240 réponses à ce sujet

[Neverdyne]

Think of it. What is the purpose of our civilization? What is the purpose of technological and social progress? Is it to make our lives eternal? To know all there is to know about the universe? To reach perfect harmony in our existence? Don't we, deep inside, wish to not be alone? The Reapers are the answer, they are giving us a shortcut to achieving every civilization's ultimate goals.

The more we find out about them, the more it points to them being the ultimate destination of organic life as we know it. Think about it:

+ They are each a nation, a consolidated counciousness of billions of members of a species. "True unity" as Legion put it. The ultimate "social" goal. To be many, and one at the same time. No longer will you be alone, no longer will we fight each other over petty differences and selfishness. We will be united in an intimate way. Their unity prevents wars, prevents genocides, crime, murders, theft, loneliness, etc. They have solved the social dilema. Civilizations as we know them are too fragile, nuclear wars, holocausts; they self destruct. The Reapers solved this.

+ They are the pinnacle of technological progress, as far as we know. The consolidated knowledge of an infinte number of species. The ultimate "progress" goal. They are more capable of surviving natural disasters, scarcity of resources, etc., than any civilization will ever be. Every organic life tries to survive, from the smallest bacteria to the largest mammal, our natural purpose as a species is to survive. Becoming a Reaper is the best chance we have.

+ They are immortal. Organic species, who achieved eternal lives. Is that not what sapient species desire? Would you not choose immortality over a meaningless (in the grand scale of time, a.k.a. billions of years) temporal life? The ultimate "life" goal.

Now think of this scenario. An organic civilization that lived millions of years ago had these same goals. Maybe they saw how other civilizations destroyed themselves (like Krogan), maybe they predicted the perils of the natural universe (like dark matter consuming stars). Be whatever it may be. They achieved the technological level that made them capable of solving these problems; they reached those three ultimate goals pointed above in the only way the fisical laws of the universe permit them to be solved: becoming a Reaper. 

And so when they noticed new organic sapient life take to the stars after them, in an act of kindness they would spare them the thousands, maybe even millions of years that would take for them to reach this ultimate goal of existence by themselves. They would make them Reapers. Give them a shortcut. 

What would happen with the resources of our galaxy if, instead of an hibernating species like the reapers, who spend most of their time sleeping outside the galaxy, they would have let normal civilizations like humans spread and consume resources? After millions of years, would there be any left? Would the chance of new sapient species appearing in the galaxy be destroyed? Would that not be slfish? That a single species, say humans, spread across the galaxy and through millions of years consume all resources, negating the chance of new sapient species to arise? 

TL;DR The Reapers are good. We should join with them.

[JeffZero]

Live free or die, I always say.

[Comsky159]

Someone's been indoctrinated.

[Neverdyne]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I think this is...who was it, Saphra or Zulu, said something like this.

And OP, of course life has no purpose. But you give it purpose. That's hardly a reason to join to the species that promises only extermination.

The only extermination they promise is that of our selfish individuality. They promise eternal life, perfect social harmony and the pinnacle of technological progress. 

[JeffZero]

Neverdyne wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I think this is...who was it, Saphra or Zulu, said something like this.

And OP, of course life has no purpose. But you give it purpose. That's hardly a reason to join to the species that promises only extermination.

The only extermination they promise is that of our selfish individuality. They promise eternal life, perfect social harmony and the pinnacle of technological progress. 

And they're willing to utterly exterminate every species they don't deem fit for this 'great gift'. You speak of the selfishness of other avenues but do you not see the inherent selfishness in humanity accepting such a token and leaving the turians, the salarians, the asari, the quarians, the krogan, the geth, the drell, the hanar, everyone else you know and love to their doom?

[AdmiralCheez]

Imma make like a geth and build my own future.

EDIT: Really, I see the whole "we will uplift you" thing the same way I see the heaven/hell pitch -- the only way to confirm it is to, well, die basically.  So thanks but no thanks.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[Zakatak757]

I'm not relying on genocidal monsters to progress my race. Legion has got the game of life down to business.

"We build our own future."
"What future are the Geth building?"
"...ours."

[nitefyre410]

Oh one of these guys - Well your welcome to join them just don't come crying back when I blowing the new Giant Space Squid buddies out of the galaxy and you along with them.

