240 réponses à ce sujet

[shinobi602]

I agree OP.

And then we have no ME3 to play. Excellent idea!

[Grim Intent]

lol really op? the reapers are mostly synthetic first of all.... silly kid.

[Relix28]

Great idea genius.

[Undertone]

Aradace wrote...

The question is, do YOU know what freedom is?  Im not 100% sure who you're talking about with this particular part of your post (because Im going to assume it's not me) and Im not meaning this as a stab at you in particular.  But I, for one, definitely know what freedom is having served my country.  There's a song we used to sing in the Army and Im sure some of you may know it but it goes a little something like; "Some say freedom is free.  But I tend to disagree.  Much like War freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun"  While not entirely true in all aspects, it does certainly ring true on others.  

I'll even go so far as to say that anyone here that has had family that fought and/or died in military service knows what freedom is.  Obtaining, and sustaining freedom has 0 to do with morals.  Because when it comes down to it, as you so aptlly put it, you have to sacrafice morals and/or principles to obtain it.  In a perfect world, you dont have to sacrafice in order to achieve "freedom".  But, we dont live in a perfect world unfortunately.  So sacrafices have to be made.  Nothing comes without a cost attached and to think otherwise is childish and naive (not saying you are either but there are some who think such things CAN be obtained without sacrafice.)

 

So you served in the military. Okay, cool. I also did. But you didn't answer my question. Obtaining and sustaining freedom has everything to do with morals - whether you sacrifice them or not. Why? Because the method through which you obtain this so called freedom is important. I should know considering my people were slaves for 5 centuries, not so long ago actually.

Someone With Mass wrote...


So the geth are retards for realizing that they have no future since they're artificial life and must create their own reasons to exist, unlike other races that already have something worth fighting for? Not to mention that their situation doesn't apply to anyone else? Cool story, bro.

I'd say that's a pretty good thing to do. To shape their own destiny and be independent of others once they have the right tools to do it.

Oh, and the humans not joining the galactic community? That'd actually be a good thing, considering that they wouldn't be targeted by the Reapers.

As always you jump the horse and bring up stuff I say nowhere. I'm not talking anywhere about the Geth future. Plus how are they any different from the organic species - they fight for their existence. Isn't that for which we are fighting? 

Legion is a retard in the context that he says we should forsake and not utilize other races technology. Why not? It makes no sense for reasons I already explained. 

Whether it's good or bad that humanity joined the galactix community is completely different topic. I merely said that was it not for the prothean cache we would have stayed in our own space for a long time. 

Ieldra2 wrote...


@Untertone:
Yes, Legion's "logic" is flawed and I don't have a lot of patience with those cheesy lines you quoted. But on the whole, I think 111987 has countered the OP's points succintly and sufficiently.

Perhaps. Joining the Reapers is an option I would consider when I know sufficient information about them, their plans and so on. As it is, we simply don't know what they are, what they plan and what their goals are. 

ddv.rsa wrote...

Whatever my morals and integrity are, I'd rather die than be turned into Reaper goo.

Survival is preferable to Extinction. Sometimes is better to forsake your morals and integrity to live to fight another day. 

Modifié par Undertone, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[nitefyre410]

Harbinger with GLaDOS voice inflection: Welcome the Reaper Indoctrination Center.

[Syreniac]

Personally, I don't really care if people want to become Reapers (or Reaper style beings); however, my Shep is fighting to let people choose for themselves.

[Aradace]

Undertone wrote...

So you served in the military. Okay, cool. I also did. But you didn't answer my question. Obtaining and sustaining freedom has everything to do with morals - whether you sacrifice them or not. Why? Because the method through which you obtain this so called freedom is important. I should know considering my people were slaves for 5 centuries, not so long ago actually.

I didnt answer the question because it's irrelevant.  Morals has nothing to do with sustaining it despite what you may think.  Why? Because regardless of any ideal you may have, you WILL have to sacrafice Morals and/or Principles to do so.  That is why I didnt answer the question.  When it comes to freedom, you do whatever it takes to obtain and sustain it. WHATEVER it takes.  The ends always justify the means when it comes to freedom.  If you have to sacrafice an entire species/race/whatnot to do so, then so be it.  But that's not to say that sacrafice would be shrugged off and forgotten at the first chance like it was an easy choice to make.

Modifié par Aradace, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:41 .

[Undertone]

Aradace wrote...

I didnt answer the question because it's irrelevant.  Morals has nothing to do with sustaining it despite what you may think.  Why? Because regardless of any ideal you may have, you WILL have to sacrafice Morals and/or Principles to do so.  That is why I didnt answer the question.  When it comes to freedom, you do whatever it takes to obtain and sustain it. WHATEVER it takes.  The ends always justify the means when it comes to freedom.  If you have to sacrafice an entire species/race/whatnot to do so, then so be it.  But that's not to say that sacrafice would be shrugged off and forgotten at the first chance like it was an easy choice to make.

