428 réponses à ce sujet

[Varen Spectre]

centauri2002 wrote...

I'm not entirely sure how you see a story in terms of a game. For me, a story must be there before the gameplay ever comes into existence. You can have an idea what kind of features you want in a game but everything should work off of the story itself. So you feel like you're playing the story.

As such, the gameplay should be adapted to the story and not the other way around. So, in essence, those in charge of combat and gameplay features should really enjoy the story, not the other way around. If you try to do it in reverse, that's when you start getting shoddy writing and huge plotholes.

I would say that you have described an ideal situation in which writers would be so good and creative that they would be able to come up with story, that would give designers a lot of room for gameplay ideas without necessity to change it retrospectively in the slightest...

However, I am not sure it is that simple... There might be many situations from game's engine not being able to handle some features which were emphasized in the script, through game designers coming up with new ideas which could dramatically improve the existing game, to producers changing the direction of the game; in which the writers would have to alter their work accordingly.

In order to do so efficiently though, they would need to communicate with the rest of the team and have a good idea about the current state of the game (which of their ideas have been implemented in the game, which haven't and what are the limits of game's technology, so that they won't come up with something that technology could not handle again). And for that, knowing, understanding and enjoying the rest of team's work would be very useful.

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[Monica83]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

Honestly a developer that say a thing like that should use her talent to make harmony book's and not be involved on videogame industry...Sorry this is not an insult but is a personal opinion..

When i read things like that i remember why bioware lost all the credibility on my eyes..

[Maconbar]

Monica83 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Just a reminder that I take insults against our developers very seriously, so let's please keep this civil and constructive. If Jennifer is good at what she does, does it really matter if she prefers different things in her games than you do?

Honestly a developer that say a thing like that should use her talent to make harmony book's and not be involved on videogame industry...Sorry this is not an insult but is a personal opinion..

When i read things like that i remember why bioware lost all the credibility on my eyes..

Did Heppler's work on DA:O cause you to dislike that game?

[Monica83]

lol a skip combat button... and then we have soon a skip dialogue button...

Ho come on is just ridicolus

[DreGregoire]

Well... financially for the devs... adding features that satisfy a larger audience is the way to go. So why not add in a battle/loot calculator in order to skip combat for those who would enjoy that type of feature? It would do nothing but widen their audience base. Again, something I've pointed out before. We need a pause feature for during cutscenes.

Telling somebody that they have no business playing a game because their preferences are different than yours is mean spirited and inappropriate. Fortunately the gaming industry does not revolve around any one person alone.

Also stating that somebody has no business working in an industry because of their personal preferences is also inappropriate and mean spirited. Developing games takes more than just one type of person. Should a company not hire a qualified programmer because that programmer doesn't use their type of product? Let's not bite off our nose to spite our face.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:34 .

[xkg]

Monica83 wrote...

lol a skip combat button... and then we have soon a skip dialogue button...

Ho come on is just ridicolus

Yes, we already have skip dialouge button so why not skip combat ? any logical reasons ?
Both would be optional for those who want to use them

Modifié par xkg, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:33 .

[Foolsfolly]

centauri2002 wrote...

I'm not entirely sure how you see a story in terms of a game. For me, a story must be there before the gameplay ever comes into existence. You can have an idea what kind of features you want in a game but everything should work off of the story itself. So you feel like you're playing the story.

As such, the gameplay should be adapted to the story and not the other way around. So, in essence, those in charge of combat and gameplay features should really enjoy the story, not the other way around. If you try to do it in reverse, that's when you start getting shoddy writing and huge plotholes.

I imagine its a work in process where all the different groups and their leads go back and forth with multiple people. Where many things are in flux all the up to the release. Where a good idea is shot down by one of any number of people including gameplay and story leads.

Or however that breaks down, what am I video game maker guy?

But I really really don't think it's as simple as one department setting the entire course of the game. As much as that may make sense to you these things are too big, need to be put out too quickly, and cost way too much for any one department to have that power.

