240 réponses à ce sujet

[Grey34]

Aradace wrote...

Undertone wrote...

So you served in the military. Okay, cool. I also did. But you didn't answer my question. Obtaining and sustaining freedom has everything to do with morals - whether you sacrifice them or not. Why? Because the method through which you obtain this so called freedom is important. I should know considering my people were slaves for 5 centuries, not so long ago actually.

I didnt answer the question because it's irrelevant.  Morals has nothing to do with sustaining it despite what you may think.  Why? Because regardless of any ideal you may have, you WILL have to sacrafice Morals and/or Principles to do so.  That is why I didnt answer the question.  When it comes to freedom, you do whatever it takes to obtain and sustain it. WHATEVER it takes.  The ends always justify the means when it comes to freedom.  If you have to sacrafice an entire species/race/whatnot to do so, then so be it.  But that's not to say that sacrafice would be shrugged off and forgotten at the first chance like it was an easy choice to make.

it is relevent because you represent that freedom  if you throw out moral's and principals your not serving a good example to the country and others. by doing that your showing the world its okay to wipe out a race without looking for the alternative action.  the army and the police represents the people and those actions made reflects on to us.

[AlexXIV]

Nyoka wrote...

Can someone who frequents the DA2 forums tell me if there are multiple threads stating that we should join the Qun?

DA2 forum story section. I can find a link in a minute.

Edit: Link

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[Grey34]

Arkitekt wrote...

Was Saphra cloned? Or is indoctrination spreading?

Either way, we must kill this husk before he spreads the disease.

by not posting your letting it die of exposure

[SalsaDMA]

To be honest, even without indoctrination some people would join the reapers just because:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism

[Aradace]

Grey34 wrote...
it is relevent because you represent that freedom  if you throw out moral's and principals your not serving a good example to the country and others. by doing that your showing the world its okay to wipe out a race without looking for the alternative action.  the army and the police represents the people and those actions made reflects on to us.

Im going to let you have that one because Im not even going to begin to describe the horrors committed in Iraq and Afganastan.  Or WWII.  Or Vietnam.  Because obviously you have some sort of skewed vision of what actually went on over there.  Far be it from me to be the one to burst that bubble.  Because what you just described, is an ideal, and not reality.

Modifié par Aradace, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:21 .

[Aradace]

Nyoka wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Grey34 wrote...
it is relevent because you represent that freedom  if you throw out moral's and principals your not serving a good example to the country and others. by doing that your showing the world its okay to wipe out a race without looking for the alternative action.  the army and the police represents the people and those actions made reflects on to us.

Im going to let you have that one because Im not even going to begin to describe the horrors committed in Iraq and Afganastan.  Or WWII.  Or Vietnam.  Because obviously you have some sort of skewed vision of what actually went on over there.  Far be it from me to be the one to burst that bubble.  Because what you just described, is an ideal, and not reality.

No wonder the reapers are interested in us, hmm?

Not sure if you're agreeing, disagreeing, or simply making a general statement.  Either way, I agree with that.  It probably IS why they are interested.  For better or worse.

[Arkitekt]

SalsaDMA wrote...

To be honest, even without indoctrination some people would join the reapers just because:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism

Oh look another one who didn't get it. I'm sure transhumanists will all line up to be shredded by a machine which will analyse your brain and upload what it chooses as the best things that can form a reaperized ascended transhuman creature. A pity that you won't survive it and actually suffer for the few seconds that you'll be conscious about it.

Oh wait, that's kinda stupid.

[SalsaDMA]

Arkitekt wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

To be honest, even without indoctrination some people would join the reapers just because:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism

Oh look another one who didn't get it. I'm sure transhumanists will all line up to be shredded by a machine which will analyse your brain and upload what it chooses as the best things that can form a reaperized ascended transhuman creature. A pity that you won't survive it and actually suffer for the few seconds that you'll be conscious about it.

Oh wait, that's kinda stupid.

I find it funny you seem to try and insult me, despite I made no comments on you, nor actually made a remark as to what I myself thought of the idea.

What can I say? "nice show, chap" ?

/facepalm

But yes, considering uploading is being dug into by some of the transhumanists, there certainly would be people willing to be gooified if that was part of the upload process.