My question was - what is freedom to you? What do you consider freedom is? 

As for the rest - people like you are the reasons why I left the military first chance I could. I think it's also obvious from your view which nationality you have. 

[Aradace]

Undertone wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I didnt answer the question because it's irrelevant.  Morals has nothing to do with sustaining it despite what you may think.  Why? Because regardless of any ideal you may have, you WILL have to sacrafice Morals and/or Principles to do so.  That is why I didnt answer the question.  When it comes to freedom, you do whatever it takes to obtain and sustain it. WHATEVER it takes.  The ends always justify the means when it comes to freedom.  If you have to sacrafice an entire species/race/whatnot to do so, then so be it.  But that's not to say that sacrafice would be shrugged off and forgotten at the first chance like it was an easy choice to make.

My question was - what is freedom to you? What do you consider freedom is? 

As for the rest - people like you are the reasons why I left the military first chance I could. I think it's also obvious from your view which nationality you have. 

1.)  What is freedom to me?  To me it's having the ability to determine my own path.  It's that simple for me.  Because as brief of an explanation as it may be, it implies so much more.  

2.)  Firstly, that was your choice.  Dont presume to judge me just because I have the ability to make the tough choices in life and live with the consequences.  Secondly, yes, Im american and damn proud of it.  I may have gripes and complaints about my government but you know what?  I love her all the same.  It's because of "people like me" that "people like you" have the ability to live as you do now (in the US anyway) and complain about "people like me" without fear of legal ramifications.  Again, a proverbial cross I was willing to bare for the greater good.

[AlexXIV]

Op actually got a point. I'd even think about it if they would not commit genocide as OP suggested. Because, frankly, that's what they do. They treat the races of the galaxy like we treat our earthborn races. We use them, harvest them, turn them into servants. Thing is I believe if there is a purpose then we have to find it on our own, maybe with help of others, but certainly not dictated by others. They didn't approach us with words, they came with Sovereign and the Geth and killed many of our people. So they get what they asked for.

[xentar]

Well, I'd rather join them than win "at a price of a great sacrifice".

Modifié par xentar, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[Aradace]

xentar wrote...

Well, I'd rather join them than win "at a price of a great sacrifice".

Have fun with that.  Because the liklihood of there being a "sunshine and rainbows" ending in ME3 is slim to none.  You WILL have to sacrafice something to achieve victory against the reapers.  If you're unwilling to accept that, you may as well not even play to be honest.

Modifié par Aradace, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:35 .

[Arkitekt]

Was Saphra cloned? Or is indoctrination spreading?

Either way, we must kill this husk before he spreads the disease.

[AlexXIV]

Well freedom is an illusion. You can only be as free as the world lets you, there are limits to everything. It is one of those words politicians toss to the crowds so they cheer at them. But really, freedom is relative. You may feel free in a world that isn't actually free. But that's because the things that are important to you are actually free. So different people may feel different in the same society. Those who have everything they want feel free, the others don't.

[Aradace]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well freedom is an illusion. You can only be as free as the world lets you, there are limits to everything. It is one of those words politicians toss to the crowds so they cheer at them. But really, freedom is relative. You may feel free in a world that isn't actually free. But that's because the things that are important to you are actually free. So different people may feel different in the same society. Those who have everything they want feel free, the others don't.

I agree, freedom IS an illusion.  So is "truth" to be honest but that's another topic altogether as far as Im concerned lol.  Hence why my own definition of "freedom" seems so vague.  Sure, Im free to decide my own path, as long as the steps I take along the way dont tread on any laws and such.  It really is, as you said, a very relative term which is why the defintion is so diverse from person to person.

[Arkitekt]

Neverdyne wrote...

Think of it. What is the purpose of our civilization? What is the purpose of technological and social progress? Is it to make our lives eternal? To know all there is to know about the universe? To reach perfect harmony in our existence? Don't we, deep inside, wish to not be alone? The Reapers are the answer, they are giving us a shortcut to achieving every civilization's ultimate goals.

Who says that we "deep inside" wish not to be alone? I for one appreciate a lot my times where I am alone. Only a lonely person would ever say this nonsense. And who is to tell me that I care about the "purpose of our civilization"? I care with my life my family and my friends. I only care about the "civilization" so that it may suit my and their purposes and happiness. Perhaps you like being borgified.

+ They are each a nation, a consolidated counciousness of billions of members of a species. "True unity" as Legion put it. The ultimate "social" goal. To be many, and one at the same time. No longer will you be alone, no longer will we fight each other over petty differences and selfishness. We will be united in an intimate way. Their unity prevents wars, prevents genocides, crime, murders, theft, loneliness, etc. They have solved the social dilema. Civilizations as we know them are too fragile, nuclear wars, holocausts; they self destruct. The Reapers solved this.

