428 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

How does this affect you? She has no say on the gameplay side of Dragon Age, she writes. Her opinion on gameplay doesn't concern me, because she has no say in it.

Now if Mike Laidlaw came out and said this, then you could kick up a stink, and i'd be at your side.

It doesn't affect anyone. She was asked a question about what she would tell developers to put into a game to appeal to a wider audience, and she answered.

If Mike Laidlaw said the same thing, that wouldn't matter either because it's a hypothetical question, not a statement about how any game will change.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:30 .

[Yuqi]

Combat is fun,but I remember FFX being extremely annoying with its random encounters. I just wanted to get to mt gagazet,but I had so many random encounters it drove me crazy. I think the key thing is moderation in combat.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I honestly think the problem here is the restrictive game/level design and amount of forced combat in BioWare games. I mean, if you had a variety of means to avoid and bypass combat (stealth, use of terrain, disguises, magic, diplomacy, intimidation, etc etc), then you wouldn't need a "skip combat" or "skip game" button, you could simply build a character with the right skillset and ignore it altogether.

Another group of bandits in Lowtown got you down? Pay a pickpocket to distract them (ala Assassin's Creed) or better yet, get a party member to stealth in, steal their wallets and run off to a different area (leading the bandits away and leaving you 1 member down). What if you know the right alleyways to take, then do it and get past them. Or what if your whole party is Rogues? That's easy. You can just all sneak by them.

Know where the enemy is coming from? Got a Ranger character? Use traps and just walk past them, blowing kisses at their chumpy faces. You could also lure them in this way,.

Outfit your party with the right disguises and walk right past them (after an ambient skill check on Cunning), or talk them down using a variety of options such as diplomacy and intimidation (you can have a single conversation for each humanoid/reasonable enemy "type" then just re-use them or randomise it a bit with 2-3 conversations).

And so forth.

Combined with Mass Effect 2's XP system (for mission progress, not XP per kill) and checkpoints for certain achievements (killed x enemies, trapped x enemies, stole from x enemies, etc) which give you bonus XP and perks, I personally feel like it would be a very good system.

It would require a much better tutorial section than what was offered in Dragon Age 2 though and it would simply require fewer enemies, period. Much fewer, more powerful and more varied enemies.

Granted, these are pie in the sky aspirations (though many games already incorporate many if not most of these elements) but I feel like this desire for a "skip combat" button comes from a feeling of repetitive, restrictive and ultimately, poor gameplay. Simply put, if it was fun to play, you'd play it.

So, I feel like BioWare should simply work to improve the gameplay rather than excuse it.

I'm just afraid that giving this notion legitimacy would also legitimise the use of narrow corridor, stacked combat system that all BioWare games somewhat suffer from, but what Dragon Age 2 and to a lesser extent, Mass Effect 2, displays.

NPC Cutscene -> one way killing field -> NPC Cutscene -> one way killing field. That would make it much easier to design a "skip combat" function without breaking the game. Which would make more open ended gameplay impossible.

After all, how would you design a skip combat function if you had a quest to steal a relic from a 2 level mansion, with 3 different entrances and the ability to talk, fight, sneak or disguise your way inside, then get through the first level by using skills to go through hidden pathways, sneak past guards, fight the guards, use magic/diplomacy/intimidation/bribery on them, poison their drinks/food, use traps to keep them in place or by simply navigating the level well? Do you port to the next level? What if there was stuff you wanted to do? Enemies all die? But what if you wanted to get past them through intimidation? or Stealth? Not to mention the imbalancing of pacing.

Not like that's going to happen in a Dragon Age game anytime soon, or ever. But the notion of a skip combat function pretty much makes that sort of gameplay impossible, not just unlikely. Unless we get to a "skip section" function altogether. Which I admit would be logically more consistent and feasible but with cheat codes, trainers and the like are enough imo.

As for Mrs. Hepler having that opinion, I don't mind her having it, I don't see why it's "disturbing" or whatever for her to have it. I just happen to disagree with it is all.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 29 septembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[fightright2]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

She's a writer. Who cares about her thoughts on gameplay.

Well put. I can agree with this.

She's also a gamer. Why shouldn't she have an opinion on gameplay?