Just like most people likely think the script writer is to blame for a bad movie. They have no idea how many producers, directors, and even big named actors get their fingers in that story and alter what may have been a good script into one of those mindless summer flicks everyone complains about.

You want a medium where the there's more creator control? Books... and even then there are people who censor and edit. Independent comic books and web original stuff seem to be 100% creator control. Maybe indie games but they lack the stories, gameplay, and graphics of these bigger games.

[Foolsfolly]

Telling somebody that they have no business playing a game because their preferences are different than yours is mean spirited and inappropriate.

I don't like puzzle games. Bejeweled should have an instant I win button so I'd play it. I suck at racing games, there shouldn't be a "You failed three times in a row, wanna insta-win?" option to accommodate for me.

Because I didn't win those things. I didn't beat them. And just giving me a win I didn't earn doesn't make those games fun to me either. If you can't play an RPG or find RPGs boring or too hard. Giving them a "Let Me Do It" button will not improve their experience. It'll just take the gameplay away from them. And I really doubt it'll attract new people.

"Do you like RPGs?"

"No."

"Well, now you can't lose!"

"I don't care. I don't like RPGs."

[Ulathar]

I agree with her, actually. Since I play BW games (or other RPGs) mostly for the story and the dialogues/character interaction, I wouldn't mind the option(!) to skip combat sections.

Often, after I start my 2nd pt of a game, I'm wondering why there isn't such an option. If you like combat, you can fight, if not, you can skip. It could be that simple (although the actual implementation of such a feature wouldn't be^^). I mean, it works fine in Dragon Age (killallhostiles) ;P

[xkg]

Foolsfolly wrote...
"Do you like RPGs?"

"No."

"Well, now you can't lose!"

"I don't care. I don't like RPGs."

"Do you like combat in Dragon Age 2?"
"No"
"So how did you manage to make 3 playthroughs"
"yeah I am playing on PC and there there is killallhostiles..."

So yes thx to that killallhostiles I finished DA2 three times so it did help.
Pleas don't tell me what is or is not good for me.

Modifié par xkg, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Herr Uhl]

Monica83 wrote...

lol a skip combat button... and then we have soon a skip dialogue button...

Ho come on is just ridicolus

There was a great clamour for mods that would let you skip the deep roads and the fade shortly after DAO. The "skip the fade" mod was downloaded by many people.

Come on, they're clearly just bots to show that Hepler's point isn't ridiculous. A conspiracy!

[Foolsfolly]

"Do you like combat in Dragon Age 2?"
"No"
"So how did you manage to make 3 playthroughs"
"yeah I am playing on PC and there there is killallhostiles..."

So yes thx to that killallhostiles I finished DA2 three times so it did help.
Pleas don't tell me what is or is not good for me.

Don't play games you don't like. If you cannot bring yourself to finish a game then that game is not to your liking. Why even waste time on a game you don't like playing?

Cheat all you want. It's your time and your dime. But such a cheat only underscores why a skip combat button isn't needed.

And again I say this will not bring in new people. It will frustrate more. The learning curve in games exist, your first fights are always easier and then it gets tougher as the game goes on. You learn as you go. And if you hit a wall you keep hitting that wall until you figure out how to avoid that wall.

You skip and you never learn. You get lost in later fights. And then you use the skip each and every damn time because it's become a crutch. It's like picking up a new game in the middle not knowing the controls or what does what and being told to hurry up and win.

And if you just find combat boring in a game... play a game you don't find boring. What's the... I don't understand...

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Gah. I don't like the idea. If for no other reason that it legitimises linear corridor combat as the only form of gameplay in a BioWare game. Which, while almost true for Dragon Age 2, is something that I'd consider horrible for future games.

Unless of course, we're simply talking about "skip content/game" toggle... which then leads to the question: why play a game if you don't want to play it?

Modifié par mrcrusty, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:58 .

[Ponendus]

Sorry but I agree with Jennifer.

Nobody has a monopoly on the meaning of the words 'game' or 'play'. A game can be anything; throwing a ball, acting out a story, killing 1000 bad guys, whatever.

