472 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then think about how much damage a mage in a car can cause, before being stopped....

People are held responsible for crimes they commit, not crimes they could potentially commit. 

Which is why mages are being held responsible for the magic they possess, even if it weren't their choice.

If you own a car, you are expected to drive responsibly.

If you own a gun, you are expected to handle it responsibly.

If you can do magic, you are expected to be able to do so responsibly.

In Thedas, the commonly accepted way of handling your magic responsibly, is to join the Circles.

And you're missing the difference. 

In the case of the car or gun, you're talking about choices.  In the case of magic, you're talking about an accident of birth. 

In the case of the car or gun, the irresponsible use is something the person has already done.  In the case of magic, the irresponsible use is something that the people of Thedas are afraid might happen. 

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I consider it this way:

If there were a group of people who, through no fault or choice of their own, were born with irremovable high caliber machine guns with infinite ammunition grafted to their arms, wouldn't any responsible authority regulate or at the very least keep tabs on those people?

The Chantry might go a bit too far, but they are a legitimate danger and could kill someone quite easily with little more than a fit of anger and you can't simply take away their weapons. It's a problem, and I don't think the Chantry does it right, but I don't think total Mage freedom is a rational option either.

from what I've seen, no one has been advocating total mage freedom on here.

you know, as soon as Thedas gets some form of a flamethrower, mages will hardly be as big a threat as the people believe they are. People will be just as much of a threat.

It doesn't even have to be a modern day type of flamethrower. Some archaic form of a flamethrower similar to Greek Fire like flamethrowers would be enough.

I'm not so sure.  There are quite a large number of people on these boards that seem content to decry the situation of mages without suggesting an alternative.

A flamethrower can run out of fuel and a Mage can't put down their weapon.  Mages will always be a threat, if only because they're living weapons.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I consider it this way:

If there were a group of people who, through no fault or choice of their own, were born with irremovable high caliber machine guns with infinite ammunition grafted to their arms, wouldn't any responsible authority regulate or at the very least keep tabs on those people?

The Chantry might go a bit too far, but they are a legitimate danger and could kill someone quite easily with little more than a fit of anger and you can't simply take away their weapons. It's a problem, and I don't think the Chantry does it right, but I don't think total Mage freedom is a rational option either.

from what I've seen, no one has been advocating total mage freedom on here.

you know, as soon as Thedas gets some form of a flamethrower, mages will hardly be as big a threat as the people believe they are. People will be just as much of a threat.

It doesn't even have to be a modern day type of flamethrower. Some archaic form of a flamethrower similar to Greek Fire like flamethrowers would be enough.

I'm not so sure.  There are quite a large number of people on these boards that seem content to decry the situation of mages without suggesting an alternative.

A flamethrower can run out of fuel and a Mage can't put down their weapon.  Mages will always be a threat, if only because they're living weapons.

True, not many people really propose better solutions. Only a few do (myself among them). I've proposed an alternative many times on these forums that was considered a good starting point by other posters, though I don't really want to type it all out again .


And yes, a flamethrower can run out of fuel, but so can a mage. A mage has to use his own willpower to power the spells, and if he uses too much of his willpower, he dies. So they have to be careful to not do that.

Wynne is a case in point of what happens when you use all of your will. When she talks about her confrontation with the demon attacking Petra, she says that she used all of her will and that was what killed her. Luckily, her guardian angel known as Faith swooped in for the rescue and brought her back to life.

....which reminds me. While people may say that Leliana's death and resurrection is comic book like, people die in our world and are brought back to life, though this usually happens in hospitals. Still, a person will have technically been dead for however long until they were brought back.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I consider it this way:

If there were a group of people who, through no fault or choice of their own, were born with irremovable high caliber machine guns with infinite ammunition grafted to their arms, wouldn't any responsible authority regulate or at the very least keep tabs on those people?

