428 réponses à ce sujet

[Centauri2002]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

Avelone and Kojima were the writers for there games as well.

But the writer in the original post is not in charge of the product. Therein lies the difference.

I'm not entirely sure how you see a story in terms of a game. For me, a story must be there before the gameplay ever comes into existence. You can have an idea what kind of features you want in a game but everything should work off of the story itself. So you feel like you're playing the story.

As such, the gameplay should be adapted to the story and not the other way around. So, in essence, those in charge of combat and gameplay features should really enjoy the story, not the other way around. If you try to do it in reverse, that's when you start getting shoddy writing and huge plotholes.

[Maconbar]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

House_Hlaalu wrote...

Gameplay is of utmost importance, even in a story focused game. Think, a game like Metal Gear Solid probably has some of the best videogame plot out there, but it also had killer gameplay and revolutionary moments (specifically in MGS1).

DA2 had crap gameplay with its parachuting enemies. It also had crap story imo, but thats subjective. Someone above liked its story, but had to use Console commands to skip through the gameplay to see that story. That there, is bad game design.

What im saying is, gameplay and plot don't have to be unrelated, they can complement each other, which in turn makes better gameplay and better story than if they ignored each other.

I agree, quality gameplay and story make for an excellent game. But I see them as being equally important. Games have surpassed being simply about shooting a pixel from the lower portion of the screen to a group of pixels at the top. 

But, I don't think a writer needs to enjoy all aspects of gameplay to write a good story for that game. Any writer worth their salt will be able to write well regardless of the subject matter. We'd all be pretty limited if we could only write what we truly loved. Yes, it might turn out better if there's passion behind those words but just because a writer doesn't like the gameplay, doesn't mean they hate the game's story and lore.

Yes, but if your writer doesn't like gameplay, how can they complement each other. The writer must like gameplay.

It's one member of the writing team. Maybe if D. Gaider (the writing lead) said the he hated the game play of DA:0 and DA:2 then I would be concerned.
 
What decisions did Heppler make that you disagree with?

[House_Hlaalu]

D00m580 wrote...

House_Hlaalu wrote...


Yes, but if your writer doesn't like gameplay, how can they complement each other. The writer must like gameplay.

Do you like editing images? From what you said earlyer It's clear you don't, a competent forumite must be able to edit images. See, it works both ways. What she must and must not like is not for you or any of us to decide.

It does work both ways. I don't like editing images. So then everyone complained about the rude comment, because i don't like editing images. If i liked editing images, and edited the image, then no one woul'd have complained about the comment. So if i liked editing images, it would have made the thread better.

[Centauri2002]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

It does work both ways. I don't like editing images. So then everyone complained about the rude comment, because i don't like editing images. If i liked editing images, and edited the image, then no one woul'd have complained about the comment. So if i liked editing images, it would have made the thread better.

Nope, the thread would still be rather pointless.

[House_Hlaalu]

centauri2002 wrote...

House_Hlaalu wrote...

Avelone and Kojima were the writers for there games as well.

But the writer in the original post is not in charge of the product. Therein lies the difference.

I'm not entirely sure how you see a story in terms of a game. For me, a story must be there before the gameplay ever comes into existence. You can have an idea what kind of features you want in a game but everything should work off of the story itself. So you feel like you're playing the story.

As such, the gameplay should be adapted to the story and not the other way around. So, in essence, those in charge of combat and gameplay features should really enjoy the story, not the other way around. If you try to do it in reverse, that's when you start getting shoddy writing and huge plotholes.

See this post i made:

I think people who make games should like games. I dislike
the direction games are taking towards cinamatics and movies. 10 years
ago i doubt there would be many people like Heppler who dislikes
gameplay who makes games. What a surprise, games were a lot more like
games 10 years ago and less like movies with cinematics, yet they still
had killer stories.

TLDR: game makers who don't like gameplay are a cancer on the gameindustry.


And before people start accusing me of making remarks at specific
people, im talking in the broad range. Games like LA Noire are just
terrible, because its like the gamemakers were ashamed of the game being
a game, and wanted people to skip the gameplay, because they just
wanted to have a movie using a games engine and graphics.

And they both should work in unison, not one over the other. Not story over gameplay, but both equal.

Also, i think some of the best games out there are when the Lead was also the writer for the game.

[Maconbar]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

D00m580 wrote...

House_Hlaalu wrote...


Yes, but if your writer doesn't like gameplay, how can they complement each other. The writer must like gameplay.

