240 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkitekt]

SalsaDMA wrote...

it would still be you, but your problem would be that while you were still an individual inside the mainframe/reaper, you would have to act in some form of unison to affect things outside the mainframe/reaper. Think of it like this: you got 4 people in a boat, each with their own respective oar. The 4 people are each an individual, but in order to get the boat moving anywhere, they will have to reach consensus about it. So while they retain individuality within the boat, they still act as a single entity (the boat) as far as moving around goes.

Thinking of New York as one city, and Chicago as another does not remove the individuality of the people within those cities. Just like thinking of Sovereign as one reaper and Harbinger as another reaper does not remove the individuality of the entities within each reaper.

I understand your beliefs perfectly. You just have failed to prove that anyone's conscious actually survives the body's destruction. Many people say the most unfalsifiable things. And then they expect me to trust them because what they say is apparently self-consistent.

Hint, that's not enough.

[Someone With Mass]

Some people might join the Reapers out of desperation. I won't, because I don't think I'll be able to think or be what I am once I'm melted down.

[The Spamming Troll]

goo isnt anything more to me then a glass of milk.

id rather be the spamming troll, then a glass of goo. especially if im mixed in with the likes of no snakes alive or bozorgmehr!

[SalsaDMA]

Arkitekt wrote...

DMA, your theory is fancy, but again there is no evidence whatsoever of this, and all we are sure is that people "seem to suffer and die". I'll trust my eyes better than any reaper's mermaid voice.

You should be able to understand that failure to absolute falsification is not equal to make a convincing case. Harbinger clearly states that he is offering ascension through destruction. Unless you show me with evidence that my crew was actually fighting against me in the end of ME2, I won't trust your theory.

Your body is destroyed, so technically he is correct. Besides, there can't be anything left to save, be the salvation of, transcend if they destroyed the soul/mind as well. It brings up the age old debate of what the consciousness really is, and one that nobody alive can answer yet.

There's enough people that adamantly believe in the soul living on in some form after the body is dead, so with nanotechnology aiding the process it could theoretically be done. Provided you knew how to do it, of course.

And people claiming 'death' still haven't given any suggewstions to why people needed to be alive in order to be viable for transformation. The only reason can logically be because there is some condition present that is required for the transformation process to work, and if it was purely genetic material, this could be acomplished with 'dead tissue' as well.

And you should know better than to just 'trust your eyes' in this day and age. Your eyes can also tell you people "suffer and are hurt" when they get an injection with a big needle at the hospital, but usually that injection is to make them ultimately get better, despite the initial discomfort it provides.

[Aradace]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

goo isnt anything more to me then a glass of milk.

id rather be the spamming troll, then a glass of goo. especially if im mixed in with the likes of no snakes alive or bozorgmehr!

You should totally make that a handle here on the forums lol.  "Glass of Goo" 

[SalsaDMA]

Nyoka wrote...

The boat thing is a bad example. It would be a good example for a geth platform, not for a reaper. Legion can't do anything without reaching consensus first. That's why it can't decide what to do in its loyalty mission. Legions says "we are geth. there are currently 2133428947 programs within this platform", as opposed to Sovereign, who says "I am Sovereign".

When Legion is talking about "Nazara", it says "that was what the programs within the reaper called themselves". So they didn't call themselves Jim Babcoçk or whatever their former individual names may have been, they all called themselves Nazara. They are just nodes in a network, no individuality. Reapers clearly think as an individual, not as some consensus reaching multitude. The moment you get into the goo-vat, your individuality is gone. You forget yourself and become part of the hive mind.

(EDIT: wtf, the BSN blocked a made up last name...)

I can imagine iterating out the names of the millions of entities that a reaper consists of would get tiresome rather quickly when introducing yourself.

What is more plausible? "We are <starts reciting names>..." or "This is London calling..." ?

[Zkyire]

Arkitekt wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

it would still be you, but your problem would be that while you were still an individual inside the mainframe/reaper, you would have to act in some form of unison to affect things outside the mainframe/reaper. Think of it like this: you got 4 people in a boat, each with their own respective oar. The 4 people are each an individual, but in order to get the boat moving anywhere, they will have to reach consensus about it. So while they retain individuality within the boat, they still act as a single entity (the boat) as far as moving around goes.

