428 réponses à ce sujet

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

I think I'm seeing a trend here that would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

This shouldn't need to be said, but apparently it is.

In game achievements are NOT real achievements.

Beating a video game is not a valid point of pride, purpose, or props. Having the time to sit on your ass for 40+ hours and unlock in-game badges does not make you bigger, badder, smarter, or better than the next guy.

If your objection to Ms. Helper's suggestion is because you somehow feel it denies you a sense "of beating the game and feeling good about it" then stop gaming at once. If it bothers you because you feel it will somehow water down your victory in beating a given title you have a problem.

Go out and get a life. Earn yourself a few RL achievements. RL achievements are the ones that matter. Once you've done that... once you've learned to take real pride in real achievements... come on back and relax with us while we play some games.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:24 .

[roundcrow]

I insist going forward that all quotes from developers are accompanied by a picture of said developer. In the interests of fairness.

[xkg]

@UrkOfGreyhawk Very well said. These so called "unlockable achievements" are consoles' era BS.
Never cared for them - did I unlock 1 or maybe all of them - or just maybe none - I really don't give a damn about that.

Give the players freedom of how to play their games. This is where all the fun is not some lame achievements.

Modifié par xkg, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:27 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

I think I'm seeing a trend here that would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

This shouldn't need to be said, but apparently it is.

In game achievements are NOT real achievements.

Beating a video game is not a valid point of pride, purpose, or props. Having the time to sit on your ass for 40+ hours and unlock in-game badges does not make you bigger, badder, smarter, or better than the next guy.

If your objection to Ms. Helper's suggestion is because you somehow feel it denies you a sense "of beating the game and feeling good about it" then stop gaming at once. If it bothers you because you feel it will somehow water down your victory in beating a given title you have a problem.

Go out and get a life. Earn yourself a few RL achievements. RL achievements are the ones that matter. Once you've done that... once you've learned to take real pride in real achievements... come on back and relax with us while we play some games.

Lot of crap. Being better than someone is one of the most natural reasons to play games. That's why most of the games have winning/losing and demand intellectual/physical prowess at the same time.

If you don't need any ability to beat the game, whatever it is, it's either a kid's game or garbage.

Heck, even stories (good ones, not DA2) require intellectual prowess to grasp them right and/or completely. So if we, say, don't put any need to do something or be someone in game.. we're just doing *nothing*. And hey, I can do *nothing* without games anyway.

Edit.: And what the hell is wrong with people like that, who play scareful psychologists, persuading anyone who want's some intellectual challenge from their games that they are freaks and psychos? Jesus Christ.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:47 .

[darkshadow136]

Anyone that feels that way about video games, should not be involved in the creation of games. What makes a game is not just the story. A game requires combat, gameplay, graphics, immersion through a open world and so on. What's the purpose for a game you can just fast forward to the end on, or shorten the gameplay to move past the blood and gore of combat. Oh yeah I will pay $60.00 or more for that, NOT.

[xkg]

^
Have you ever heard about games like Sim City, The Sims, or PnC Adventure Games ? No you probably didn't so for your information there is no combat in those games at all an they are ... still games.

Modifié par xkg, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:51 .

[CHawk15]

I don't agree with the concept of a "skip combat" button, for me personally, that defeats the purpose of playing the game because enjoyment for me is just as much about gameplay and story. That being said, I can see where she is coming from, I think the better solution is to give the player multiple options on how to deal with problems (like Deus Ex HR). You could build your powers of persuation for example and the game could be set up such that you can talk your way out of a majority of the fighting. I don't believe games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age could be set up to avoid combat altogether because of the setting. The key is to give players an equal reward for dealing with a conflict, either by combat, stealth or words.

As far as skipping combat goes, that's what the Casual difficulty level is for in my opinion.But I wonder how much of a market exists for creating something like an "interactive movie" that runs on a game console ? It might be a way to significantly expand the customer base.

Modifié par CHawk15, 29 septembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[Maconbar]

tmp7704 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Lol, the f***? What happened with the spirit of gaming, of beating the game and feeling good about it?

Died at some point in the 90's when the developers figured out the games aren't their personal contest with the person who play their precioussss, and that people generally enjoy the games more when they can see as much of them as they want.

No kidding. I laugh whenever I see a post that starts something like this, "I just beat DA:2 and _____."

[Sylvius the Mad]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Anyone that feels that way about video games, should not be involved in the creation of games.

I really like Jennifer's approach to writing.  She has a very analytical view of personality, and I think that's valuable.  I think she has important lessons to teach other designers on topics such as character coherence.