Do you like editing images? From what you said earlyer It's clear you don't, a competent forumite must be able to edit images. See, it works both ways. What she must and must not like is not for you or any of us to decide.

It does work both ways. I don't like editing images. So then everyone complained about the rude comment, because i don't like editing images. If i liked editing images, and edited the image, then no one woul'd have complained about the comment. So if i liked editing images, it would have made the thread better.

But if it was someone else's job to do the editing, how would your dislike matter?

[House_Hlaalu]

centauri2002 wrote...

House_Hlaalu wrote...

It does work both ways. I don't like editing images. So then everyone complained about the rude comment, because i don't like editing images. If i liked editing images, and edited the image, then no one woul'd have complained about the comment. So if i liked editing images, it would have made the thread better.

Nope, the thread would still be rather pointless.

Whats better, a pointless thread (in your opinion) with a rude comment, or just a pointless thread (in your opinion)?

[Centauri2002]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

And they both should work in unison, not one over the other. Not story over gameplay, but both equal.

Also, i think some of the best games out there are when the Lead was also the writer for the game.

I think that statement could do with a little research. Say, look up good (which is subjective in itself) games and correlate the position of the writers on the team. Although, it's been pointed out that the aforementioned writer was but one writer on a whole team of writers. It would be very unreasonable to blame poor gameplay or a poor game on a single writer's dislike of combat. It is also unsubstantiated. 

Edited to add: I wasn't being rude, merely leaving yet another pointless opinion.

Modifié par centauri2002, 26 septembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Omega Torsk]

happy_daiz wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Fighting presents the challenge! If you remove that, then... what is the point?

With no fighting, I believe that = an adventure game, yes?

Well, yeah but even in an adventure game, there's a challenge. Like puzzles and whatnot. It's akin to saying "I don't have time to figure this puzzle out, Imma just FF through it."

[Centauri2002]

Omega Torsk wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Fighting presents the challenge! If you remove that, then... what is the point?

With no fighting, I believe that = an adventure game, yes?

Well, yeah but even in an adventure game, there's a challenge. Like puzzles and whatnot. It's akin to saying "I don't have time to figure this puzzle out, Imma just FF through it."

Virtual novels are considered games but there's no real gameplay in them. Not that I tend to like them, but that's beside the point.

[House_Hlaalu]

centauri2002 wrote...

Edited to add: I wasn't being rude, merely leaving yet another pointless opinion.

I meant about the big red writing on the OP image....

[House_Hlaalu]

centauri2002 wrote...


Virtual novels are considered games but there's no real gameplay in them. Not that I tend to like them, but that's beside the point.

No there not, theyre considered a virtual nevel.

[Centauri2002]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Edited to add: I wasn't being rude, merely leaving yet another pointless opinion.

I meant about the big red writing on the OP image....

Ah, the quoting threw me...

How about replying to the rest of my post now.

[House_Hlaalu]

centauri2002 wrote...


I think that statement could do with a little research. Say, look up good (which is subjective in itself) games and correlate the position of the writers on the team. Although, it's been pointed out that the aforementioned writer was but one writer on a whole team of writers. It would be very unreasonable to blame poor gameplay or a poor game on a single writer's dislike of combat. It is also unsubstantiated. 

Games that i can think of right now would be ones made by Avelone (not all of his) and Kojima.

EDIT: Also, going to bed now, its 4:45 am....

Modifié par House_Hlaalu, 26 septembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[happy_daiz]

Omega Torsk wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Fighting presents the challenge! If you remove that, then... what is the point?

With no fighting, I believe that = an adventure game, yes?

Well, yeah but even in an adventure game, there's a challenge. Like puzzles and whatnot. It's akin to saying "I don't have time to figure this puzzle out, Imma just FF through it."

I was just thinking back to games like Myst, Riven, Syberia...or really, anything by The Adventure Company. Most of them have at least somewhat of a story, and probably the same percentage are purely puzzle/plot-based with no fighting.

Really, all I was saying was that you don't have to like the gameplay of DA2, or any rpg-esque game, because of the fighting, but you may still like other types of games. Not much of a point, but there it is.

[Centauri2002]

House_Hlaalu wrote...

Games that i can think of right now would be ones made by Avelone (not all of his) and Kojima.

EDIT: Also, going to bed now, its 4:45 am....

Well I can think of a great deal more, and my above points still stand.

But... good night.

[Alicia Keys]

Sorry topic poster but I love the bioware games more for the story, characters, cut scenes, and character interaction. NOT THE GAMEPLAY!!!

