472 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

No it doesn't. Genocide targets a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Mages are none of these.

Modifié par phaonica, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

No it doesn't. Genocide targets a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Mages are none of these.

Yes they are.  The entire world of thedas treats them (including the mages themselves) as a seperate racial and enthnic group including tracking down "magic" in family blood lines.

By any rational and legal standard, the Right of Annulment IS genocide by definition.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I note that other mass murders in recent history have tried the same defense (they aren't 'really' an ethnic/religous/national group).  It never works in the Hague.  Just saying.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Genocide? Really? Calm down, killing everyone in one specific place isn't genocide even by any stretch of the imagination. They're not klilling all mages.

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

Well, ain't it a gosh-darn good thing that Kirkwall - or any other part of Thedas, for that matter - isn't in any place where "our" definition of genocide matters.

[TEWR]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

No it doesn't. Genocide targets a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Mages are none of these.

Mages indeed fit into the category of ethnic group, so yes it's genocide

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Genocide? Really? Calm down, killing everyone in one specific place isn't genocide even by any stretch of the imagination. They're not klilling all mages.

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

Well, ain't it a gosh-darn good thing that Kirkwall - or any other part of Thedas, for that matter - isn't in any place where "our" definition of genocide matters.

Actually it does.  Modern morality including genocide is referred to multiple times in the game (by no less than Wynne) and it's modern players that make the ethical decisions, so yes it matters.

Consider this, if some idiot decided to round up all green eyed people in concentration camps and kill them, would that be genocide?

If so, then the Right of Annulment (and arguably the Circle System itself) is equally genocide.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Genocide? Really? Calm down, killing everyone in one specific place isn't genocide even by any stretch of the imagination. They're not klilling all mages.

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

Well, ain't it a gosh-darn good thing that Kirkwall - or any other part of Thedas, for that matter - isn't in any place where "our" definition of genocide matters.

Considering Wynne actually calls it genocide for all of the mages to be killed, they do follow our definition. And even if they didn't follow our definition, this is something that would still be genocide.

Just because a person doesn't believe it to be genocide doesn't mean it isn't genocide.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Genocide? Really? Calm down, killing everyone in one specific place isn't genocide even by any stretch of the imagination. They're not klilling all mages.

Actually it is.  Sebrinica was the slaughter of all Muslim Bosians in one specific place and that most certainly was genocide.  Look it up.  The Right of Annulment is very clearly genocide by our legal definition of the term.

-Polaris

Well, ain't it a gosh-darn good thing that Kirkwall - or any other part of Thedas, for that matter - isn't in any place where "our" definition of genocide matters.

Actually it does.  Modern morality including genocide is referred to multiple times in the game (by no less than Wynne) and it's modern players that make the ethical decisions, so yes it matters.

Consider this, if some idiot decided to round up all green eyed people in concentration camps and kill them, would that be genocide?

If so, then the Right of Annulment (and arguably the Circle System itself) is equally genocide.

-Polaris

No, see, you don't get it.  Thedas isn't part of the UN.  It doesn't have anything to do with the Hague.  It's a fictional world in which the UN, the Hague, and "our" definition of genocide does not apply. 

Even if some "modern morality" is referenced, that means nothing.  Some =/= all.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

No, see, you don't get it.  Thedas isn't part of the UN.  It doesn't have anything to do with the Hague.  It's a fictional world in which the UN, the Hague, and "our" definition of genocide does not apply. 

Even if some "modern morality" is referenced, that means nothing.  Some =/= all.

So if a state isn't part of the UN they can't commit genocide?

I don't think so.  Words have meaning and the UN has defined the meaning of genocide and that word retains it's meaning even in Thedas.  BY DEFINITION then (UN notwithstanding), the Right of Annulement is genocide.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

Consider this, if some idiot decided to round up all green eyed people in concentration camps and kill them, would that be genocide?

I'd consider it a hate crime, but not genocide.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mages indeed fit into the category of ethnic group, so yes it's genocide

Possibly. Still, just because people share a similar background or face similar prejudices doesn't automatically make them an ethnic group. Are "gamers" an ethnic group? "Comic book geeks"? Women? Men? People with green eyes (as per the example above)?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Considering Wynne
actually calls it genocide for all of the mages to be killed, they do
follow our definition. And even if they didn't follow our definition,
this is something that would still be genocide.