The Chantry might go a bit too far, but they are a legitimate danger and could kill someone quite easily with little more than a fit of anger and you can't simply take away their weapons. It's a problem, and I don't think the Chantry does it right, but I don't think total Mage freedom is a rational option either.

from what I've seen, no one has been advocating total mage freedom on here.

you know, as soon as Thedas gets some form of a flamethrower, mages will hardly be as big a threat as the people believe they are. People will be just as much of a threat.

It doesn't even have to be a modern day type of flamethrower. Some archaic form of a flamethrower similar to Greek Fire like flamethrowers would be enough.

I'm not so sure.  There are quite a large number of people on these boards that seem content to decry the situation of mages without suggesting an alternative.

A flamethrower can run out of fuel and a Mage can't put down their weapon.  Mages will always be a threat, if only because they're living weapons.

True, not many people really propose better solutions. Only a few do (myself among them). I've proposed an alternative many times on these forums that was considered a good starting point by other posters, though I don't really want to type it all out again .


And yes, a flamethrower can run out of fuel, but so can a mage. A mage has to use his own willpower to power the spells, and if he uses too much of his willpower, he dies. So they have to be careful to not do that.

Wynne is a case in point of what happens when you use all of your will. When she talks about her confrontation with the demon attacking Petra, she says that she used all of her will and that was what killed her. Luckily, her guardian angel known as Faith swooped in for the rescue and brought her back to life.

....which reminds me. While people may say that Leliana's death and resurrection is comic book like, people die in our world and are brought back to life, though this usually happens in hospitals. Still, a person will have technically been dead for however long until they were brought back.

  Still, no flamethrower would be as deadly as a decently powerful mage.  I know that were I head of security for such and such VIP, I wouldn't want to bring that person within a mile of a mage, largely because they can't be disarmed.

[The Baconer]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm not so sure.  There are quite a large number of people on these boards that seem content to decry the situation of mages without suggesting an alternative.

Because there doesn't need to be an alternative. Those of greater capacity need not be constrained by the feeble.

[Everwarden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So mages aren't expected to learn and master their magic in the Circles?... I guess all the Circles didn't get that memo....

Circles do more than educate mages in control, they're prisons. Mages are jailed for a crime they could possibly commit if they leave, and denied basic human rights. 

If you own a car, you are expected to drive responsibly.

Yes. You go in for a one hour test, pass or fail, and go on with your life possessing a license to drive (or fail and retake the test at a later date). The Circle doesn't give out magic licenses, it imprisons people for something beyond their control. Your analogy completely fails. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 03 octobre 2011 - 02:51 .

[Heimdall]

The Baconer wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm not so sure.  There are quite a large number of people on these boards that seem content to decry the situation of mages without suggesting an alternative.

Because there doesn't need to be an alternative. Those of greater capacity need not be constrained by the feeble.

Those of greater capacity have apparently done a very poor job of defeating the so called feeble.

[The Baconer]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Those of greater capacity have apparently done a very poor job of defeating the so called feeble.

"So how is gearing all this going to help? You've already lost all the circles."

They just needed some motivation.

[Heimdall]

Everwarden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So mages aren't expected to learn and master their magic in the Circles?... I guess all the Circles didn't get that memo....

Circles do more than educate mages in control, they're prisons. Mages are jailed for a crime they could possibly commit if they leave, and denied basic human rights.

Mages are jailed because they're living weapons that could go off with a stray thought.  The Circles were started by Mages, recall, to provide a safe controlled environment where they would be allowed to study magic.  Mages are sent there not only for containment but to safely learn to control their abilities.  Yes, a circle is a prison, but mages are hardly imprisoned without any reason to worry about them.

If you own a car, you are expected to drive responsibly.

Yes. You go in for a one hour test, pass or fail, and go on with your life possessing a license to drive (or fail and retake the test at a later date). The Circle doesn't give out magic licenses, it imprisons people for something beyond their control. Your analogy completely fails. 

It imprisons people because that thing beyond their control is incredibly dangerous.

[TJPags]

The Baconer wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm not so sure.  There are quite a large number of people on these boards that seem content to decry the situation of mages without suggesting an alternative.