[Arkitekt]

Please point me where I personally insulted you. And no, I do not think you'll find anyone who will agree that "ascension through death" will call themselves transhumanists. Perhaps cultists of some deranged religion.

[Grey34]

Aradace wrote...

Grey34 wrote...
it is relevent because you represent that freedom  if you throw out moral's and principals your not serving a good example to the country and others. by doing that your showing the world its okay to wipe out a race without looking for the alternative action.  the army and the police represents the people and those actions made reflects on to us.

Im going to let you have that one because Im not even going to begin to describe the horrors committed in Iraq and Afganastan.  Or WWII.  Or Vietnam.  Because obviously you have some sort of skewed vision of what actually went on over there.  Far be it from me to be the one to burst that bubble.  Because what you just described, is an ideal, and not reality.

sorry i shouldve explain it more probably its 1 at night where i am and im tired and having debates in other forums its sad that it leaked into a game forum lol. yeah i know its ideal  and not practice in reality.  oh i know what happen in iraq and afghanistan  i protested against that cause i knew the horrors that was unleashed. and Vietnam i devouted my time on that to what happened in vietnam is still being released today.  im just saying that the actions that the army did in those wars caused alot of hatred towards said countries. we should be mindful of our actions, but like you said in reality it doesn't, it should but it doesn't   

[SalsaDMA]

Arkitekt wrote...

Please point me where I personally insulted you. And no, I do not think you'll find anyone who will agree that "ascension through death" will call themselves transhumanists. Perhaps cultists of some deranged religion.

The "oh look another one that didn't get it." remark...

Sounded like an insult, tbh.

[Arkitekt]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Please point me where I personally insulted you. And no, I do not think you'll find anyone who will agree that "ascension through death" will call themselves transhumanists. Perhaps cultists of some deranged religion.

The "oh look another one that didn't get it." remark...

Sounded like an insult, tbh.

It's not. It's an assertion of fact. You didn't get it. I know nothing about you, your intelligence, etc. You could have been distracted for all I know. I hope so.

[SalsaDMA]

Arkitekt wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Please point me where I personally insulted you. And no, I do not think you'll find anyone who will agree that "ascension through death" will call themselves transhumanists. Perhaps cultists of some deranged religion.

The "oh look another one that didn't get it." remark...

Sounded like an insult, tbh.

It's not. It's an assertion of fact. You didn't get it. I know nothing about you, your intelligence, etc. You could have been distracted for all I know. I hope so.

What's there not to get?

There are people today advocating for transhumanism, sparking debates about ethics and the controversies that tag along with the various paths of theoretical applications that they can think of.

Nano technology and uploading of the mind to hardware as well as aid from AI's are already on the agenda for some transhumanists, and yet you think these people would somehow stop existing in the future? In a future where gene therapy have already been used extensively to prolong lifetimes of people?

I really doubt it.

There would be people willing to be reaperfied without needing to be indoctrinated because it would fit with their ideology. And they wouldn't necesarily be deranged cultists as you think, but sane logical thinking people that just happen to arive to the conclusion that getting reaperfied is the 'superior' solution.

I wouldn't personally choose it, but I acknowledge the fact that some people would. Ignoring those people would be silly, and possibly dangerous if their agenda was opposite to yours.

[Zkyire]

Neverdyne wrote...

Think of it. What is the purpose of our civilization? What is the purpose of technological and social progress? Is it to make our lives eternal? To know all there is to know about the universe? To reach perfect harmony in our existence? Don't we, deep inside, wish to not be alone? The Reapers are the answer, they are giving us a shortcut to achieving every civilization's ultimate goals.

The more we find out about them, the more it points to them being the ultimate destination of organic life as we know it. Think about it:

+ They are each a nation, a consolidated counciousness of billions of members of a species. "True unity" as Legion put it. The ultimate "social" goal. To be many, and one at the same time. No longer will you be alone, no longer will we fight each other over petty differences and selfishness. We will be united in an intimate way. Their unity prevents wars, prevents genocides, crime, murders, theft, loneliness, etc. They have solved the social dilema. Civilizations as we know them are too fragile, nuclear wars, holocausts; they self destruct. The Reapers solved this.

+ They are the pinnacle of technological progress, as far as we know. The consolidated knowledge of an infinte number of species. The ultimate "progress" goal. They are more capable of surviving natural disasters, scarcity of resources, etc., than any civilization will ever be. Every organic life tries to survive, from the smallest bacteria to the largest mammal, our natural purpose as a species is to survive. Becoming a Reaper is the best chance we have.