Again, who are you to say what the "ultimate social goal" is? I don't recognize your authority nor your assertion on this. And there are clear problems with your solution. Much suffering is created by the reapers' process to "ascend" the species, and all reapers (read all civilizations "ascended") seem to agree on the barbaric methodology. The barbarism of it is a clear indication that this "ascension" degraded their morals to an abhorrent state of affairs. I.e., something's very wrong on Reaper's paradise. I want none of that. If mankind is to be ascended, let it be by their own. Not forced by an Holocaust.

+ They are the pinnacle of technological progress, as far as we know. The consolidated knowledge of an infinte number of species. The ultimate "progress" goal. They are more capable of surviving natural disasters, scarcity of resources, etc., than any civilization will ever be. Every organic life tries to survive, from the smallest bacteria to the largest mammal, our natural purpose as a species is to survive. Becoming a Reaper is the best chance we have.

I'm trying very very very hard to avoid godwin's law here. So they are strong. So the **** what? Is strenght a substitute for righteousness now?

+ They are immortal. Organic species, who achieved eternal lives. Is that not what sapient species desire? Would you not choose immortality over a meaningless (in the grand scale of time, a.k.a. billions of years) temporal life? The ultimate "life" goal.

Hey look, a whole "civilization" named Nazara got burned down in the citadel! But I thought it was immortal! Well... bad luck huh!

And your telelogical insistence is nonsensical, arrogant and unsupported. You are not to say what life "is for", for such an assertion is baseless and ... pure nonsense. The universe is not teleological.

Now think of this scenario. An organic civilization that lived millions of years ago had these same goals. Maybe they saw how other civilizations destroyed themselves (like Krogan), maybe they predicted the perils of the natural universe (like dark matter consuming stars). Be whatever it may be. They achieved the technological level that made them capable of solving these problems; they reached those three ultimate goals pointed above in the only way the fisical laws of the universe permit them to be solved: becoming a Reaper. 

And so when they noticed new organic sapient life take to the stars after them, in an act of kindness they would spare them the thousands, maybe even millions of years that would take for them to reach this ultimate goal of existence by themselves. They would make them Reapers. Give them a shortcut.

Already making excuses for their holocausts? I say it's possible you are right, it's even possible that they do think this way (I doubt it, I don't think they do what they do out of generosity and altruism, but of necessity or desire), they have no right to abuse organics this way. They only have the power to do so. And like all "good tirants" of the past (and present), we have to destroy them. We have to fight for our freedoms.

What would happen with the resources of our galaxy if, instead of an hibernating species like the reapers, who spend most of their time sleeping outside the galaxy, they would have let normal civilizations like humans spread and consume resources? After millions of years, would there be any left? Would the chance of new sapient species appearing in the galaxy be destroyed? Would that not be slfish? That a single species, say humans, spread across the galaxy and through millions of years consume all resources, negating the chance of new sapient species to arise?

I cringe whenever I see this pseudo-ecological argument, and this pseudo-altruistic blaming nonsense. There is no "right or wrong" in letting "other sapient species arise", whatever the hell that means. I see much wrongness in letting these species "arise" to cull and reap them every 50k years, killing billions and billions (and making the resistance suffer for centuries until they are dead... the hopelessness... the depressiveness of it all... it's ghastly!) every time. 

You should check your depraved moral priorities right now, you are completely confused about it all. The reapers are the worst kind of villain that exist in the literature, and should be irreversively destroyed. Forever.

[Iron Star]

Neverdyne wrote...

111987 wrote...

Part of what makes organics special are there differences. Yes, it causes problems, but it also encourages growth, advancement, and progress. Just look at the Derelict Reaper, and then look at Sovereign. The Derelict Reaper is 37 million years old, and in all that time, the Reapers haven't advanced at all. They've maintained their existence, but they no longer are growing.

But what if they have reached the ultimate state? They have grown all that it is possible to grow, there is nothing beyond. They know everything that can be known about the universe. There is no knowlege left out there to aqcuire. All poetry has been invented, all music has been written, all science is known. At this point, differences between individual members of a species are not important anymore. Before, you would have a biologist and an artist, each contributing new things to our civilization. But now, there are no new things left to discover, to create. Now, the biologist is also an artist, and a composer, and an engineer, and a physicist, etc. Now we are all one.

111987 wrote...

Oh, and the Reaper aren't as peaceful as you make them out to be. Prevent wars and genocides? Not even close; dozens of species in this organic cycle alone will be rendered extinct; who are the Reapers to judge which species are worthy or not?