[jamesp81]

JeffZero wrote...

Live free or die, I always say.

[Soul Cool]

Neverdyne wrote...
The Reapers are the answer, they are giving us a shortcut to achieving every civilization's ultimate goals.

Tell that to the Protheans.

And every other species that was exterminated after being deemed unfit to continue over the many millions of years that the Reapers have practiced applied mass extinction.

Modifié par Soul Cool, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Zakatak757]

Better dead than red Reaper

[Bitework]

 If I take 10 people, and place them in a giant blender and set it to 'shred' I didn't just combine 10 lifeforms, I just turned 10 people into a soup. Same thing goes for the reapers.  Do reapers even reproduce? because thats the point of living- to pass on your genes. look into it. 

edit: I'd prefer 0-105 years of living as an actual human vs eternity as a puddle inside a spaceship.

Modifié par Bitework, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[111987]

Neverdyne wrote...


+ They are each a nation, a consolidated counciousness of billions of members of a species. "True unity" as Legion put it. The ultimate "social" goal. To be many, and one at the same time. No longer will you be alone, no longer will we fight each other over petty differences and selfishness. We will be united in an intimate way. Their unity prevents wars, prevents genocides, crime, murders, theft, loneliness, etc. They have solved the social dilema. Civilizations as we know them are too fragile, nuclear wars, holocausts; they self destruct. The Reapers solved this.

Part of what makes organics special are there differences. Yes, it causes problems, but it also encourages growth, advancement, and progress. Just look at the Derelict Reaper, and then look at Sovereign. The Derelict Reaper is 37 million years old, and in all that time, the Reapers haven't advanced at all. They've maintained their existence, but they no longer are growing.

Oh, and the Reaper aren't as peaceful as you make them out to be. Prevent wars and genocides? Not even close; dozens of species in this organic cycle alone will be rendered extinct; who are the Reapers to judge which species are worthy or not?

Neverdyne wrote...

+ They are the pinnacle of technological progress, as far as we know. The consolidated knowledge of an infinte number of species. The ultimate "progress" goal. They are more capable of surviving natural disasters, scarcity of resources, etc., than any civilization will ever be. Every organic life tries to survive, from the smallest bacteria to the largest mammal, our natural purpose as a species is to survive. Becoming a Reaper is the best chance we have.

A Reaper is more capable of surviving than an entire species spread out across the galaxy? Destroy one 2km Reaper body, and an entire species, billions of individuals, are lost forever. Destroy one 2k city, and you're in the low millions, if that. In some ways yes, the Reapers are better suited for survival, but it's a high risk system. Lose one ship, and your entire species is gone forever.

Neverdyne wrote...


+ They are immortal. Organic species, who achieved eternal lives. Is that not what sapient species desire? Would you not choose immortality over a meaningless (in the grand scale of time, a.k.a. billions of years) temporal life? The ultimate "life" goal.

I don't know; is a sapient species goal to be immortal? That is a personal goal; there are plenty of old people whom are ready to 'move on' (i.e. die). I don't think there's every been a study done on whether or not people wish they could live forever, so it's impossible to decide whether immortality really is so important to organics.

Neverdyne wrote...

What would happen with the resources of our galaxy if, instead of an hibernating species like the reapers, who spend most of their time sleeping outside the galaxy, they would have let normal civilizations like humans spread and consume resources? After millions of years, would there be any left? Would the chance of new sapient species appearing in the galaxy be destroyed? Would that not be slfish? That a single species, say humans, spread across the galaxy and through millions of years consume all resources, negating the chance of new sapient species to arise? 

You are seriously underestimating the size of the galaxy...the ME races have explored 1% of the galaxy. I don't think resources are an issue.

One final point i'd like to make; the Virtual Aliens. The Virtual Aliens are essentially the same thing as the Reapers; an organic species was faced with the possibility of extinction and thus uploaded their minds onto an AI-controlled starship. However, many of these Virtual Aliens were unhappy with their lives and wanted to be free, to return to organic form. While this is just speculation, the Reaper minds could be like this too. Possibly, the minds in the Reaper aren't all as happy about being transcended as the Reapers would want you to believe.

[Neverdyne]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Neverdyne wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I think this is...who was it, Saphra or Zulu, said something like this.