I think it's important to note that the whole article needs to be taken into account and not just the part that the OP showed in order to answer that question. Article source

What is your least favorite thing about working in the industry?
Playing the games. This is probably a terrible thing to admit, but it
has definitely been the single most difficult thing for me. I came into
the job out of a love of writing, not a love of playing games. While I
enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good
story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it. Similarly,
I'm really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly
-- I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don't like tactics, I don't
like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory, and I can't read
a game map to save my life. This makes it very difficult for me to play
to the myriad games I really should be keeping up on as our
competition.
And with a baby on the way in a few months, my minimal free time
(which makes it impossible for me to finish a big RPG in less than six
months already), will disappear entirely. If there was a fast-forward
feature on games which would let me easily review the writing and
stories and skip the features that I find more frustrating than fun, I'd
find it much easier to keep abreast of what's happening in the field.


Do you consider yourself a hardcore gamer? How many hours a week do you get to play (besides the title you are working on)?

As I've mentioned before, God no. I'll usually play a few hours on the weekend, but not much beyond that unless I'm really pushing myself.
To me, sitting at a computer will always feel like work, so it's not something I tend to do on my own time.

Obviously, she doesn't consider herself to be a video gamer. She's a writer first and foremost that happens to write the storyline for games.
Not a gamer first and foremost that happens to have writing skills to contribute writing for games.

To me, it sounds like she prefers the pencil and paper gameplay over video games according to the article. But since she loves storylines, it's not a far stretch to see why she decided to write for video games.

She writes, she gets paid for it. What's not to like?

But what I see is that though she doesn't like the gaming experience beyond the storyline of it, she is proposing a fast forward 'skip' button so she can play it as a means to do her job which entails having to review a game and keeping abreast of what's happening in the field.

Do you have any advice for anyone who would like to get into the industry?

.......[/b]On the other hand, make sure you know what's out there in terms of
games; you don't have to be the biggest gamer in the world to be a great
game writers, but you need to understand game fans and what they like
in their gaming experiences.

Now I think the last question is debatable. I personally don't think she has to be a hardcore gamer in the sense that she must love ALL aspects of gameplay, more notably, the fighting.

I think she does what she must in order to do her job which is writing. And if there was a 'skip' button, then it would help her accomplish that as a writer and as a working mother. The statement of putting a fast-forward 'skip' button is just on her part of making her job easier to do.

Again, she is a writer first and foremost that loves storylines in gameplay but happens to be in love with the pencil and paper games she was introduced to. And since she understands that part she can write for video games but pretty much leaves the 'hard' part of fighting in games to her husband to get her through the game so she can get to the part that she loves, which is the storyline itself, and not the entirety of the game.

I see her as writer who likes storylines in games but truely, she is not a VIDEO gamer.


But then again, this article/review is five years old in which she had only been in the video game industry for two years at the time.

[b]How long have you been working in the industry?
If you count the paper-and-pencil experience, I've been designing games since 1997. Otherwise, about two years now.

It would be nice to know if she still has the same opinion now as she did then?

Modifié par fightright2, 29 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Bioware writers speak to much. I wonder where are all the game designers, afraid of haters maybe? Though maybe writers can relax after they done with writing, while coders continue to fix all that crap in patches ect.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Chris Avellone: "I would even argue that.. having a strong story line in RPG is absolutely secondary.. <> It's the game system, it's allowing the player to develop, adds a lot of choices and consiquences in RPG, and.. most players will form strong narratives themselves based on the actions occured in the game.. it have nothing to do with NPC they talk to, or big WOW moment you threw on them, they don't care.. what they care is that 3d level dwarf who was able to fought twenty orks in the corner with a ball pein hammer, and that's the story which gets them exited, that's they story they tell, cause they were able to pull it off with their character build and game mechanics, and I totally respect that and I'm fine.. I'll still try and do a good story, but chances are YOUR experience is gonna trump everything I'm gonna trhow at you, and I'm totally fine with that"

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

JohnEpler wrote...
One example that springs to mind, for me, was Vampire : The Masquare : Bloodlines. The best parts of that game were interacting with the characters - the social side of things.

Well, do a game with interaction as good as in Bloodlines. It was great because WoD ruleset was so cool and had so many options to develop different characters. Why so Hawke?

[fightright2]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Bioware writers speak to much. I wonder where are all the game designers, afraid of haters maybe? Though maybe writers can relax after they done with writing, while coders continue to fix all that crap in patches ect.

Not necessarily. Take DA2 into consideration on how many fans didn't enjoy (and still criticize) the storyline in the game. Really, not only did the storyline got heavily chastized but even the dialogue as well.

That I think puts a lot of workload on the writers to improve the game by perhaps easing the faults of the storyline(s) of any future DLC. Or else, it will get torn apart for not doing so.

I think fans can and have plenty of times, griped about bugs in the games but once coders fix it and make patches, the fans are okay with it. Especially, if caught fast enough. Fans can play more playthroughs with it fixed years down the road.

