125 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

IanPolaris wrote...

That isn't true. If you kill Lelianna, you ARE given the option to loot and dispose of the body. As such this is a blatent retcon and thus dumping on the player is exactly what this is.

-Polaris

"Dispose" of the body...the way other bodies are disposed of in the DA-verse? You dump it somewhere? On a lyrium-laden mountain? Near some ashes that may still yet be magically enhanced? Close to the shrine of one of the most beloved prophets of Thedan faith?

Ok. Sure. Because whatever decision by the devs that we don't like is, of course, "dumping on the player."

[mousestalker]

Not to mention that the deceased person in question is exceptionally skilled at deception. Pesky things, these facts are...

[IanPolaris]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That isn't true. If you kill Lelianna, you ARE given the option to loot and dispose of the body. As such this is a blatent retcon and thus dumping on the player is exactly what this is.

-Polaris

"Dispose" of the body...the way other bodies are disposed of in the DA-verse? You dump it somewhere? On a lyrium-laden mountain? Near some ashes that may still yet be magically enhanced? Close to the shrine of one of the most beloved prophets of Thedan faith?

Ok. Sure. Because whatever decision by the devs that we don't like is, of course, "dumping on the player."

Nope.  I haven't used that term except in this particular case.  However blatently disregarding and even changing a choice made by the player IS dumping on the player.  Bottom line.  Btw, when you loot the body, you leave a clear pile of bones behind.  That seems to count as disposing of the body to me.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

Not to mention that the deceased person in question is exceptionally skilled at deception. Pesky things, these facts are...

You can kill Zevran and he's just as good as a rogue as Lelianna is.  I am not hearing facts.  I am hearing lame excuses as to why Bioware can do no wrong.

-Polaris

[whykikyouwhy]

IanPolaris wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Not to mention that the deceased person in question is exceptionally skilled at deception. Pesky things, these facts are...

You can kill Zevran and he's just as good as a rogue as Lelianna is.  I am not hearing facts.  I am hearing lame excuses as to why Bioware can do no wrong.

-Polaris

Facts can only be provided at the devs at this point. Things are purposely vague and hazy for the sake of storytelling (you know, the telling of their story). So until they swoop in with declarations of why, what and how, we only have speculation, and warring head canons.

I am in no position to excuse Bioware for anything, simply because I don't know enough about their inner workings. What I am willing to do is wait it out - see what the whole story, the big picture, turns out to be. I realize that patience may be a lost virtue though... 

[Wulfram]

Leliana was about as definitively established as dead as a character can be, short of the few who get a cutscene death. It's either a retcon, or they've introduced resurrection into the setting.

[caradoc2000]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

...obviously there was a reason why she was supposed to be alive. She has a special purpose.

Then why give us the option (or rather an illusionary option) to kill her in the first place?

While I do accept the fact that it is Bioware's game and they can do with it as they please, to me these kind of decisions cheapen the impact of choice. It is almost comical, you cut off her head and she goes all Monty Python - "'tis just a scratch". Same thing with Flemeth, who pulls a Voldemort with her horcruxes.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I get a serious "why bother" feeling.

[IanPolaris]

caradoc2000 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

...obviously there was a reason why she was supposed to be alive. She has a special purpose.

Then why give us the option (or rather an illusionary option) to kill her in the first place?

While I do accept the fact that it is Bioware's game and they can do with it as they please, to me these kind of decisions cheapen the impact of choice. It is almost comical, you cut off her head and she goes all Monty Python - "'tis just a scratch". Same thing with Flemeth, who pulls a Voldemort with her horcruxes.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I get a serious "why bother" feeling.

At least with Flemeth the game strongly implies from the very start (in fact Morrigan states this from the start) that Flemeith won't stay dead.  We learn (one way) how in DA2 so at least it's addressed.  With Lelianna it's a naked retcon.  Either honor our choices or don't give us that choice.  It's just that simple.

-Polaris

[thats1evildude]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I don't know about the rest of you, but I get a serious "why bother" feeling.

Well, why do you play these games? I play them to go on adventures, battle monsters and enjoy an intricate storyline. Sure, I make decisions during the course of the game and I try to make those decisions fit the character I'm playing, but I don't expect the world to conform to my every whim. I don't entertain illusisons that every single choice I make is going to be upheld or even matter in the long run. How could it? I could only do that if I was writing this story, which I'm not.

Leliana has been brought forward from Origins to DA2 for a reason. I don't know precisely what role she will play in the future, but I'm content to wait and find out. It should be fun.

Which comes to my final point: keep in mind that you are not granted any more special privileges than I am as a customer. I enjoyed seeing Leli again, and since the circumstances that allow you to kill Leliana are very narrow, I am part of the majority of players that, at the very least, did not kill her.