Where does she say this? Awakening?
Edit: Nvm, found it.

Just because a person doesn't believe it to be genocide doesn't mean it isn't genocide.

Agreed. Thats why I was looking for a legal definition.

Modifié par phaonica, 30 septembre 2011 - 02:00 .

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

No, see, you don't get it.  Thedas isn't part of the UN.  It doesn't have anything to do with the Hague.  It's a fictional world in which the UN, the Hague, and "our" definition of genocide does not apply. 

Even if some "modern morality" is referenced, that means nothing.  Some =/= all.

So if a state isn't part of the UN they can't commit genocide?

I don't think so.  Words have meaning and the UN has defined the meaning of genocide and that word retains it's meaning even in Thedas.  BY DEFINITION then (UN notwithstanding), the Right of Annulement is genocide.

-Polaris

It's like speaking to a wall.

Let's do it this way.  Go get a globe of Earth.  I'll wait.

Got it?  Okay, good.  Now, point to Thedas on it, take a picture of that spot, and post it for me.  Once you do that, I'll accept that the UN definition of genocide matters in Thedas.

Okay?  Okay.

[GodWood]

IanPolaris wrote...
the Right of Annulement is genocide.

Justified genocide 

[IanPolaris]

The game is marketed at Western Audiences and uses the WORD genocide in it's modern meaning and context. That means you use the UN definition because that is the only proper legal definition of the term, and yes it's been ruled that inherited traits are considered to fall under the "ethnic" clause of Genocide as legally defined.

It's very easy to point to Canada on the Earth's Globe and Bioware (in Canada) wrote the game with the appropriate definitions.


The Right of Annulment is genocide. Don't try to dance around it.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

Thedas is in Canada? Really? Which province? Because, ya know, it's not showing on my map.

Thedas isn't on Earth. Don't try to dance around it.

Seriously, man, I want to be your chiropracter. If you twist your body as much as you try to twist words, you must need an adjustment hourly.

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

 yes it's been ruled that inherited traits are considered to fall under the "ethnic" clause of Genocide as legally defined.

You want to point us to a source on that, because I don't see that mentioned anywhere I've looked.

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

 yes it's been ruled that inherited traits are considered to fall under the "ethnic" clause of Genocide as legally defined.

You want to point us to a source on that, because I don't see that mentioned anywhere I've looked.

So you are saying that killing everyone with brown skin isn't genocide?  I somehow doubt the Hague would agree.  I do know that some of the Bosian Serb leaders tried your "defense" and it got them precisely nowhere (i.e. that Bosnian Muslim is not a recognized ethnic group).

The fact is that mages are treated by themselves and by everyone else as a specific sub-culture and that's all that's needed to define ethnicity...at least for purposes of genocide.  Yes, it's deliberately THAT LOOSE to discourage people from trying to lawyer out of genocide like you are trying to do.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Thedas is in Canada? Really? Which province? Because, ya know, it's not showing on my map.

Thedas isn't on Earth. Don't try to dance around it.

Seriously, man, I want to be your chiropracter. If you twist your body as much as you try to twist words, you must need an adjustment hourly.

Whereever Edmonton is located.  Seriously dude, Thedas is a contruct of those that live ON EARTH and sold to players who live on EARTH and use the appropriate language.  Stop trying to say a word doesn't have meaning when clearly it does in the game.

That's just weak.

-Poalris

[TJPags]

Dude, what you're saying is similar to me saying that someone in Canada has the Right to Bear Arms . . . .because I'm saying it, and I'm in the US, and my Constitution says so.

Can't you understand that Thedas is a fictional world, with it's own laws, usages and customs, not all of which are identical to those here?

