472 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Porenferser wrote...

I was responding to the bull**** written in the first few posts (*I want to kill more templars*).

Also, you don't have to tell me.
Even I as a Templar-Supporter know that subjects like Alrik und Meredith have to be removed.
But I don't agree about what you say about the circle.
imO the Kirkwall-Circle was rotten to the root.
Just look at how many abominations and Bloodmages you have to fight at the end in the gallows.
That one scene really made me laugh, where the templars where about to execute that girl, crying *I am innocent! I have done nothing wrong* (or something like that) and moments later it turned into an Abomination:D
Yeah, pretty much nothing that you have done wrong^^

Oh, rest assured, your entire misbegotten order will die (or surrender, maybe, but that seems less likely).

[TastesLikeTNT]

It always gets so hot in these mage/templar threads.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:48 .

[jlb524]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You don't learn blood magic instantaniously. ALL the practioners we run into must have been using it even before the annulment were called, which only serves to proove that the Circle was rotten from the core. Make no mistake, even the Templars of Kirkwall were bad, but the broad consensus of "poor mages, they are oh so innocent" that seems to be accepted, is entirely wrong. The mages were just as much of the problem as the Templars.

So, some Circle mages possessing knowledge of blood magic (even if they don't use it) makes the entire Circkel 'rotten to the core'?

[Porenferser]

Xilizhra wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

I was responding to the bull**** written in the first few posts (*I want to kill more templars*).

Also, you don't have to tell me.
Even I as a Templar-Supporter know that subjects like Alrik und Meredith have to be removed.
But I don't agree about what you say about the circle.
imO the Kirkwall-Circle was rotten to the root.
Just look at how many abominations and Bloodmages you have to fight at the end in the gallows.
That one scene really made me laugh, where the templars where about to execute that girl, crying *I am innocent! I have done nothing wrong* (or something like that) and moments later it turned into an Abomination:D
Yeah, pretty much nothing that you have done wrong^^

Oh, rest assured, your entire misbegotten order will die (or surrender, maybe, but that seems less likely).

You've really hurt me now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

jlb524 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You don't learn blood magic instantaniously. ALL the practioners we run into must have been using it even before the annulment were called, which only serves to proove that the Circle was rotten from the core. Make no mistake, even the Templars of Kirkwall were bad, but the broad consensus of "poor mages, they are oh so innocent" that seems to be accepted, is entirely wrong. The mages were just as much of the problem as the Templars.

So, some Circle mages possessing knowledge of blood magic (even if they don't use it) makes the entire Circkel 'rotten to the core'?

Not just knowledge of. They got trainning in its use. When even the First Enchanter is an accomplished blood mage (which he is... You don't get to turn into a Harvester unless you got extensive knowledge of blood magic), there is something very wrong in the Circle. And when numerous mages within the Circle start casting blood magic, they seal their own fate.

[Xilizhra]

(which he is... You don't get to turn into a Harvester unless you got extensive knowledge of blood magic)

Something that you, having no idea how this works, simply made up.

And when numerous mages within the Circle start casting blood magic, they seal their own fate.

Which they don't unless you've already chosen to murder them.

[Porenferser]

Also, we are not only talking about blood mages, we are talking about a few dozens abominations too.
How do you defend them?
Abominations are evil and dangerous and must be purged.
There is no grey zone in this matter like there is partial with the blood mages.

Modifié par Porenferser, 29 septembre 2011 - 03:33 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

(which he is... You don't get to turn into a Harvester unless you got extensive knowledge of blood magic)

Something that you, having no idea how this works, simply made up.

ALL other magic takes years and years of trainning, there is no reason to believe that blood magic is any different.  You know what that is called? Logical deduction, a concept I'm sure you aren't familiar with.

Xilizhra wrote...

And when numerous mages within the Circle start casting blood magic, they seal their own fate.

Which they don't unless you've already chosen to murder them.

They don't start casting it publicly no. But they already had knowledge of it. Which is what seals their fate. While meredith's reasons for an annulment may be questionable, when the mages start casting blood magic, they simply prove that an annulment was needed. 

[jlb524]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not just knowledge of. They got trainning in its use. When even the First Enchanter is an accomplished blood mage (which he is... You don't get to turn into a Harvester unless you got extensive knowledge of blood magic), there is something very wrong in the Circle. And when numerous mages within the Circle start casting blood magic, they seal their own fate.

None of that is the same as 'using it to harm people'.

[Sidney]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You don't learn blood magic instantaniously. ALL the practioners we run into must have been using it even before the annulment were called, which only serves to proove that the Circle was rotten from the core. Make no mistake, even the Templars of Kirkwall were bad, but the broad consensus of "poor mages, they are oh so innocent" that seems to be accepted, is entirely wrong. The mages were just as much of the problem as the Templars.