But a faulty storyline. That can't be easily fixed. And who would want to play a game that is reviewed to have a terrible storyline? That really is damaging for a game in the industry as we've already seen.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

fightright2 , maybe you'r right of course, but how would a dungeon crawler and kasumi for Dragon Age would fix Meredith and her large glowing red sword?

[fightright2]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Chris Avellone: "I would even argue that.. having a strong story line in RPG is absolutely secondary.. <> It's the game system, it's allowing the player to develop, adds a lot of choices and consiquences in RPG, and.. most players will form strong narratives themselves based on the actions occured in the game.. it have nothing to do with NPC they talk to, or big WOW moment you threw on them, they don't care.. what they care is that 3d level dwarf who was able to fought twenty orks in the corner with a ball pein hammer, and that's the story which gets them exited, that's they story they tell, cause they were able to pull it off with their character build and game mechanics, and I totally respect that and I'm fine.. I'll still try and do a good story, but chances are YOUR experience is gonna trump everything I'm gonna trhow at you, and I'm totally fine with that"

Not for games like DAO, the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games. Sometimes little choices you make when you talk to some NPCs makes a big difference to the point it changes the outcomes. Those games are built to have consequences to your choices. DA2...eh, not much so.

[rabbitor]

Too much credit for Bethesda's trekking simulators.

[fightright2]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

fightright2 , maybe you'r right of course, but how would a dungeon crawler and kasumi for Dragon Age would fix Meredith and her large glowing red sword?

You got me there. I don't think it would fix it. But certainly adding perhaps a fun DLC to the game would ease it for some. Not so much for the non-core fans of DA2 that have played ME games. They might not care for it since they already know what to expect.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

fightright2 wrote...
and Fallout games..

Actually, in Fallout there was a lot of player-made-by-narrative, and face it, a lot of interesting and WOW moments actually came partially from, if not completely, from inbuild system (science, medicine, repair skills, Perks, and all that..)

P.S. I mean Fallout 1&2 of course.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:38 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

fightright2 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Chris Avellone: "I would even argue that.. having a strong story line in RPG is absolutely secondary.. <> It's the game system, it's allowing the player to develop, adds a lot of choices and consiquences in RPG, and.. most players will form strong narratives themselves based on the actions occured in the game.. it have nothing to do with NPC they talk to, or big WOW moment you threw on them, they don't care.. what they care is that 3d level dwarf who was able to fought twenty orks in the corner with a ball pein hammer, and that's the story which gets them exited, that's they story they tell, cause they were able to pull it off with their character build and game mechanics, and I totally respect that and I'm fine.. I'll still try and do a good story, but chances are YOUR experience is gonna trump everything I'm gonna trhow at you, and I'm totally fine with that"

Not for games like DAO, the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games. Sometimes little choices you make when you talk to some NPCs makes a big difference to the point it changes the outcomes. Those games are built to have consequences to your choices. DA2...eh, not much so.

What MCA is actually saying is that the most important aspect of storytelling in an RPG is how the game systems and narrative interaction (C&C) from the player works together to create a unique experience. The actual story is important, but if it's scripted to go in only one way, if you as a player can't feel like you can impart the will of different characters (in personality and in skillset/build) and come up with different and perhaps unique experiences, than the story is never going to be that engaging from a roleplaying perspective.

[Grumpy young man]

Seeing the thread title I presumed OP read Cupcakes.

[tmp7704]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Chris Avellone: "I would even argue that.. having a strong story line in RPG is absolutely secondary.. <> It's the game system, it's allowing the player to develop, adds a lot of choices and consiquences in RPG

Funny, but i always thought the choices and consequences were actually part of the strong story line.

If this is just in the context of character builds... i'd argue that the current trend is to actually remove all consequences from making this sort of choices, because when you have consequences in this area the players get all upset and start yelling that you force them in specific builds to be viable. See the non-combat skills of DAO and the ME alignment system for examples of that.

what they care is that 3d level dwarf who was able to fought twenty orks in the corner with a ball pein hammer, and that's the story which gets them exited, that's they story they tell, cause they were able to pull it off with their character build and game mechanics, and I totally respect that and I'm fine..

Think DA2 made a solid work at proving this false -- at least personally, i found the "4 vs 4 waves of 20" silly to begin with, and it went down from there, through 'absolutely meaningless' and to 'irritating' by the time i had to clear the town at night all over again around act 2 or so.

It can be more valuable experience in sandbox environments, where such experiences might be a result of player's own actions. But in the games where it's fixed sequences of cutscenes and fights thrown at you whether you like it or not... well.

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 septembre 2011 - 03:47 .

[Sidney]

skyhawk02 wrote...