[IanPolaris]

This is what the UN has to say about trying to "define away" genocide:

The Convention was manifestly adopted for humanitarian and civilizing purposes. Its objectives are to safeguard the very existence of certain human groups and to affirm and emphasize the most elementary principles of humanity and morality. In view of the rights involved, the legal obligations to refrain from genocide are recognized as erga omnes.
When the Convention was drafted, it was already envisaged that it would apply not only to then existing forms of genocide, but also "to any method that might be evolved in the future with a view to destroying the physical existence of a group".[22] As emphasized in the preamble to the Convention, genocide has marred all periods of history, and it is this very tragic recognition that gives the concept its historical evolutionary nature.
The Convention must be interpreted in good faith, in accordance with the ordinary meaning of its terms, in their context, and in the light of its object and purpose. Moreover, the text of the Convention should be interpreted in such a way that a reason and a meaning can be attributed to every word. No word or provision may be disregarded or treated as superfluous, unless this is absolutely necessary to give effect to the terms read as a whole.[23]
Genocide is a crime under international law regardless of "whether committed in time of peace or in time of war" (art. I). Thus, irrespective of the context in which it occurs (for example, peace time, internal strife, international armed conflict or whatever the general overall situation) genocide is a punishable international crime.

— UN Commission of Experts that examined violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.[24]

(Sources from Wiki entry on Genocide)

22.^ From a statement made by Mr. Morozov, representative of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, on 19 April 1948 during the debate in the Ad Hoc Committee on Genocide (E/AC.25/SR.12).
23.^ See Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, opened for signature on 23 May 1969, United Nations Treaty Series, vol. 1155, No. I-18232.
24.^ Mandate, structure and methods of work: Genocide I of the UN Commission of Experts to examine violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, created by Security Council resolution 780 (1992) of 6 October 1992.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Anders considers the mages his people. Bethany considers mages her people, and argues with a pro-templar Hawke not to make her choose between her family and her people, so I don't see why some are arguing that mages don't consider themselves part of the same group.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Dude, what you're saying is similar to me saying that someone in Canada has the Right to Bear Arms . . . .because I'm saying it, and I'm in the US, and my Constitution says so.

Can't you understand that Thedas is a fictional world, with it's own laws, usages and customs, not all of which are identical to those here?

Dude, no I'm not.  I am saying that Genocide has a legal definiation that has entered our language and the game uses that definition as part of the in-game dialog.

People have a natural right not to be victims of genocide whether there is a UN or not.  The Constitution in the US doesn't give the right to bear arms.  It recognizes a preexisting natural right.  That's all.

-Polaris

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

The fact is that mages are treated by themselves and by everyone else as a specific sub-culture and that's all that's needed to define ethnicity...at least for purposes of genocide.  Yes, it's deliberately THAT LOOSE to discourage people from trying to lawyer out of genocide like you are trying to do.

Then there is no letter of the law, and there is only the spirit of the law, which implies that its definition, by definition, is arguable.

Modifié par phaonica, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Sebastian uses the term "holocaust" when speaking to Anders about the Tranquil Solution, so I think the people of Thedas would understand the concept of genocide - since Wynne addresses how the Chantry would prefer to kill all the mages rather than see them free when The Warden speaks to her in Amaranthine about the meeting in Cumberland.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Frankly, I find the assertion that the Right of Annulment is genocide to be overblown because I don't think it takes place on a scale anywhere near what should be called genocide. And calling what happened in Kirkwall "genocide" diminishes the term when used to describe other genocide that has happened over the course of Thedas' history. "Genocide" would be what I'd call what happened to the dwarves in the First Blight. When Wynne talked about the alternative being genocide, I was pretty sure that she was talking about if all templars everywhere decided they needed to wipe out all mages in all Circles. If the templars did or deiced to do something like later on, that it would be an atrocity of a magnitude far greater than what Meredith did in Kirkwall, I don't think they should have the same word becuase they aren't exactly the same thing.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dude, what you're saying is similar to me saying that someone in Canada has the Right to Bear Arms . . . .because I'm saying it, and I'm in the US, and my Constitution says so.

Can't you understand that Thedas is a fictional world, with it's own laws, usages and customs, not all of which are identical to those here?

Dude, no I'm not.  I am saying that Genocide has a legal definiation that has entered our language and the game uses that definition as part of the in-game dialog.

People have a natural right not to be victims of genocide whether there is a UN or not.  The Constitution in the US doesn't give the right to bear arms.  It recognizes a preexisting natural right.  That's all.

-Polaris

So, you ARE arguing that people in Canada, and anywhere else I guess, have the right to bear arms?????

Okay, yea, I'll check out now.