+ They are immortal. Organic species, who achieved eternal lives. Is that not what sapient species desire? Would you not choose immortality over a meaningless (in the grand scale of time, a.k.a. billions of years) temporal life? The ultimate "life" goal.

Now think of this scenario. An organic civilization that lived millions of years ago had these same goals. Maybe they saw how other civilizations destroyed themselves (like Krogan), maybe they predicted the perils of the natural universe (like dark matter consuming stars). Be whatever it may be. They achieved the technological level that made them capable of solving these problems; they reached those three ultimate goals pointed above in the only way the fisical laws of the universe permit them to be solved: becoming a Reaper. 

And so when they noticed new organic sapient life take to the stars after them, in an act of kindness they would spare them the thousands, maybe even millions of years that would take for them to reach this ultimate goal of existence by themselves. They would make them Reapers. Give them a shortcut. 

What would happen with the resources of our galaxy if, instead of an hibernating species like the reapers, who spend most of their time sleeping outside the galaxy, they would have let normal civilizations like humans spread and consume resources? After millions of years, would there be any left? Would the chance of new sapient species appearing in the galaxy be destroyed? Would that not be slfish? That a single species, say humans, spread across the galaxy and through millions of years consume all resources, negating the chance of new sapient species to arise? 

TL;DR The Reapers are good. We should join with them.

Except that you wont exist.

They'll melt you down, alongside everyone else into a pile of goo.

[Arkitekt]

So you still don't get it.

No. Transhumanists are not people who will sacrifice their own consciousness in order to build a post-human machine. They are people who are willling to transfer themselves into such a machine (some of them). There's a whole world of difference here, and there's also the moral issue too.

I also doubt that a transhumanist would be ideologically compatible with joining with a race of holocaust-creating devil machines.

So no, you still don't get it.

[SalsaDMA]

As far as we know, the entities that make up a reaper still exists.

After all, they are each a nation. Do you stop being a single being because you live in a nation with a national army? I would presume not, and neither would the individual beings inside a reaper.

This is further evidenced by Legions statements about what the reapers are, and also hinted at by the descriptions of indoctrinations where it is lots of 'voices' that affect people, and not a singular entity.

So no, the people uploading themselves to a reaper are not necesarily sacrificing their own consciousness, they are just adopting a new physical form that allows them to basicly live forever and at the same time allow easy communication with the others that took the same choice.

Edit: think of it like htis: 20 people upload themselves to the same mainframe. They still exist as seperate entities on the mainframe, but the mainframe is also all of them. If you adress the mainframe, and communicate with the mainframe, you communicate with them all. If you can figure out to adress the single entities in the mainframe you can still do that, but for an outsider figuring out how to do this might be hard, especially if the residents of the mainframe aren't helping you with the project.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 27 septembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[SalsaDMA]

As an added kicker, this means that for a transhumanist, Shepard basicly murdered every single colonist that was abducted by the collectors...

[Zkyire]

SalsaDMA wrote...

As far as we know, the entities that make up a reaper still exists.

After all, they are each a nation. Do you stop being a single being because you live in a nation with a national army? I would presume not, and neither would the individual beings inside a reaper.

This is further evidenced by Legions statements about what the reapers are, and also hinted at by the descriptions of indoctrinations where it is lots of 'voices' that affect people, and not a singular entity.

So no, the people uploading themselves to a reaper are not necesarily sacrificing their own consciousness, they are just adopting a new physical form that allows them to basicly live forever and at the same time allow easy communication with the others that took the same choice.

Edit: think of it like htis: 20 people upload themselves to the same mainframe. They still exist as seperate entities on the mainframe, but the mainframe is also all of them. If you adress the mainframe, and communicate with the mainframe, you communicate with them all. If you can figure out to adress the single entities in the mainframe you can still do that, but for an outsider figuring out how to do this might be hard, especially if the residents of the mainframe aren't helping you with the project.

Because having your body liquified preserves your thoughts and memories, right?

