combat in games because, you know, women don't like fighting and busy people like their games short, I believe the correct response is "my arse".


Mind you.. if they'd had a button to skip DA2's combat so we could just get through the story and avoid the godawful combat... that probably would have been the most awesome button it could have had.

If you'll pardon the phrase.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 29 septembre 2011 - 09:00 .

[KLUME777]

uberdowzen wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

In DA2's case though, your choices barely changed anything by the end of the game.

The plot could change just as much as Mass Effect's.

Which is to say: not much.

Though ME has more of an illusion of choice.

[Foolsfolly]

KLUME777 wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

In DA2's case though, your choices barely changed anything by the end of the game.

The plot could change just as much as Mass Effect's.

Which is to say: not much.

Though ME has more of an illusion of choice.

The illusion of choice is all any game has. The choices branch as much as the game allows, the world reacts as much as the game allows, and all your dialogue is written for you you just pick what you say.

Video games are all about the illusion of choice. But there are levels, and yeah, Mass Effect has a higher level of illusion of choice than DA2. DA:O had a higher level than DA2. ME2 had a much higher level (since everyone can die and that alone will affect ME3 greatly) than DA2.

DA2 has some choices that matter and there are some things that are reactive to the player (board quests mainly, helping the nobles in Act 3 if you support the mages, and stuff like that). But none of the big important events offer the player any choice and even when you'd think there's a big choice that should be reflected in the gameplay or story... it doesn't.

I had a specific example near the end of the game but realized I was in the No Spoilers forum. Anyone who beat the game can think of the moment or one similar.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

David Gaider wrote...

I think, however, that to her (and to many people) what she loves most about RPG's is the story. I don't know that she dislikes combat per se-- she certainly seems to appreciate the importance it plays in heightening the tension of a story-- but I imagine she's not as big a fan of CRPG combat mechanics, especially when they frustrate her and keep her from getting to more of the story. I don't think that, speaking as a player, asking for the option to skip combat is a crime.

/signed

I tend to find combat in story-based RPGs as more of a roadblock than anything. Random encounters don't excite me, I'm the kind of player who wants to progress the story and combat doesn't always do that (unless, of course, the combat serves some point in the plot, like battling the archdemon, or Branka, or the showdown between the werewolves and Zathrian). I like combat where it's part of the story and not just 'filler content', and find it tedious, if not boring, if there's too much of it clogging up the route to my next bit of dialogue.

Note that if I'm playing a combat-based RPG, not a story-based RPG, my perspective is completely different. I can go monster hunting quite cheerfully and ignore just about all the dialogue in, for instance, Diablo II.

Wanting to bypass combat in a story-based RPG like Dragon Age isn't unusual, or wrong, or bad. It's just that some of us are far more interested in the story in a game like this, and combat is slowing it down! XD I love the challenge of combat in games like Diablo or Heroes of Might and Magic or Guild Wars, but in games with immersive stories I want to focus on the story.

This certainly does not mean that I, or anyone else who feels this way, doesn't like games. We just like parts of them more than others.

I'd probably never skip combat since I'd think beating a game that way wou'd be cheating in some obscure way, but it's not like Bioware games have a high scores table (that I know of. Do you guys rank us? o_O). And considering we can already skip dialogue, why not?

[spiritofretribution]

If Jennifer Hepler meant that you should have an option to avoid combat (using stealth, coercion or what-ever-else-BioWare-comes-up-with) then, yes, this I would like to see.

I would not buy DA3 if it had an option to skip through combat (runscript killallhostiles without it beeing a cheat), however it would be fine if it would be a feature exclusive to the casual dificulty.

[ejoslin]

I do wonder how many people who are shocked and appalled by the thought of a game writer wanting a button skipping combat hit esc to skip dialog and cutscenes. I remember hearing a lot of complaining about how much dialog there was in DAO when to me that was my absolute favorite part of the game and I wanted MOAR.

My point is that people prefer different things in a game. I personally think it's a good thing that a writer finds the story far more important and enjoyable than the combat. Just like I wouldn't care if the people designing combat and those encounters hit esc through the dialog and cutscenes.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 septembre 2011 - 10:42 .

[Maconbar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

In DA2's case though, your choices barely changed anything by the end of the game.

The plot could change just as much as Mass Effect's.

Which is to say: not much.

Though ME has more of an illusion of choice.

The illusion of choice is all any game has. The choices branch as much as the game allows, the world reacts as much as the game allows, and all your dialogue is written for you you just pick what you say.

Video games are all about the illusion of choice. But there are levels, and yeah, Mass Effect has a higher level of illusion of choice than DA2. DA:O had a higher level than DA2. ME2 had a much higher level (since everyone can die and that alone will affect ME3 greatly) than DA2.

DA2 has some choices that matter and there are some things that are reactive to the player (board quests mainly, helping the nobles in Act 3 if you support the mages, and stuff like that). But none of the big important events offer the player any choice and even when you'd think there's a big choice that should be reflected in the gameplay or story... it doesn't.

I had a specific example near the end of the game but realized I was in the No Spoilers forum. Anyone who beat the game can think of the moment or one similar.

If the deaths in ME2 impact ME3 greatly, as you suggest, doesn't that mean that there is actual choice and not just the illusion of choice?

[xkg]

^ exactly.
But seriously, Wth even is that "illusion of choices" - I guess it is when you are given some choices but the outcome is always the same.

Foolsfolly what you are talking about are choices with limited set of options.
Some real life example maybe: you are looking at some product. Now you have TWO choices - you can buy it or not. Is it only illusion of choice beacuse you are limited to two options ? NO, you can make REAL choice now . It is not any illusion or anything like that.

Modifié par xkg, 29 septembre 2011 - 11:35 .

[fightright2]

Since it's so divided. Perhaps the 'skip' button should appear once you failed the combat part 3 times.
For us that are just plain kickass, it wouldn't appear for us.
And for those that don't use it, then give them an achievement for it. That way it can motivate some to not use the skip button in order to get the achievement.



I wonder what the name of the achievement should be?

Tough Enough- Help? Who needs stinkin' help?

Modifié par fightright2, 29 septembre 2011 - 11:52 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

She's a writer. Who cares about her thoughts on gameplay.

[Gotholhorakh]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

She's a writer. Who cares about her thoughts on gameplay.

Well put. I can agree with this.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

She's a writer. Who cares about her thoughts on gameplay.

Well put. I can agree with this.

She's also a gamer. Why shouldn't she have an opinion on gameplay?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

She's a writer. Who cares about her thoughts on gameplay.

Well put. I can agree with this.

She's also a gamer. Why shouldn't she have an opinion on gameplay?

How does this affect you? She has no say on the gameplay side of Dragon Age, she writes. Her opinion on gameplay doesn't concern me, because she has no say in it.

Now if Mike Laidlaw came out and said this, then you could kick up a stink, and i'd be at your side.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:18 .

[Doveberry]

I don't get what the problem is. I like a challenge as much as the next person (happily played the Mass Effect games on Insanity), but I wouldn't mind a fast forward button sometimes. Combat is fun when it's interesting and challenging, but it actually stops being fun for me around the fourth or fifth playthrough. At this point I even fast-forward through a lot of the dialogue and just look more closely at the parts that I do enjoy. I don't see how the option to not have to go through killing a thousand husks for the umpteenth time could possibly be bad.