[SgtElias]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Anyone that feels that way about video games, should not be involved in the creation of games. What makes a game is not just the story. A game requires combat, gameplay, graphics, immersion through a open world and so on. What's the purpose for a game you can just fast forward to the end on, or shorten the gameplay to move past the blood and gore of combat.

And yet I wonder how many people skip through dialoge and cutscenes (in my opinion the 100% most important part of the game, ever) to get to "the gameplay."

I cannot for the life of me understand why everyone is so upset. It's not like you'd have to play your game any differently; you'd still be able to bash, slash, cut, parry, slice, dice, maim and kill your way through as many enemies as your heart desired. What does it matter if some guy on the other side of the world hit "skip combat" every once in awhile when he wanted to get something completed?

I love RPGs, a lot, and I love Bioware RPGs in particular. But as much as I love them, I remember being eight months pregnant, sitting on a cold, hard floor (without the money to buy chairs!) at three in the morning, having to be up in four hours to go to work the next day, fighting my way through the Deep Roads trying to reach Branka because I was desperate to find out what would happen, and I would have really appreciated a "skip combat" button right then.

I wouldn't normally use it, true; but some people would, and it's not up to me to decide how other people play their games.

I think Jennifer Hepler is an awesome, talented writer, who espressed an opinion. She is not "Jennifer Hepler: Queen Bee Supreme of All Things Dragon Age!" She did not issue an offical proclamation that all furture tites were cutting combat and would now become "Heavy Rain" (great game, by the way!). She expressed her opinion, half a decade ago, and I sorta think we need to all sorta back up off of her grill.

/ soapbox

A quick note: this wasn't directed at you, specifically, darkshadow136, except for the first sentance. Just wanted you to know I wasn't calling you out individually.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I cannot for the life of me understand why everyone is so upset.

Because there never actually *was* any decent gameplay in Bioware RPGs aside from combat. Though many old school gamers would claim that even that never was was that good. So ms. Hepler's comment was really out of place, because, well, it can be viewed as she does't like Bioware RPG's at all.

And that's an interesting one for me, really. Like when Stanley Woo claims that their games are about "great story", while so many Bioware RPGs were combat-heavy tabletop simulators with borrowed tabletop mechanics.. and now there's even *more* (filler combat, and Mass Effect is a shooter, and we still are "about story" even if there are no persuasion or social or stealth skills in the games.. wtf I just don't get it.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[Maconbar]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Anyone that feels that way about video games, should not be involved in the creation of games. What makes a game is not just the story. A game requires combat, gameplay, graphics, immersion through a open world and so on. What's the purpose for a game you can just fast forward to the end on, or shorten the gameplay to move past the blood and gore of combat. Oh yeah I will pay $60.00 or more for that, NOT.

Clearly Heppler's work ruined DA:O.

[JPadinhaT]

Taken completely out of context.

Also, the story is sometimes what has kept me going in some games, not the gameplay.

[SgtElias]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Because there never actually *was* any decent gameplay in Bioware RPGs aside from combat. Though many old school gamers would claim that even that never was was that good. So ms. Hepler's comment was really out of place, because, well, it can be viewed as she does't like Bioware RPG's at all.

Wait.

A couple of pages back (somewhere), wasn't there a general complaint that the only good part of Bioware RPGs was the story? And all those people had had to suffer through sub-par combat for the past few years to get at the story?

I didn't pay attention to who was part of that discussion, but it seems to me that what you're saying is completely the opposite, implying that everyone has . . . their own opinions? Like Jennifer Hepler!

 . . . coincidence?

I kid, I kid.

I understand the concern that a part of a game you love will be changed. But that doesn't seem to be the case here; she isn't, individually, in a position to drastically change huge aspects of Dragon Age, as far as I can tell. She might be in a position to drastically change components of the story, but I doubt she can walk up to the art designers, for example, and say, "You know what, guys? Great job, but I'm tired of having elves in this game. Let's replace them with goblins. Have at it! I expect you to show your best work!"

She just expressed her opinion, is all, quite awhile ago, and I just feel that she's taking a lot of flak for it unnecessarilly.

Modifié par SgtElias, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Meltemph]

Sounds like she is more a fan of adventure games like Monkey Island or Full Throttle and the like. Nothing wrong with that, and doesn't mean she doesn't like gameplay. It means she isn't a fan of combat based gameplay, by the sounds of it. I loved those games, and would be cool to see a large return of them... little bit of an over reaction to someone who isnt a fan of combat I think.