Because there doesn't need to be an alternative. Those of greater capacity need not be constrained by the feeble.

And this is why a lot of people want to see mages locked up.

Maker help the poor regular "feeble" people if a mage wants to do something.

[Heimdall]

The Baconer wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Those of greater capacity have apparently done a very poor job of defeating the so called feeble.

"So how is gearing all this going to help? You've already lost all the circles."

They just needed some motivation.

It just took them centuries and centuries.

[Everwarden]

Lord Aesir wrote...
It imprisons people because that thing beyond their control is incredibly dangerous.

Yes, they're dangerous. They still have a right to live free until they do something that merits punishment (after they get their 'mage license', naturally). 

It just took them centuries and centuries.

A testament to their restraint, no? Clearly they were capable of breaking free the entire time. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:29 .

[The Baconer]

TJPags wrote...
Maker help the poor regular "feeble" people if a mage wants to do something.

That's how life works. Not all organisms are born equal. Those at the bottom of the food chain have always been exploited by those at the top.

Lord Aesir wrote...
It just took them centuries and centuries.

I imagine centuries and centuries of culling and indoctrination will do that.

[TEWR]

It imprisons people because that thing beyond their control is incredibly dangerous.

Except it isn't beyond their control. A mage can go their whole lifetime without becoming a murderous, insane, rampaging Abomination or murdering people with their powers. Wynne, Malcolm Hawke, Irving, and Merrill and other mages are cases in point.

Magic is beyond the control of most children, but through training they can master their gift. All they need to remember afterwards is to never let their guard down when dealing with demons, because that's how a demon will possess them, be it in the Fade or in the mortal world.

Almost all mages that deal with demons thinking "Oh I can't be possessed!". And it's that arrogance that leads them to become possessed.

Personally, I'd advise all mages to avoid dealing with demons entirely (unless they're trapped like Audacity). But they will encounter mages in the Fade (how often we really don't know), so they just need to not let their guard down when they do encounter the demons in the Fade.

[TJPags]

The Baconer wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Maker help the poor regular "feeble" people if a mage wants to do something.

That's how life works. Not all organisms are born equal. Those at the bottom of the food chain have always been exploited by those at the top.

Yup - and sometimes those people who think they're so superior wind up locked away in a tower with armed guards, specially trained to handle them.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It imprisons people because that thing beyond their control is incredibly dangerous.

Except it isn't beyond their control. A mage can go their whole lifetime without becoming a murderous, insane, rampaging Abomination or murdering people with their powers. Wynne, Malcolm Hawke, Irving, and Merrill and other mages are cases in point.

Magic is beyond the control of most children, but through training they can master their gift. All they need to remember afterwards is to never let their guard down when dealing with demons, because that's how a demon will possess them, be it in the Fade or in the mortal world.

Almost all mages that deal with demons thinking "Oh I can't be possessed!". And it's that arrogance that leads them to become possessed.

Personally, I'd advise all mages to avoid dealing with demons entirely (unless they're trapped like Audacity). But they will encounter mages in the Fade (how often we really don't know), so they just need to not let their guard down when they do encounter the demons in the Fade.

Actually, I was refering to he fact that they had it as out of their control.  Not the ability itself.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 03 octobre 2011 - 04:11 .

[Heimdall]

Everwarden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
It imprisons people because that thing beyond their control is incredibly dangerous.

Yes, they're dangerous. They still have a right to live free until they do something that merits punishment (after they get their 'mage license', naturally).

I'm not bringing rights into it.  But consider, what does a mage have to do merit punishment?  Hijack another being's mind?  Rip a hole in the veil?  Become an abomination?  All these things will likely kill a good number of people before someone stops the mage.  A mage is a person... but also a living weapon more dangerous than anything else in Thedas.  All these things merit some thought.  I'm not advocating the Chantry here, I'm just saying their position isn't entirely unreasonable.

It just took them centuries and centuries.

A testament to their restraint, no? Clearly they were capable of breaking free the entire time. 