They're not being 'uploaded' they're being killed. Melted to death. What about the Human Reaper. Made from humans, yet so eager to kill you without so much as a word? What about all the other Reapers? They'd resent the other Reapers for destroying their civilisations/slaughtering trillions. Yet they work together in harmony. That does not indicate that the people remain. They're dead, Jim.

[Arkitekt]

SalsaDMA wrote...

As far as we know, the entities that make up a reaper still exists.

False. Harbinger states clearly that they are "our salvation through our destruction". I.e., they kill the village in order to save it. Thanks but no thanks.

After all, they are each a nation. Do you stop being a single being because you live in a nation with a national army? I would presume not, and neither would the individual beings inside a reaper.

You still fail to see the difference between being killed and cut off (i.e., your world ends right there), while what is left of your memories and experiences, etc., get uploaded like a hard drive disk (and processed, etc.), and being "transferred" to a higher state of mental being (or any other new age techno shenanigan).

This is further evidenced by Legions statements about what the reapers are, and also hinted at by the descriptions of indoctrinations where it is lots of 'voices' that affect people, and not a singular entity.

So no, the people uploading themselves to a reaper are not necesarily sacrificing their own consciousness, they are just adopting a new physical form that allows them to basicly live forever and at the same time allow easy communication with the others that took the same choice.

This does not correlate to what Harbinger said. Legion's statement is irrelevant, since the Geth do not actually "die" like us, and they don't even undersand "individuality" like we do (hint: his difficulty to choose a name other than his name "Geth"). Yes, the new machine would be equivalent to post-mankind, but I would no longer exist.

Edit: think of it like htis: 20 people upload themselves to the same mainframe. They still exist as seperate entities on the mainframe, but the mainframe is also all of them. If you adress the mainframe, and communicate with the mainframe, you communicate with them all. If you can figure out to adress the single entities in the mainframe you can still do that, but for an outsider figuring out how to do this might be hard, especially if the residents of the mainframe aren't helping you with the project.

This is very fancy, but it's hardly convincing, since it's pure speculation. As far as the game tell us what is going on, this is not what is happening. It's still possible for ME3 to turn it around and make some retcons, I won't say it couldn't be done. It's just not what's hinted at. Death is what is expecting you from the moment you are processed and used to create a new reaper. Parts of you will "live", but it won't be you.

[SalsaDMA]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

As far as we know, the entities that make up a reaper still exists.

After all, they are each a nation. Do you stop being a single being because you live in a nation with a national army? I would presume not, and neither would the individual beings inside a reaper.

This is further evidenced by Legions statements about what the reapers are, and also hinted at by the descriptions of indoctrinations where it is lots of 'voices' that affect people, and not a singular entity.

So no, the people uploading themselves to a reaper are not necesarily sacrificing their own consciousness, they are just adopting a new physical form that allows them to basicly live forever and at the same time allow easy communication with the others that took the same choice.

Edit: think of it like htis: 20 people upload themselves to the same mainframe. They still exist as seperate entities on the mainframe, but the mainframe is also all of them. If you adress the mainframe, and communicate with the mainframe, you communicate with them all. If you can figure out to adress the single entities in the mainframe you can still do that, but for an outsider figuring out how to do this might be hard, especially if the residents of the mainframe aren't helping you with the project.

Because having your body liquified preserves your thoughts and memories, right?

They're not being 'uploaded' they're being killed. Melted to death. What about the Human Reaper. Made from humans, yet so eager to kill you without so much as a word? What about all the other Reapers? They'd resent the other Reapers for destroying their civilisations/slaughtering trillions. Yet they work together in harmony. That does not indicate that the people remain. They're dead, Jim.

Since neither of us understand the nanotechnology being used, I would be carefull about making definite statements like yours.

You asume they have died, but you cannot know. They stopped having a body in the normal sense, that is for sure, but since the debate of what the consciousness actually is will never find a resting place in our lifetime (at least as far as my own personal prediction will go), I find it a bit arogant of you to presume that you appearantly knows what it is and can asume to know 100% as well what the technology in a sci-fantasy story made by others entails...

People for the transformation process were needed alive, rather than dead. This is presumably for a reason, and why your theory of the colonists being dead just because they were transformed into another state you could not readily recognize needs to be supported by evidence from you; rather than you just stating "I don't recognize this, therefore they must be dead..."

If the process kills them anyway, why did they need to be alive in the first place?