This is what people can't seem to accept. There aren't "good guys" 100% on either side. Some of the mages are rotten just like some of the templars are rotten. Then like in the real world that rottenness feeds more alienation and confrontation.

There's nothing wrong, at least in a reasonable mage role play, with killing the mages you are asked to kill. You're not killing inoffensive or "normal" mages you are killing the criminals, psychos and evil-doers of the world. The whole point of a lot of the lore you find is wrapped up in explaining why the circle in kirkwall is so rotted and dangerous and why the templars can't win with increased vigilance and control but it isn't clear they understand that problem.

[Porenferser]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

Just continue, you'll get the chance to pick sides.

HA! HA! HA! HA!

Dito:D
DA2 offers as much choices and consequences as Call of Duty does.

[caradoc2000]

I repeat: you'll get the chance to pick sides.

[LobselVith8]

Porenferser wrote...

I was responding to the bull**** written in the first few posts (*I want to kill more templars*).

Also, you don't have to tell me.
Even I as a Templar-Supporter know that subjects like Alrik und Meredith have to be removed.
But I don't agree about what you say about the circle.
imO the Kirkwall-Circle was rotten to the root.

I don't think the narrative confirms that opinion, at least for me. I don't think there's sufficient evidence regarding the mages living in the Circle Tower to make a judgement about the populace living under templar rule, either in their favor or against them. We simply lack the necessary information to assess what they are like, since Hawke only encounters criminals - antagonists who are typically mentally disturbed, or insane.

Hawke primarily deals with insane mage antagonists (with the exception of Tevinter Magister Danarius, who may be a sadist but appears to be sane when he confronts Hawke about Fenris), who are typically outside of the Gallows, and many of whom have no known association with the Circle of Magi. I don't think the criminals who Hawke encounters support the idea that the hundreds of mages residing in the Circle of Kirkwall are also engaging in criminal behavior.

All I know is that the mages living at the Gallows are innocent of the act that transpires towards the end of Act III, and that's the basis of my decision.

Porenferser wrote...

Just look at how many abominations and Bloodmages you have to fight at the end in the gallows.

Isn't that game mechanics, since some abominations come up from thin air as though they were summoned, which one developer has addressed as not being part of the actual lore of Dragon Age? I'm not certain that the scenes where pro-mage Hawke is fighting some mages in that scenerio makes sense - is the narrative informing us that the blood mage who Hawke fights at the docks is really a pro-templar antagonist, after all?

Porenferser wrote...

That one scene really made me laugh, where the templars where about to execute that girl, crying *I am innocent! I have done nothing wrong* (or something like that) and moments later it turned into an Abomination:D
Yeah, pretty much nothing that you have done wrong^^

Technically, that scene contradicts lore, since mages aren't supposed to be able to enter the Fade while they are still conscious in the real world - which is why the Andrastian forces were able to massacre the Tevinter mages in Aeonar (since the Tevinter mages were in the Fade, and we see at Ostagar that the mages are clearly not aware of what's going on around them while they are in the Fade).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:31 .

[IanPolaris]

Sidney wrote...

There's nothing wrong, at least in a reasonable mage role play, with killing the mages you are asked to kill. You're not killing inoffensive or "normal" mages you are killing the criminals, psychos and evil-doers of the world. The whole point of a lot of the lore you find is wrapped up in explaining why the circle in kirkwall is so rotted and dangerous and why the templars can't win with increased vigilance and control but it isn't clear they understand that problem.

Really?  You must have read a whole different "Right of Annulment" than I did, because the Right of Annulment which Meredith asks you to enforce is nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of ALL circle mages down to the last child who almost certainly hasn't learned or done bloodmagic.  That is not only evil, it's genocide by definition.

Also Emil de'Launcet's only crime was being a moron, but Meredith would kill him too.

Nice Lady.

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

ALL other magic takes years and years of trainning, there is no reason to believe that blood magic is any different. You know what that is called? Logical deduction, a concept I'm sure you aren't familiar with.

I have one quote from Origins in response to that.

Wynne: I don't know how it happened, but suddenly he found his head on fire. Luckily there was a trough nearby full of water for him to dunk his head into.

She didn't have any training at the time. Yet she still did something from the primal school.

All I have ever seen in the game, was Meredith being delusional because she had no evidence that the Circle was rotten...and when push comes to shove and mages who are knowledgable and may be aware how to do blood magic to power their spells so the templars don't negate them, but don't actually do so, suddenly are left without any options. How many mages were trying to control templar minds? How many mages were outright summoning demons or using blood magic to achieve personal ends? Grace and Tehrone. I can't think of anyone else.

Meredith...at the time she calls the Right of Annulment, has no evidence whatsoever to support her claims. You see blood mages galore AFTER the decision, and that can be explained by either desperation or by secrets coming to light (based on gamer's own interpretation) but my big problem is that at the very moment we are making the decision, Meredith provides no evidence to the player that the Circle is beyond redemption.