With massive casualties, just look at Kirkwall's circle.  The entire circle fought and brought many demons to the field, yet most of the Gallows was slaughtered regardless of your choice.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It imprisons people because that thing beyond their control is incredibly dangerous.

Except it isn't beyond their control. A mage can go their whole lifetime without becoming a murderous, insane, rampaging Abomination or murdering people with their powers. Wynne, Malcolm Hawke, Irving, and Merrill and other mages are cases in point.

Magic is beyond the control of most children, but through training they can master their gift. All they need to remember afterwards is to never let their guard down when dealing with demons, because that's how a demon will possess them, be it in the Fade or in the mortal world.

Almost all mages that deal with demons thinking "Oh I can't be possessed!". And it's that arrogance that leads them to become possessed.

Personally, I'd advise all mages to avoid dealing with demons entirely (unless they're trapped like Audacity). But they will encounter mages in the Fade (how often we really don't know), so they just need to not let their guard down when they do encounter the demons in the Fade.

Actually, I was refering to he fact that they had it as out of their control.  Not the ability itself.

This is true for many biological things that people in our world are born with (obviously being born with the ability to set a forest ablaze with the snap of a finger isn't one of them).

People can't help what their genetic makeup determines of their lives. Some people are born with a mental state of a serial killer and eventually become one because of that genetic makeup, often going uncaught for weeks or even months (there have been times when they were uncaught for years even!).

Others are born with more benign things like a high IQ. But as the saying goes "Insanity breeds creativity" (or is it "creativity breeds insanity"?). There are many quotes regarding the correlation between insanity and genius that could fit in here actually, but my favorite would have to be Edgar Allan Poe's:

Science has not yet taught us if madness is or is not the sublimity of the intelligence

Anyway, you can't control genetics and how they make you. This isn't something that's true to just mages. It's true for everyone in both our world and in the fictional world of Thedas. What you can control is how you control what your genetic makeup has made you be.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 octobre 2011 - 04:59 .

[Everwarden]

Lord Aesir wrote...
With massive casualties, just look at Kirkwall's circle.  The entire circle fought and brought many demons to the field, yet most of the Gallows was slaughtered regardless of your choice.

Kirkwall was a major center of Templar power, and the mages weren't prepared for the attack. Elsewhere, clearly, every Circle broke free independantly. That shows that the odds of a properly motivated Circle revolting successfully is near 100%. 

[MichaelFinnegan]

Satyricon331 wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
Let me state clearly what it is that I deny. I deny the position that the potential for becoming an abomination is the same as being an abomination. Or that magic in general is somehow to be construed as analogous to disease. Beyond that it is as I answered Phaonica above.

You used the analogy,

Did I now? I didn't address it in the last post. Let me do so here. What if I simply went along with it (for the sake of argument) so that I could get into some other point that was being addressed (such as getting at the quarantining aspect of it). A point was made (by the person I was addressing) in the very post that I was addressing (in which you claim that I "used" your analogy) about "not getting hung up on whether magic is or is not a disease" and I might have simply gone along with it. But the essential point is that you seem to be channeling all your energies into accusing me rather  than answering my questions.

and then claimed not to understand it with questions that look more like a fishing expedition than a genuine inquiry.

Let me ask you honestly. Do you or do you not realize that equating disease to magic and equating disease to being abominations are very different things, conveying very different meanings?

Don't tell me I don't have reason to wonder whether they were sincere.

Obviously I cannot tell you what reasons to use for whatever conclusions you might have formed. It is of your own volition. I can however take affront to being called insincere, which I am. Consider this my last reply to you regarding this topic.

If you want to say the two aren't analogous for a specific moral theory, I agree there are such theories.  I disagree there are no theories for which the analogy doesn't work.

As far as I was concerned, I was asking specific questions about the meanings of terms being equated. The ones which I believe you haven't addressed till now.

Of course it was just to show an analogy is possible.

Good then. Because we're truly done.

I've said several times I wasn't using the analogy to argue for any specific moral conclusion;
<snip>

I've already admitted my error regarding this. What is your point in continuing with it?