They are the most advanced organic life form to ever have existed that still lives in the galaxy. They know more about the universe than the turians, humans, hannar, etc. They are also more intelligent, and have a different perspective of reality that the others cannot grasp. If they are not fit to say what species are worth it and which ones not, then I doubt a human, turian or any other is fit to say it either. So really its just subjective. 

111987 wrote...

A Reaper is more capable of surviving than an entire species spread out across the galaxy? Destroy one 2km Reaper body, and an entire species, billions of individuals, are lost forever. Destroy one 2k city, and you're in the low millions, if that. In some ways yes, the Reapers are better suited for survival, but it's a high risk system. Lose one ship, and your entire species is gone forever.

I'll give you that one. Maybe they know something, a threat, that we don't know about? Making their form of existance better suited to counter this threat.

111987 wrote...
You are seriously underestimating the size of the galaxy...the ME races have explored 1% of the galaxy. I don't think resources are an issue.

Yes but how much of that galaxy has hospitable planets, with the right conditions for life to arise? Maybe the reapers saw that they were just a few, and linked them with mass relays. Knowing full well that if organic life appeared again, it would have to be in one of those systems linked. It would also make their job easier, knowing exactly where life would appear each cycle. 

111987 wrote...
One final point i'd like to make; the Virtual Aliens. The Virtual Aliens are essentially the same thing as the Reapers; an organic species was faced with the possibility of extinction and thus uploaded their minds onto an AI-controlled starship. However, many of these Virtual Aliens were unhappy with their lives and wanted to be free, to return to organic form. While this is just speculation, the Reaper minds could be like this too. Possibly, the minds in the Reaper aren't all as happy about being transcended as the Reapers would want you to believe.

It could also depend on "how" are the vitual aliens unified. If they are all just living individuals in a virtual world, like a matrix, I could see how they would still want out. But if they were truly consolidated, in a single consciousness, maybe their persepctive would be entirely different. 

You're talking about the reapers as "the perfect entity", that they know everything there is to know, have done all there is to do etc. But COME ON! They're only, as far as we know, present in the Milky Way. One galaxy. Out who-knows-how-many. The way I look at the term "Evolution" is to expand, in every possible way. Why limit ourselves to one single galaxy, when there's a whole universe to see? Why a single universe? Sure, as we know it today it's impossible to actually reach another galaxy within one or even a hundred lifetimes, but who knows? All I'm saying is, why choose to become a reaper, knowing that the only thing you'll do for the rest of eternity is to **** up other species life, when you could be doing so much more?

Between chance and repeating the same thing for the rest of eternity? I'd pick chance every time.

[robarcool]

Such threads keep appearing every once in a while.

Modifié par robarcool, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[Arkitekt]

Undertone wrote...

Zakatak757 wrote...

I'm not relying on genocidal monsters to progress my race. Legion has got the game of life down to business.

"We build our own future."
"What future are the Geth building?"
"...ours."

Legion's a retard - by his logic you wouldn't have all the other species technology which means - no EDI, no Thanix, no shields, etcetera. Hell humanity wouldn't have even used the Prothean cache and join the galactic community.

I see you are unable to make the distinction between being ascended through an holocaust and being ascended through your own actions, hardships, desires and choices. Choices involve getting some independence of thought, but also learning about other's technologies. My thoughts are my own.

Not to mention your suicide mission would be a big mess resulting in a lot of casualties.

Yeah, let's all give in to the holocause, since the deaths will be in far less numbers.... oh wait, what? [FACEDESK]

And I always love when someone tries to be smart and says something along the lines - I will live free or die. Bahaha, can you explain me what freedom is? And how do you get it? And how do you keep it? I will bet 5 bucks that you sacrifice your principles and morals on a *daily* basis to get what you want or to advance in some aspect or form in life. So please enough with the cliche lines. 

If you don't know what freedom is, I wonder why are you even here trying to debate with anyone, since it's all been determined for you by your own genes and barbaric desires. And since you have clearly defined yourself as a mindless zombie that is unable to consciously choose paths freely, I will just avoid talking with you before you try to eat my brain.

[Arkitekt]

robarcool wrote...

Such threads keep appearing every once in a while.

And these comments appear all the time.<_<

[Sir Edric]

Arkitekt wrote...

robarcool wrote...

Such threads keep appearing every once in a while.

And these comments appear all the time.<_<

Hey, someone has to state the obvious.

[AlexXIV]

Vrex_12 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

robarcool wrote...

Such threads keep appearing every once in a while.

And these comments appear all the time.<_<

Hey, someone has to state the obvious.

Actually no. Nobody needs to state the obvious. Maybe with the exception of Captain Obvious.

[Arkitekt]

Of course they do, trolls are everywhere.