She has an opinion and calls for blood to appease a mob. That's all she can offer to justify the Annulment.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ALL other magic takes years and years of trainning, there is no reason to believe that blood magic is any different.  You know what that is called? Logical deduction, a concept I'm sure you aren't familiar with.

Blood magic is the short, easy road to power.  That's why it's so attractive edit: despite all the demons, icky blood and the increased likelyhood of Templars and others trying to kill you.

And Orsino clearly hadn't practiced his Harvester transformation spell before.  Hell, perhaps if he was a more practiced blood mage it might have worked properly.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Yeap, invoking the Right of Annulment declares that Every Mage In That Circle Must Be Killed.

[Gemini1179]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

And we don't know how many of those blood mages in the final battle are only using it out of desperation to survive the Annulment. Nor do we know how many have actually been practicing for some time.

Again...Meredith gives us no evidence.

You don't learn blood magic instantaniously. ALL the practioners we run into must have been using it even before the annulment were called, which only serves to proove that the Circle was rotten from the core. Make no mistake, even the Templars of Kirkwall were bad, but the broad consensus of "poor mages, they are oh so innocent" that seems to be accepted, is entirely wrong. The mages were just as much of the problem as the Templars.

Really? From everything I've learned from DAO and DA2, blood is simply an energy source- Jowan says as much in Redcliff. If you were a part of the Mages, and the Right was announced, would you kneel and be beheadded or would you fight with everything available to you?

Although, if Legacy is any indication, Kirkwall is a heavily dark-influenced place to begin with, so the tendency for Mages to seek out blood magic may not be entirely natural to begin with.

[Killjoy Cutter]

After playing both games, my impression was that half of what mages had to learn was control, even with "good" magic, and the other half was fully realizing their potential power.


Part of the problem in these discussions is that, in DA:O, "blood magic" and "demonology" are not synonyms. You can be a blood mage, and have nothing to do with demons. In DA:2, when people talk about blood magic, they're almost always refering to dealings with demons, as if that's what "blood magic" means.

In DA:O, it was demon-magic that was the short and easy path to power, and which lead to possession and becoming an abomination.

[Sidney]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sidney wrote...

There's nothing wrong, at least in a reasonable mage role play, with killing the mages you are asked to kill. You're not killing inoffensive or "normal" mages you are killing the criminals, psychos and evil-doers of the world. The whole point of a lot of the lore you find is wrapped up in explaining why the circle in kirkwall is so rotted and dangerous and why the templars can't win with increased vigilance and control but it isn't clear they understand that problem.

Really?  You must have read a whole different "Right of Annulment" than I did, because the Right of Annulment which Meredith asks you to enforce is nothing less than the wholesale slaughter of ALL circle mages down to the last child who almost certainly hasn't learned or done bloodmagic.  That is not only evil, it's genocide by definition.

Also Emil de'Launcet's only crime was being a moron, but Meredith would kill him too.

Nice Lady.

-Polaris

Genocide? Really? Calm down, killing everyone in one specific place isn't genocide even by any stretch of the imagination. They're not klilling all mages.

Plus, what I was responding to was the person who hasn't reached that phase of the game yet and they are plinking off all the mages in Act I none of whom are you worker-bee type guys. They're the bad guys as are most of the mages you face until you get to Annulment. You don't have to whack Emile and there's no reason not to think he needs to die since he's claiming to be a blood mage.

[Sidney]

Gemini1179 wrote...
Really? From everything I've learned from DAO and DA2, blood is simply an energy source- Jowan says as much in Redcliff. If you were a part of the Mages, and the Right was announced, would you kneel and be beheadded or would you fight with everything available to you?

Although, if Legacy is any indication, Kirkwall is a heavily dark-influenced place to begin with, so the tendency for Mages to seek out blood magic may not be entirely natural to begin with.

Blood magic is practiced, hell all magic is practiced or else you'd not have teachers training students like you get in the intro as a mage in DAO. The game is never clear what % is natural skill and what is learned - there is some natural talent that can be ID'ed to get you to the circle but the circle is both a prison and a school. The latter function wouldn't be needed if all you were doing is controlling things. My impression of Orsino was that he was drawing on what he'd learned from the lessons and info sent by his happy serial skiller friend in terms of reainimating dead things.

The Kirkwall Circle is, as you note, particularly vulnerable but as the Ferelden Circle showed us there's no end of the mischief that can happen in a circle.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
Oh, rest assured, your entire misbegotten order will die

Even the nice Templars in Fereldan?

[IanPolaris]

Sidney wrote...

Genocide? Really? Calm down, killing everyone in one specific place isn't genocide even by any stretch of the imagination. They're not klilling all mages.

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

speaking of Emile de Launcet...

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:12 .