That was just to highlight that for me disease does not correspond to magic, in general. Looking at magic as some kind of an inborn disease is a skewed perception at best because there are other positive or negative aspects to magic. Being prone to demons is just one of the many aspects of being a mage.

If a theory views morality as a set of rights then that (deontological) theory doesn't care there are benefits to violating rights.  Since you subscribe to a moral view that considers benefits it's right you'd view the analogy as off-point for your theory.  But that issue has no bearing on a disagreement whether there are theories for which the analogy works.

I'd view the analogy as off point for my theory? What!? I simply told you that recognizing there might be similarities between being an abomination and having a disease, is not the same thing as having the ability to do magic (the "potential" to fall victim to a demon) and having a disease.

[Sir JK]

Everwarden wrote...
Kirkwall was a major center of Templar power, and the mages weren't prepared for the attack. Elsewhere, clearly, every Circle broke free independantly. That shows that the odds of a properly motivated Circle revolting successfully is near 100%.

We don't know this. We know the circles one after another declared independence and that the mage war broke out. But we don't know the fates of individual circles. The statements Varric says would remain true even if 90 % of all andrastian mages in Thedas would be killed and the rest spread out to fight a guerilla war in the breaking with the Chantry.

[DKJaigen]

Sir JK wrote...

Everwarden wrote...
Kirkwall was a major center of Templar power, and the mages weren't prepared for the attack. Elsewhere, clearly, every Circle broke free independantly. That shows that the odds of a properly motivated Circle revolting successfully is near 100%.

We don't know this. We know the circles one after another declared independence and that the mage war broke out. But we don't know the fates of individual circles. The statements Varric says would remain true even if 90 % of all andrastian mages in Thedas would be killed and the rest spread out to fight a guerilla war in the breaking with the Chantry.

From what im gathering from all statements between varric and cassandra this doesnt sound likely. It seems that both sides fought themselves to standstill. But we simply have to wait till DA3

[Drasynd]

Addai67 wrote...

Then act like it.

Same to you...

So what?  Is all this based merely on anti-religious prejudice?  Codes of law have to have some basis, and they can be good or bad, but the person was arguing that there was no law.

Religion's task is to "advice and counsel" those that seek it, it should not rule over them (chantry is good example of this and if you need more then "welcome to the real world" this planet we are living on,  has more than enough examples).I judge religions based on all the available info, and thus far I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing or should I say reading.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the "laws" are unjust they need to be changed, but no one in Thedas would truly go against the Chantry (well I'm encouraged by Alistairs willingness to correct things).

There are plenty of alternative models for a place where mages can learn to control their powers (even the dreaded "boarding school" model), some of them good others not so good. Also to have the young apprentices family, if willing, in the picture would help aka visiting days and so on..

But to use any other possible model would require that the templars presence is severely limited aka not constantly glaring behind the mages back, whispering how their gift is a curse, etc..

I doubt the templars have enough self control for that. (Aneirin the healer from DAO is a good example)

The biggest problem with any alternative plan is that the place would, at minimum, need to have an outer and inner defence wall so zealots couldn't just come in and kill everyone. Also I do question the templars willingness to defend the mages if this would happen (Greagoir might but he isn't a zealot, Meredith would help the attackers).

Modifié par Drasynd, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mages' parents CAN visist, and take an active part in their chidlrens' lives.... Often tehy don't want to though.

[DKJaigen]

Lord Aesir wrote...


I'm not bringing rights into it.  But consider, what does a mage have to do merit punishment?  Hijack another being's mind?  Rip a hole in the veil?  Become an abomination?  All these things will likely kill a good number of people before someone stops the mage.  A mage is a person... but also a living weapon more dangerous than anything else in Thedas.  All these things merit some thought.  I'm not advocating the Chantry here, I'm just saying their position isn't entirely unreasonable.

No it does not merrit thought and its completely unreasonable to punish a people because they can be dangerous.
In our own world their people that are living weapons as well. These people are called soldiers and policemen.   Do we need to lock them up as well? (including me btw because im a cop).