There are several indications given that the reapers ARE in fact 'transcended' entities, and that their plans for humanity is to transcend that as well into one of them.

And as for your human reaper striking out: ever heard about survival instinct? Shepard was planning to blow the base to smithereens, and the human reaper along with it. He/she was with full intentions of killing the reaper without a second thought before the reaper struck, and you claim the reaper is the agressor in that incident when it strikes out at him? Whatever floats your boat then...

Also, you are not aware of every reaper in existence. You only heard about those that came to the conclusion to keep harvesting and kill others. You don't know if there are factinos within the reaper ranks. You also don't know any of the details of what they do or why they do things. Yet you are ready to make big asumptions based on practically nothing.

there's nothing wrong with fighting the reapers because their agenda is so alien to what you would prefer yourself. I would do it myself in the given situation. But some people would prefer the reapers solution, wether or not we would like it.

[Medhia Nox]

I agree that some portion of the human race should be handed over to the Reapers... and then the other portion should wipe the Reapers out.

[SalsaDMA]

Arkitekt wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

As far as we know, the entities that make up a reaper still exists.

False. Harbinger states clearly that they are "our salvation through our destruction". I.e., they kill the village in order to save it. Thanks but no thanks.

After all, they are each a nation. Do you stop being a single being because you live in a nation with a national army? I would presume not, and neither would the individual beings inside a reaper.

You still fail to see the difference between being killed and cut off (i.e., your world ends right there), while what is left of your memories and experiences, etc., get uploaded like a hard drive disk (and processed, etc.), and being "transferred" to a higher state of mental being (or any other new age techno shenanigan).

This is further evidenced by Legions statements about what the reapers are, and also hinted at by the descriptions of indoctrinations where it is lots of 'voices' that affect people, and not a singular entity.

So no, the people uploading themselves to a reaper are not necesarily sacrificing their own consciousness, they are just adopting a new physical form that allows them to basicly live forever and at the same time allow easy communication with the others that took the same choice.

This does not correlate to what Harbinger said. Legion's statement is irrelevant, since the Geth do not actually "die" like us, and they don't even undersand "individuality" like we do (hint: his difficulty to choose a name other than his name "Geth"). Yes, the new machine would be equivalent to post-mankind, but I would no longer exist.

Edit: think of it like htis: 20 people upload themselves to the same mainframe. They still exist as seperate entities on the mainframe, but the mainframe is also all of them. If you adress the mainframe, and communicate with the mainframe, you communicate with them all. If you can figure out to adress the single entities in the mainframe you can still do that, but for an outsider figuring out how to do this might be hard, especially if the residents of the mainframe aren't helping you with the project.

This is very fancy, but it's hardly convincing, since it's pure speculation. As far as the game tell us what is going on, this is not what is happening. It's still possible for ME3 to turn it around and make some retcons, I won't say it couldn't be done. It's just not what's hinted at. Death is what is expecting you from the moment you are processed and used to create a new reaper. Parts of you will "live", but it won't be you.

it would still be you, but your problem would be that while you were still an individual inside the mainframe/reaper, you would have to act in some form of unison to affect things outside the mainframe/reaper. Think of it like this: you got 4 people in a boat, each with their own respective oar. The 4 people are each an individual, but in order to get the boat moving anywhere, they will have to reach consensus about it. So while they retain individuality within the boat, they still act as a single entity (the boat) as far as moving around goes.

Thinking of New York as one city, and Chicago as another does not remove the individuality of the people within those cities. Just like thinking of Sovereign as one reaper and Harbinger as another reaper does not remove the individuality of the entities within each reaper.

[Arkitekt]

DMA, your theory is fancy, but again there is no evidence whatsoever of this, and all we are sure is that people "seem to suffer and die". I'll trust my eyes better than any reaper's mermaid voice.

You should be able to understand that failure to absolute falsification is not equal to make a convincing case. Harbinger clearly states that he is offering ascension through destruction. Unless you show me with evidence that my crew was actually fighting against me in the end of ME2, I won't trust your theory.

[Blacklash93]

Joining them is a purely selfish act. For every race the Reapers ascend, they completely eradicate 10 others. Not to mention all the people they'll kill of the race they're supposed to raise to their ranks when they invade.

Whatever you consider the Reapers' process of harvesting, you can't deny that they're anything but genocidal in other respects. Would you support that?