And OP, of course life has no purpose. But you give it purpose. That's hardly a reason to join to the species that promises only extermination.

The only extermination they promise is that of our selfish individuality. They promise eternal life, perfect social harmony and the pinnacle of technological progress. 

And they're willing to utterly exterminate every species they don't deem fit for this 'great gift'. You speak of the selfishness of other avenues but do you not see the inherent selfishness in humanity accepting such a token and leaving the turians, the salarians, the asari, the quarians, the krogan, the geth, the drell, the hanar, everyone else you know and love to their doom?

Good point.

And, how do we know these things are true that they promise? We have only their word for it, and they're the ones trying to kill us, after all. You really can't take them for their word.

I suppose I should tank you EternalAmbiguity. After your first post I couldn't stop thinking about what you said. About Sover...err the Reapers manipulating me. About "Indoctrination". The doubts began to eat away in me. The Reapers sensed my hesitation...I was implanted to strengthen my resolve! Now my doubts are gone! 

[JeffZero]

Neverdyne wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Neverdyne wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I think this is...who was it, Saphra or Zulu, said something like this.

And OP, of course life has no purpose. But you give it purpose. That's hardly a reason to join to the species that promises only extermination.

The only extermination they promise is that of our selfish individuality. They promise eternal life, perfect social harmony and the pinnacle of technological progress. 

And they're willing to utterly exterminate every species they don't deem fit for this 'great gift'. You speak of the selfishness of other avenues but do you not see the inherent selfishness in humanity accepting such a token and leaving the turians, the salarians, the asari, the quarians, the krogan, the geth, the drell, the hanar, everyone else you know and love to their doom?

Good point.

And, how do we know these things are true that they promise? We have only their word for it, and they're the ones trying to kill us, after all. You really can't take them for their word.

I suppose I should tank you EternalAmbiguity. After your first post I couldn't stop thinking about what you said. About Sover...err the Reapers manipulating me. About "Indoctrination". The doubts began to eat away in me. The Reapers sensed my hesitation...I was implanted to strengthen my resolve! Now my doubts are gone! 

Saren Artrollius, ladies and salarians.

[Bio Addict]

Are there cool Reaper hats and jackets for joining?

Modifié par Bio Addict, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:56 .

[Annihilator27]

Soul Cool wrote...

Neverdyne wrote...
The Reapers are the answer, they are giving us a shortcut to achieving every civilization's ultimate goals.

Tell that to the Protheans.

And every other species that was exterminated after being deemed unfit to continue over the many millions of years that the Reapers have practiced applied mass extinction.

I'll tell that to the next species im harvesting in my new Reaper body.

[JeffZero]

annihilator27 wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

Neverdyne wrote...
The Reapers are the answer, they are giving us a shortcut to achieving every civilization's ultimate goals.

Tell that to the Protheans.

And every other species that was exterminated after being deemed unfit to continue over the many millions of years that the Reapers have practiced applied mass extinction.

I'll tell that to the next species im harvesting in my new Reaper body.

You're the Sith Lord! 

[Neverdyne]

111987 wrote...

Part of what makes organics special are there differences. Yes, it causes problems, but it also encourages growth, advancement, and progress. Just look at the Derelict Reaper, and then look at Sovereign. The Derelict Reaper is 37 million years old, and in all that time, the Reapers haven't advanced at all. They've maintained their existence, but they no longer are growing.

But what if they have reached the ultimate state? They have grown all that it is possible to grow, there is nothing beyond. They know everything that can be known about the universe. There is no knowlege left out there to aqcuire. All poetry has been invented, all music has been written, all science is known. At this point, differences between individual members of a species are not important anymore. Before, you would have a biologist and an artist, each contributing new things to our civilization. But now, there are no new things left to discover, to create. Now, the biologist is also an artist, and a composer, and an engineer, and a physicist, etc. Now we are all one.

111987 wrote...

Oh, and the Reaper aren't as peaceful as you make them out to be. Prevent wars and genocides? Not even close; dozens of species in this organic cycle alone will be rendered extinct; who are the Reapers to judge which species are worthy or not?