I see nothing wrong at all with a game that has no killing at all but just has you acting out a story. I equally see nothing wrong with a game that contains both killing and acting out a story, with an option to skip either one.

I really can't see why anyone would object to such a thing? How does the presence of such a feature in any way, shape or form impact the person who likes the killing and the story? Or the person that just likes the killing? Sometimes I really don't understand people.

[DreGregoire]

The easy solution is not always the best way to deal with problems. Bioware Devs have clearly expressed an interest in appealing to a wider player base of customers; therefore, the solution of don't like don't play doesn't fit their agenda. I happen to love combat as much as the rest of the game, but that doesn't mean I want to wade through bloody battles every single playthrough of a game, just as much as many others don't want to have to sit through endless cutscenes everytime they feel like refighting an epic battle. I save often and there are times I want to just replay a battle on Nightmare and I do so. Other times I want to replay a scene because I enjoyed it. If these scenes and/or battles force me to replay something I would rather not, I still do it, but it would be nice to have another solution other than trying to save at just the right moment.

I have never used killall myself but now I'm tempted to give it a try. LOL

Modifié par DreGregoire, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:13 .

[Foolsfolly]

Nobody has a monopoly on the meaning of the words 'game' or 'play'. A game can be anything; throwing a ball, acting out a story, killing 1000 bad guys, whatever.

A video game is a set of unbreakable rules and clear achievable a goal.

The rules can vary from simple (eat pellets, avoid ghosts) to the complex (Baldur's Gate) but they must exist. And if they're broken the game robs from the player. Like giving a fighter in fighting game an unblockable attack while all other fighters have blockable attacks. That breaks the game because the rule was broken for no reason.

I really can't see why anyone would object to such a thing? How does the presence of such a feature in any way, shape or form impact the person who likes the killing and the story? Or the person that just likes the killing? Sometimes I really don't understand people.

Because opinions differ. No one here will change anyone's mind on this. At best we're just thinking aloud on this subject in a echo-y chamber. At worst we're wasting our mornings away on crap.

I think Jennifer's wrong. Such a button will not attract new nor female gamers to games. You want a noobie friendly game make something like Portal with a clear and progressive learning curve. Everyone understands everything about that game and they're allowed to master their skills as they go.

You want to keep people playing your game you make the best damn game you can. That includes fun and challenging gameplay. Not an Easy Button that beats everything for you.

[Ponendus]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I think Jennifer's wrong. Such a button will not attract new nor female gamers to games. You want a noobie friendly game make something like Portal with a clear and progressive learning curve. Everyone understands everything about that game and they're allowed to master their skills as they go.

You want to keep people playing your game you make the best damn game you can. That includes fun and challenging gameplay. Not an Easy Button that beats everything for you.

Why can't we have both? Why can't Dragon Age be a 'noobie friendly game' without it affecting the fun for those that like a challenge? Why does it have to be one way?

I also am not sure that one can make a claim that such a button will not attract new players; similarly, I don't actually think Jennifer ever suggested it would. She just said it is something she would like to see, perhaps she just meant it as something for convenience? Maybe that actually is her vision of the 'best damn game' she can make?

[Sutekh]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Don't play games you don't like. If you cannot bring yourself to finish a game then that game is not to your liking. Why even waste time on a game you don't like playing?

A game isn't defined by one feature only, be it combat or whatever. Especially RPGs. You can adore certain aspects of a given game while strongly disliking others. Giving people the possibility to skip those ones is a good thing. Again, options. And if I may, I also find it rather presomptuous of you to tell people what they should and shouldn't do with their games. Their time, their experience, their business. As long as it has no impact on yours, how is it a problem?

Cheat all you want. It's your time and your dime. But such a cheat only underscores why a skip combat button isn't needed.

Such cheats prove that people do skip those things. Why not make things easier for them? Not everyone want to go through the hassles of enabling the console and using it (with invisible font in DA2, at that).

And again I say this will not bring in new people. It will frustrate more. The learning curve in games exist, your first fights are always easier and then it gets tougher as the game goes on. You learn as you go. And if you hit a wall you keep hitting that wall until you figure out how to avoid that wall.