I wanted to put my two cents in and say that I am a male gamer who finds the most boring part of videogames to be the combat. I love the dialogue and btw dialogue in a video game is not the same as watching a movie because in a game you are choosing how to respond to what other people say.

However I think that a button to skip the combat is going a little too far in the other direction, but it would be nice if there was a way to talk my way out fights, or avoid most fights without breaking the immersion. I thought Dragon Age 2 did a good job of at least making fights more interesting to watch with improved animations but there was still too much fighting overall. (I am sure lots of people disagree with me however, for valid reasons of their own.)

A skip the combat button doesn't bother me. Don't like it don't use it.

I hate boss battles in most games which are more an exercise in patience and repetition than tactics anyways. I hated the Boss in Legacy for being a terrible fight not because it was hard to figure out what to do but for making the game do it via the controls provided. If I could skip that fight I'd do it it 9 times outta 10. Same with the first, especially, boss in DX who is stupid and mindless.

[tmp7704]

mrcrusty wrote...

After all, how would you design a skip combat function if you had a quest to steal a relic from a 2 level mansion, with 3 different entrances and the ability to talk, fight, sneak or disguise your way inside, then get through the first level by using skills to go through hidden pathways, sneak past guards, fight the guards, use magic/diplomacy/intimidation/bribery on them, poison their drinks/food, use traps to keep them in place or by simply navigating the level well? Do you port to the next level? What if there was stuff you wanted to do? Enemies all die? But what if you wanted to get past them through intimidation? or Stealth?

The way killallhostiles script currently work is pretty decent at it -- just tie it to a button. Then when you click a button, creatures in vicinity currently hostile to the player's team keel over. You can still walk around and do stuff afterwards. You want to use the intimidation or stealth instead? Well, don't press the button.

Not to mention the imbalancing of pacing.

Skipping stuff makes things proceed faster. That's not "imbalance", that's large part of why we may choose to skip things to begin with.

[eternalnightmare13]

First off, don't they make a 'casual/easy' setting for this very reason?!  Secondly, I know plenty of female gamers who enjoy the combat in games just as much as guys. 

If  they think female gamers want something with no combat, just dialogue/story then they should develop a seperate product - interactive 'choose your own adventure' stories that's entirely story with no combat or at least combat that's only cutscenes.

Trying to make games that appeal to everyone is as bad an idea as cafeteria food.  Cafeterias in college when I went tried to appeal to all lifestyles/personal taste and ended up being half assed and not really appealling to anyone. 

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

A skip the combat button doesn't bother me. Don't like it don't use it.

Lol, the f***? What happened with the spirit of gaming, of beating the game and feeling good about it?

<...>

I think one is for sure with *that* quote - Bioware still has a lot of job to do to make combat good in their games. That good that ms. (mrs.?) Hepler would't like to skip it.

[tmp7704]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Lol, the f***? What happened with the spirit of gaming, of beating the game and feeling good about it?

Died at some point in the 90's when the developers figured out the games aren't their personal contest with the person who play their precioussss, and that people generally enjoy the games more when they can see as much of them as they want.

[happy_daiz]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Secondly, I know plenty of female gamers who enjoy the combat in games just as much as guys. 

Count me as one of them. 

[Herr Uhl]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

A skip the combat button doesn't bother me. Don't like it don't use it.

Lol, the f***? What happened with the spirit of gaming, of beating the game and feeling good about it?

<...>

I think one is for sure with *that* quote - Bioware still has a lot of job to do to make combat good in their games. That good that ms. (mrs.?) Hepler would't like to skip it.

You can still have a good feeling about beating the game on the highest difficulty. Or do you feel the same good feeling from beating a game at very easy as at very hard?

Edit: Or are you just saying that she is doing it wrong?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Chris Avellone: "I would even argue that.. having a strong story line in RPG is absolutely secondary.. <> It's the game system, it's allowing the player to develop, adds a lot of choices and consiquences in RPG, and.. most players will form strong narratives themselves based on the actions occured in the game.. it have nothing to do with NPC they talk to, or big WOW moment you threw on them, they don't care.. what they care is that 3d level dwarf who was able to fought twenty orks in the corner with a ball pein hammer, and that's the story which gets them exited, that's they story they tell, cause they were able to pull it off with their character build and game mechanics, and I totally respect that and I'm fine.. I'll still try and do a good story, but chances are YOUR experience is gonna trump everything I'm gonna trhow at you, and I'm totally fine with that"

Avellone is correctly identifying the difference between the authored narrative and the emergent narrative, and he's giving the emergent narrative greater importance.

I completely agree.