Thinking of New York as one city, and Chicago as another does not remove the individuality of the people within those cities. Just like thinking of Sovereign as one reaper and Harbinger as another reaper does not remove the individuality of the entities within each reaper.

I understand your beliefs perfectly. You just have failed to prove that anyone's conscious actually survives the body's destruction. Many people say the most unfalsifiable things. And then they expect me to trust them because what they say is apparently self-consistent.

Hint, that's not enough.

Pretty much giving you an internet high-five for that.

[Medhia Nox]

"the moment you get into the goo-vat, your individuality is gone" - Nyoka

Sounds like American high school.

[Aradace]

Medhia Nox wrote...

"the moment you get into the goo-vat, your individuality is gone" - Nyoka

Sounds like American high school.

sounds almost sig worthy to me lol.

[SalsaDMA]

Nyoka wrote...

Thanks for ignoring the revealing difference between how the geth see themselves ("There is no individual. We are geth. There are currently 1183 programs within this platform") and how the reapers do it. ("I am Sovereign. I am Harbinger").

Not to mention Legion told you the programs in the reaper did not see themselves as individuals. They all saw themselves as the reaper, Nazara.

Using the boat analogy... I suppose when you're on a boat with some people and you call someone on the phone, you don't say "I am a boat", do you?

No...

I would pull out my flippiefloppies and yell: "I'm on a boat!"


Sorry, I couldn't resist it :innocent:

On the actual dbate, though, how you adress yourself depends on the circumstance. If you are representing yourself, at a social gathering, you probaly introduce yourself by your individual name. However, when you and your millions of friends in a nation introduce yourself at state-meeting you introduce yourself by the name of the nation.

Also, it can be argued how much individuality of the entities in the nation is seen from someone adressing the nation of the USA, for example, as compared if addressing a single individual in the nation of USA. Just look back at WW2 and the material released back then. Nations were used as means of adressing all the entities in that nation, regardless of their individuality. It's not an uncommon behaviour.

[Ultai]

Immortality huh. Well let's just hope our ship doesn't get obliterated on down the line by a klendagon type weapon. Or hope we don't decide to exert energy to control a thrall that gets killed by some alien that weakens our shields somehow through technobabble, then we get destroyed by a fleet. I'm sure there was someone like the OP for the species that made up Sovereign, too bad for them. I guess I just prefer the chaotic style of being an organic.

[Annihilator27]

JeffZero wrote...

annihilator27 wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

Neverdyne wrote...
The Reapers are the answer, they are giving us a shortcut to achieving every civilization's ultimate goals.

Tell that to the Protheans.

And every other species that was exterminated after being deemed unfit to continue over the many millions of years that the Reapers have practiced applied mass extinction.

I'll tell that to the next species im harvesting in my new Reaper body.

You're the Sith Lord! 

You mean Reaper lord? lol. I view them from a philosophical view.And no,Im not an expert lol.

[ddv.rsa]

Ultai wrote...

Immortality huh. Well let's just hope our ship doesn't get obliterated on down the line by a klendagon type weapon. Or hope we don't decide to exert energy to control a thrall that gets killed by some alien that weakens our shields somehow through technobabble, then we get destroyed by a fleet. I'm sure there was someone like the OP for the species that made up Sovereign, too bad for them. I guess I just prefer the chaotic style of being an organic.

This is an excellent point. Where's the defeatist response?

[Robbiesan]

Interesting post OP. I have to say no to it though. It simply reminds me of the Borg concept.

Humanity is perfectly capable of changing the way we live, and be in harmony with our world and Universe. This will take a shift in perspective of how we see ourselves in relation to each other, let alone other life forms. It is true that humanity's ways currently appear as a virus (ala The Matrix), multiplying like bunnies and consuming valuable resources with little to no concern for this world or future generations. Humanity can pull it off - a new way of Being.

With regard to the ability to live forever, I would have to ask: why would you want that? It may sound like a good idea, but perhaps it is not as good as it may sound.