This isn't true for every game. Some learning curves are steep, which can cause people to simply give up, and miss on the rest of the game.

You skip and you never learn. You get lost in later fights. And then you use the skip each and every damn time because it's become a crutch. It's like picking up a new game in the middle not knowing the controls or what does what and being told to hurry up and win.

Seriously? Since when gaming has become some sort of life learning experience to be undertaken with the gravity of a religious one? Some play games just for fun (I know, boggles the mind, right?), and don't want to go through parts they find tedious / boring / too hard. There's no shame in that, as there's no obligation to "learn combat and enjoy it or else..."

And if you just find combat boring in a game... play a game you don't find boring. What's the... I don't understand...

And I don't understand the intolerance here. I, for instance, would never skip the Fade or Ostagar or a single fight (not even in DA2), but I don't care if people do. I'm not the gaming police. It has no effect whatsoever on my enjoyment of the games, and that's what counts. I might tell them "too bad, you're missing on something great", but "don't play this game if you skip this or that"? Nope.

And again, combat is only a part of a game. 

[Foolsfolly]

The easy solution is not always the best way to deal with problems. Bioware Devs have clearly expressed an interest in appealing to a wider player base of customers; therefore, the solution of don't like don't play doesn't fit their agenda.

Of course it doesn't. They're a business. But 9/10 people who dislike a game will stop playing that game or sell the thing back to a store or eBay. Therefore, it's always a solution that if you don't like a game you can stop playing it.

No one's forcing you to play the next Tomb Raider game, unless you happen to like that game.

BioWare's a business and I do not begrudge them for wanting to turn a profit and continue to make games. They will try to broaden their base as any good company does. If they make missteps they do. But an 'I-Win-Now' button will not win people over. Gameplay is why people play games, so is story. If your gameplay sucks people aren't likely going to hang around for the story. Some people will. I played Alan Wake for its story and style it's gameplay was not my cup of tea.

Hilariously, if your story sucks but your gameplay is well done people will buy the crap out of that. You just need to look over sales charts to see evidence of that. Hell, story isn't even required in most games. The readiest example being sports games.

If it's an option I won't ever use it. It's cheap and literally gamebreaking. If someone uses it, what do I care, right?

But it's a mistake to take games down that route. Broken games that require you to skip fights just to play it are not balanced correctly. This button is not a fix for that. Boring games are not worth your time, if it bores you it's not fun. Games are meant to be fun. And if it's a well designed game with fun gameplay then using this crutch cripples the gamer by ruining the learning curve.

They should just stick to having cheat codes. Cheaters will cheat and the rest of us will play the game without some stupid button or prompt holding our hand.

[DreGregoire]

Creating a skip combat button that calculates battle and loot for you does not make a game noobie friendly. It isn't even the point of creating such an option. The point of creating the option is to make it more user friendly for replayability. We can use console commands on the pc, but not everybody is a pc gamer. I can't tell you the number of times I have replayed the movie aspect of Devil May Cry 4 and replaying those cutscenes has done nothing but serve to encourage me to replay the entire game one more time. We're talking a time saving aspect. Why should a person who has a limited amount of time to play a game be less important than a person who wants uber combat with the ability to skip chatter? Is one person more entitled than the other?

Modifié par DreGregoire, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:29 .

[Jenova65]

Foolsfolly wrote...

And tbh... BioWare have been moving the goalposts a bit, you could argue that a lot of people who signed up for the Mass Effect trilogy are not getting the RPG/Shooter they thought they were getting they are getting a shooter game with RPG elements and it has caused a lot of people to feel marginalized (not me, I enjoy both ME and ME2)

Also with the news that they are ramping up the difficulty for everyone (because insanity, isn't insane enough... I dunno...) there *might* be quite a few people for whom the changes are game breaking, so... what...? They should never get to complete the game?

...

...yes. Yes they should never beat the game. That probably seems callous, and it likely is, but games are so easy these days. Auto-saves, checkpoints, most games have absolutely no penalty for dying, multiple difficulties to account for all skill levels including the littlest of children who can only grasp so much.