Now if she said "all I like is the story aspect" then I could understand.

[Doveberry]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Anyone that feels that way about video games, should not be involved in the creation of games. What makes a game is not just the story. A game requires combat, gameplay, graphics, immersion through a open world and so on. What's the purpose for a game you can just fast forward to the end on, or shorten the gameplay to move past the blood and gore of combat. Oh yeah I will pay $60.00 or more for that, NOT.

You really haven't grasped the fact that people play different parts in creating a game, have you? She is a WRITER. And a good one, too. There are other people on Bioware's staff that handle the other things.
Also, not every person wants an open world. I certainly don't, since that tends to mean lack of story. I get my immersion from engaging storytelling, not endless areas filled with nothing.

Modifié par Doveberry, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:16 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

A couple of pages back (somewhere), wasn't there a general complaint that the only good part of Bioware RPGs was the story?

Story is't a game mechanics element. If we're talking about story exactly, not plot.

[DEL-WE-NO]

I lost hope in Bioware.....

[stragonar]

Take the challenge out of a game and it's not a game anymore. If you want to implement the option skipping combat, fine...but at least replace it with another challenge, so that the concept of gameplay still exists. This way those who wish to only sometimes skip combat would still feel immersed and challenged. A lot of rpgs are famous for minigames that can be played aside from story and combat, maybe having the mingame option to replace combat would appeal to these people?

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

I think I'm seeing a trend here that would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

This shouldn't need to be said, but apparently it is.

In game achievements are NOT real achievements.

Beating a video game is not a valid point of pride, purpose, or props. Having the time to sit on your ass for 40+ hours and unlock in-game badges does not make you bigger, badder, smarter, or better than the next guy.

If your objection to Ms. Helper's suggestion is because you somehow feel it denies you a sense "of beating the game and feeling good about it" then stop gaming at once. If it bothers you because you feel it will somehow water down your victory in beating a given title you have a problem.

Go out and get a life. Earn yourself a few RL achievements. RL achievements are the ones that matter. Once you've done that... once you've learned to take real pride in real achievements... come on back and relax with us while we play some games.

Lot of crap. Being better than someone is one of the most natural reasons to play games. That's why most of the games have winning/losing and demand intellectual/physical prowess at the same time.

If you don't need any ability to beat the game, whatever it is, it's either a kid's game or garbage.

Heck, even stories (good ones, not DA2) require intellectual prowess to grasp them right and/or completely. So if we, say, don't put any need to do something or be someone in game.. we're just doing *nothing*. And hey, I
can do *nothing* without games anyway.

Edit.: And what the hell is wrong with people like that, who play scareful psychologists, persuading anyone who want's some intellectual challenge from their games that they are freaks and psychos? Jesus Christ.

Way to miss the point there, son. Kick that straw man's ass!

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:50 .

[SgtElias]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

A couple of pages back (somewhere), wasn't there a general complaint that the only good part of Bioware RPGs was the story?

Story is't a game mechanics element. If we're talking about story exactly, not plot.

Sigh.

My point was just that even if she held the opinion that all combat-based gameplay was bad, forever, and she wanted to turn Dragon Age into a dating sim, she's (I believe) not in a position to get it done.

So the angry panicing is all for naught.

Also, that she's entitled to her opinion. By all means, everyone can be upset that her opionion doesn't resemble their own; I'm guilty of that sometimes, too. But I, personally, cannot understand it. And she does have the right to say it, without everyone trying to burn her as a witch.

[tmp7704]

stragonar wrote...

Take the challenge out of a game and it's not a game anymore.

Next up: "what's an RPG".

[Mr.House]

I really don't see the issue about this. The strong point of Bioware is there characters, this is a writer, not a gameplay person. If she said she hated writing then I would be concern but it's a writer not caring about gameplay. Hyperbole BSN, oh how I love you.

[Mr.House]

DEL-WE-NO wrote...

I lost hope in Bioware.....

Youy lost hope in Bioware because a WRITER said they don't care about GAMEPLAY. Sometimes this site really makes me pitty this race.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Way to miss the point there, son. Kick that straw man's ass!

There was't anything there anyway, dad, just some rambling of an old man completely oblivious to passions of the yonger. Here's hot chocolate for you.

My point was just that even if she held the opinion that all combat-based gameplay was bad, forever, and she wanted to turn Dragon Age into a dating sim, she's (I believe) not in a position to get it done.

If i'd abhore combat, I would write for adventure games.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:50 .