[Maugrim]

I put over a thousand hours into DAO. I've put hundreds of hours into DA2. I enjoyed the combat the first and several dozen first times around. Now I'd like a skip button. Sorry bub but Helper didn't say anything worth getting worked up over in wishing for a combat skip button of some sort. The only thing objectionable was implying that it's something that only women or people with kids would want.   That's just silly all sorts of people would make use of it.

I suppose you'll be advocating for a removal of the skip button in dialogue right?  Because that's just as integral to Bioware's gameplay as anything else, to the point it's what Bioware is known for. No? Didn't think so.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 26 septembre 2011 - 06:53 .

[Dhiro]

...so? She's a writer, and a very good writer while we're at it, she doesn't need to like the combat. Besides, her point (that it is unfair that people can skip the dialogues she and the other people in the writing team worked hard to do and not the fighting bits) makes sense, at least for me.

Vanni127 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I happen to agree entirely with Jennifer's remarks, and I'd like to see BioWare implement them.

However, they appear to be moving in the opposite direction.

Why am I not surprised you agree with something that's against the very nature of videogames and fun? 

Seriously Sylvius...I know I'm feeding the immortal troll of these boards...but why are you even here anymore?

Combat isn't the only way to have fun in a video-game. Sylvius happens to like the other ways better, and there's nothing wrong about it. You're just  making yourself look mean, you know. :|

Modifié par Dhiro, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:04 .

[Deviija]

Newp. I often wish for a combat skip button so I can get into the meat of the game -- the actual story, choices, and characters. Fighting waves after waves of enemies with the same limited skill trees does little for my enjoyment. That's not to say I am without love for all things magic and medieval weaponry -- I am! I even have a collection of weaponry and a dozen books on ye olde warfare. But playing that in a game? Clicking skills, watching cooldowns, seeing the same animations for 30+ hours? Truly tiresome the first go around, let alone multiple replays.

I love DA:O like a proper obsessed fan, but lawdy you will not see me slogging through the game without Skip The Fade mod.

Edited to add: And Sylvius is not a troll.

Modifié par Deviija, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:09 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, I find the idea of fast-forwarding through combat a wee bit silly. I'm female, and I play for the story AND the combat. However, she's entitled to her opinion, especially since she's a writer and her job is, you know, writing. Her opinion has nothing to do with the whole entire company's approach to combat, and they obviously aren't exactly skimping on combat in ME3.

I really don't see how one writer's opinion about combat can possibly influence someone's decision about buying BW games. You know what? Why don't you start worrying if the team that actually works on COMBAT in the game suddenly decides that everyone should just fast-forward through combat. Bloody overreacting.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:09 .

[Relix28]

Wft is this? Why include a feature to skip past the very thing that makes videogame a videogame? It's idiotic. People that don't like the idea of gameplay in videogames shouldn't be playing videogames in the first place. They should buy themselves a blu-ray player and not an Xbox. If you are just in for the cutscenes in videogmes, it's also a huge waste of money. Think about it. You pay $60 for a new videogame, just so you can watch an hour of cutscenes. lolwut
How about you buy a $20 blu-ray movie of your choice and enjoy a much more compeling and better storytelling. And it's not like videogames are exactly known for their storytelling. Even BioWare games have very average stories compared to some of the movies out there.

And that comment about how women don't like action and violence in videogames. What about all the executions and killing that happens in the cutscenes? Cutscene violence is fine, but gameplay violence is not? This doesn't make any sense, or I'm really confused. I'm leaning more towards the former. Why would anyone that doesn't like violent videogames, play a game like DA2 for instance? Story? Yeah, right. How about don't buy and play something you don't like. Personally, I don't like sport simulations, so I don't go out and buy FIFA, NHL, NBA and NHL games, and rather spend my money on games I actually enjoy, like RPG's, fighting games and occasionally shooters. And that's really all there is to it.

Modifié par Relix28, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:40 .

[Stanley Woo]

Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vanni127 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I happen to agree entirely with Jennifer's remarks, and I'd like to see BioWare implement them.

However, they appear to be moving in the opposite direction.

Why am I not surprised you agree with something that's against the very nature of videogames and fun?

As Jennifer points out in her comments, modern games routinely let a player skip dialogue if that player has no interest in dialogue.

Why should combat be any different?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 26 septembre 2011 - 08:15 .

[Luckywallace]

Meh, I can see the point. I wouldn't want such a button myself in most games but I can see the point.

While I loved the game I would have liked a fast-forward button in Shenmue several tmes for instance (in fact Shenmue 2 sort of introduced this for some moments).