And if you can't beat a game on its simple difficulty setting or even with cheat codes, then yeah. You shouldn't beat that game.

Thanks for sharing HOWEVER as shocking as this may be... your opinion hasn't affected mine...  
Oh and for the record... I don't ever use cheat codes...........
I think you may have missed my point about the difficulty being ramped up two thirds of the way through a trilogy....... meaning in the simplest terms I can find, someone who needed to beat the game on easy in ME and ME2 might certainly feel justifiably annoyed that they can't complete the third because BioWare wanted to make it harder...
As I stated I'm not actually speaking for myself here     I most likely wouldn't use the feature in Mass Effect.. It's important to remember that A LOT of BioWare fans are here for the depth of gaming that BioWare off and I do in fact know several people who *get through* the combat as a means to and end..

[Ponendus]

DreGregoire wrote...
We're talking a time saving aspect. Why should a person who has a limited amount of time to play a game be less important than a person who wants uber combat with the ability to skip chatter? Is one person more entitled than the other?

Mmm, I agree with this. I think that the more accessible you can make a game to a wider variety of players, the better. I am not a particularly good gamer, and I don't begrudge that, I just don't have the time (nor inclination) to learn how to be great. I also am not competitive by nature so I don't really have that motivation to succeed either. I like to play 'casual' mode. I like the satisfaction of downing the bad guys quickly and moving the story along the first time I play. I have no desire to down the bad guys the second time around and instead just see them as obstacles to getting to the other version of the story that I didn't see the first time.

I think that the 'option' to skip and make the game more accessible to me is a far better idea than me coming on here and arguing 'please make the game easier in general'. It assists me, and it affects nobody else.

[Foolsfolly]

Why can't we have both? Why can't Dragon Age be a 'noobie friendly game' without it affecting the fun for those that like a challenge? Why does it have to be one way?

Dragon Age can be a noobie friendly game. It's not. The first game has a ton of things to learn if you've never played an RPG before. It gives nothing to teach newbies. In fact, it buries them in exposition on fantasy kingdoms and terms. Someone new to all this has to learn mechanics, abilities, hotkeys, and the like on top of all the lore exposition we all learned. Which, personally, I did not care about or fully understand my first time through. There was no context for arlings yet or Calenhad or Dane and the Werewolf. I was just trying to find where the larder was so I'd collect my dog.

DA2 has a 'tutorial' where you're in God Mode and just press a bunch of spells and abilities you have no idea what they do.

Neither game is newbie friendly. Even with the streamlining of the combat system and speeding it up. It's easier for us to learn but a newbie? There's no teaching. There's no tutorial which we all cut our teeth on. It expects us to know these things while at the same time streamlining them. It's for us to breeze through the game faster, not particularly for a guy who has no idea how attributes affect stats. Let alone how to work tactics sheets.

Mass Effect 2 however is far more newbie friendly. Not because of the removal of inventory management and simple skill progression (although I doubt that hurt it) but because there's an optional three tutorials teaching you combos, tactics, hotkeying, and how to issue commands to your squad. These can be watched and rewatched at any time. Then on top of that the first mission has Miranda talking you through weapon switching, reloading, using cover, and everything else you'd need to know.

A button that skips combat is not newbie friendly. It breaks the learning curve and makes them dependent on the skip button. Yeah, they'll beat the game... if that's your only goal in game design then this is the way to go. Make the whole experience optional.

[Jenova65]

Systemlord Baal wrote...

I agree with her, actually. Since I play BW games (or other RPGs) mostly for the story and the dialogues/character interaction, I wouldn't mind the option(!) to skip combat sections.

Often, after I start my 2nd pt of a game, I'm wondering why there isn't such an option. If you like combat, you can fight, if not, you can skip. It could be that simple (although the actual implementation of such a feature wouldn't be^^). I mean, it works fine in Dragon Age (killallhostiles) ;P

Tch ^ *glorious PC master race* = lazy gamer? 
Please don't hunt me down............