They are the most advanced organic life form to ever have existed that still lives in the galaxy. They know more about the universe than the turians, humans, hannar, etc. They are also more intelligent, and have a different perspective of reality that the others cannot grasp. If they are not fit to say what species are worth it and which ones not, then I doubt a human, turian or any other is fit to say it either. So really its just subjective. 

111987 wrote...

A Reaper is more capable of surviving than an entire species spread out across the galaxy? Destroy one 2km Reaper body, and an entire species, billions of individuals, are lost forever. Destroy one 2k city, and you're in the low millions, if that. In some ways yes, the Reapers are better suited for survival, but it's a high risk system. Lose one ship, and your entire species is gone forever.

I'll give you that one. Maybe they know something, a threat, that we don't know about? Making their form of existance better suited to counter this threat.

111987 wrote...
You are seriously underestimating the size of the galaxy...the ME races have explored 1% of the galaxy. I don't think resources are an issue.

Yes but how much of that galaxy has hospitable planets, with the right conditions for life to arise? Maybe the reapers saw that they were just a few, and linked them with mass relays. Knowing full well that if organic life appeared again, it would have to be in one of those systems linked. It would also make their job easier, knowing exactly where life would appear each cycle. 

111987 wrote...
One final point i'd like to make; the Virtual Aliens. The Virtual Aliens are essentially the same thing as the Reapers; an organic species was faced with the possibility of extinction and thus uploaded their minds onto an AI-controlled starship. However, many of these Virtual Aliens were unhappy with their lives and wanted to be free, to return to organic form. While this is just speculation, the Reaper minds could be like this too. Possibly, the minds in the Reaper aren't all as happy about being transcended as the Reapers would want you to believe.

It could also depend on "how" are the vitual aliens unified. If they are all just living individuals in a virtual world, like a matrix, I could see how they would still want out. But if they were truly consolidated, in a single consciousness, maybe their persepctive would be entirely different. 

Modifié par Neverdyne, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:10 .

[JeffZero]

That is the strangest quote pyramid I've ever seen.

[111987]

Neverdyne wrote...

But what if they have reached the ultimate state? They have grown all that it is possible to grow, there is nothing beyond. They know everything that can be known about the universe. There is no knowlege left out there to aqcuire. All poetry has been invented, all music has been written, all science is known. At this point, differences between individual members of a species are not important anymore. Before, you would have a biologist and an artist, each contributing new things to our civilization. But now, there are no new things left to discover, to create. Now, the biologist is also an artist, and a composer, and an engineer, and a physicist, etc. Now we are all one.

Who says they know everything there is to know? If you were to meld every human in our world today into a single consciousness, would we know everything their is to know in the universe? Not even close. That's what the Reapers are. They have the combined intelligence, memories of whatever the current sum of their species intelligence is.

Neverdyne wrote...
They are the most advanced organic life form to ever have existed that still lives in the galaxy. They know more about the universe than the turians, humans, hannar, etc. They are also more intelligent, and have a different perspective of reality that the others cannot grasp. If they are not fit to say what species are worth it and which ones not, then I doubt a human, turian or any other is fit to say it either. So really its just subjective.

That would be a fair point if the Humans or Turians or Hanar were judging other species and deciding which are fit to be kept alive and which should be exterminated, but they aren't. They are far more intelligent than us, but their criteria is still subjective, like you said. The fate of an entire species shouldn't be decided based on the standards of another.

Neverdyne wrote...

Yes but how much of that galaxy has hospitable planets, with the right conditions for life to arise? Maybe the reapers saw that they were just a few, and linked them with mass relays. Knowing full well that if organic life appeared again, it would have to be in one of those systems linked. It would also make their job easier, knowing exactly where life would appear each cycle.

Our scientists today estimate there about 500 million planets capable of supporting life in our galaxy. That is a HUGE number. Not to mention the billions of planets that can still be mined for resources.

Neverdyne wrote...

It could also depend on "how" are the vitual aliens unified. If they are all just living individuals in a virtual world, like a matrix, I could see how they would still want out. But if they were truly consolidated, in a single consciousness, maybe their persepctive would be entirely different. 

A fair point. I think it was actually more of a matrix setting, so I'll withdraw that argument.

[Bogsnot1]

If you want to join the Reapers, then save your money and dont buy ME3. Just get Arrival and let the clock count down to zero.