[Arkitekt]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Your body is destroyed, so technically he is correct. Besides, there can't be anything left to save, be the salvation of, transcend if they destroyed the soul/mind as well. It brings up the age old debate of what the consciousness really is, and one that nobody alive can answer yet.

There's enough people that adamantly believe in the soul living on in some form after the body is dead, so with nanotechnology aiding the process it could theoretically be done. Provided you knew how to do it, of course.

As I said, apart from religious cultists who would have faith in beings that have shown nothing else but abhorrent moral values, I don't see transhumanists jumping to the void like you propose.

And people claiming 'death' still haven't given any suggewstions to why people needed to be alive in order to be viable for transformation. The only reason can logically be because there is some condition present that is required for the transformation process to work, and if it was purely genetic material, this could be acomplished with 'dead tissue' as well.

I sincerely hope you are not implying that I could survive if my genes survive... I don't dismiss all the possibilities. Everything's possible with reaper tech. That's not the point. The point is that the alternative is equally possible, if not more so. And given the despicable morality of these beings, I really don't see transhumanists giving them the chance.

And you should know better than to just 'trust your eyes' in this day and age. Your eyes can also tell you people "suffer and are hurt" when they get an injection with a big needle at the hospital, but usually that injection is to make them ultimately get better, despite the initial discomfort it provides.

If you won't recognize an obvious call for critical empiricism for what it is, and instead resort to childish rethorical devices, I'm done with you.

[capn233]

While Sovereign uses singular pronouns. possessive adjectives, etc:

"You touch my mind fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."
"I am Sovereign."

Oddly Harbinger uses both singular and plural
"The forces of the universe bend to me."
"I am limitless"

then this:

"We are Harbinger"

That is distinct from the "We are the harbingers of your destruction" line

I wouldn't make the assumption that ascendance is anything like retaining your individuality. Legion goes over this with you when discussing Nazara. "One ship, one will, many minds. Like the Geth..." Even the Geth had at least one great schism so their consensus building did not ultimately end in a singular will. The point of that conversation was not to analyze the Reaper in great detail anyway, it was actually about the Nazara and the Geth's relationship. At any rate, it is a leap to assume that what he said means that Nazara is exactly like the geth and that there is any consensus building between these minds. Especially given that the two that we interact with have a pretty strong will. Additionally, why would the ascended minds jump on the Reaper bandwagon? Because they were defeated and had nothing better to do?

If I was going to speculate I don't think I would tend to believe that there is any individuality left and that it seems more likely that the uploaded minds are modified or indoctrinated and don't really retain any real identity or free will. They would be more analogous to a Borg drone then perhaps even a geth process, except that they don't have their original body any longer.

Modifié par capn233, 27 septembre 2011 - 10:32 .

[Arkitekt]

As long as there is no Borg Queen equivalent, I'll probably be fine with whatever they come up with...

[capn233]

Arkitekt wrote...

As long as there is no Borg Queen equivalent, I'll probably be fine with whatever they come up with...

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't exactly thinking of a queen.  Unlike the Borg, we would assume that each reaper is not linked to each other, unlike how all the Borg are basically a single mind.

The analogy I was making was that the minds in a single reaper may not have free will which is like the Borg, and somewhat unlike the Geth.  As to why that may be and whether it is because there is tech that subjugates the will of the minds has not been stated as of yet.

The geth were simple programs that were made to share data in order for self optimization, and eventually they formed a "single gestalt intellect."  They build consensus.  Organic minds don't really even work like that, if they were ascended as is why are they now of "one will?"  Why decide to tow the party line?

Modifié par capn233, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Ultai wrote...

Immortality huh. Well let's just hope our ship doesn't get obliterated on down the line by a klendagon type weapon. Or hope we don't decide to exert energy to control a thrall that gets killed by some alien that weakens our shields somehow through technobabble, then we get destroyed by a fleet. I'm sure there was someone like the OP for the species that made up Sovereign, too bad for them. I guess I just prefer the chaotic style of being an organic.

This is an excellent point. Where's the defeatist response?

The universe is not a paradise. There are no guarantees. Die now or maybe die later. Your choice.

Except those aren't the only options...