So the question really comes down to this: if BW feels that Leliana has a place in their story and her appearance will at least please me, why should they then NOT include her in said story simply to please you?

Polaris, you can parrot that "DUMP ON THE FANS" line all you want, but brother, from where I'm standing, I'm not detecting any human feces in my general vicinity. 

If you can't accept that and are still butthurt that BW violated your personal canon, well then … TFS? Sucks to be you? That's what it really comes down to. But keep in mind, dudes: it's just a video game. Is it really worth all this impotent raging on Internet forums?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 septembre 2011 - 11:48 .

[Dave of Canada]

Except they didn't give you the choice to kill Leliana. The choice was to defile the ashes or not.

And I'm pretty damn sure most of the people who complain about their choices not being "honored" didn't kill Leliana.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2011 - 11:38 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except they didn't give you the choice to kill Leliana. The choice was to defile the ashes or not.

Thank you. I said the exact same thing on another thread. Fighting and killing Leliana isn't the choice there. It's just a result of your choice to defile an Urn in the hopes that it won't function anymore, based on the word of an insane Reaver (somewhat redundant) who knows nothing about the arcane.

[Wulfram]

Not everything can be perfectly planned in advance.

I'd rather have a game like Origins with plenty of choice but has to have a few retcons put in for awkward minority choices in the sequel, than a game like DA2 with very little choice even if it means no retcons in the future.

The first objective of a computer game should be to provide a good experience in itself, not to setup things for the sequel.

[mousestalker]

IanPolaris wrote...

Snip...
With Lelianna it's a naked retcon.  Either honor our choices or don't give us that choice.  It's just that simple.

-Polaris

When Leliana is shown after destroying the Sacred Ashed, she has clothes. When she reappears as Sister Nightingale, she is also fully clothed. So what you are saying is, if some perv strips Leli of her clothing at the temple, the devs should honour his deviancy?

That's just wrong.

Modifié par mousestalker, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Snip...
With Lelianna it's a naked retcon.  Either honor our choices or don't give us that choice.  It's just that simple.

-Polaris

When Leliana is shown after destroying the Sacred Ashed, she has clothes. When she reappears as SISter Nightingale, she is also fully clothed. So what you are saying is, if some perv strips Leli of her clothing at the temple, the devs should honour his deviancy?

That's just wrong.

Lelianna was killed (potentially) as definatively as any character can be (at least potentially).  if this happens, then that PLAYER CHOICE/DECISION shoujld be honored.  Otherwise you are taking a dump on the player, and honestly DG's own comments in this regard haven't helped his case.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

I don't know about the rest of you, but I get a serious "why bother" feeling.

Well, why do you play these games? I play them to go on adventures, battle monsters and enjoy an intricate storyline. Sure, I make decisions during the course of the game and I try to make those decisions fit the character I'm playing, but I don't expect the world to conform to my every whim. I don't entertain illusisons that every single choice I make is going to be upheld or even matter in the long run. I could only do that if I was writing this story, which I'm not.

Leliana has been brought forward from Origins to DA2 for a reason. I don't know precisely what role she will play in the future, but I'm content to wait and find out. It should be fun.

Which comes to my final point: keep in mind that you are not granted any more special privileges than I am as a customer. I enjoyed seeing Leli again, and since the circumstances that allow you to kill Leliana are very narrow, I am part of the majority of players that, at the very least, did not kill her.

So the question really comes down to this: if BW feels that Leliana has a place in their story and her appearance will at least please me, why should they then NOT include her in said story simply to accomodate you?

You can parrot that "DUMP ON THE FANS" line all you want, but brother, from where I'm standing, I'm not detecting any human feces in my general vicinity. 

If you can't accept that and are still butthurt that BW violated your personal canon, well then … TFS? Sucks to be you? That's what it really comes down to. But keep in mind, dudes: it's just a video game. Is it really worth all this impotent raging on Internet forums?

Except that Bioware has said repeatedly that our decisions are important and matter.  If not then why have a save game import option at all.  Either way you look at it, it's a blatent disrespect to your customers especially how it was defended.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except they didn't give you the choice to kill Leliana. The choice was to defile the ashes or not.

Thank you. I said the exact same thing on another thread. Fighting and killing Leliana isn't the choice there. It's just a result of your choice to defile an Urn in the hopes that it won't function anymore, based on the word of an insane Reaver (somewhat redundant) who knows nothing about the arcane.

He has plenty of mages working for him.  I'm sure that Father Kolgrim has plenty of Arcane knowledge available to him.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Not everything can be perfectly planned in advance.

I'd rather have a game like Origins with plenty of choice but has to have a few retcons put in for awkward minority choices in the sequel, than a game like DA2 with very little choice even if it means no retcons in the future.

The first objective of a computer game should be to provide a good experience in itself, not to setup things for the sequel.

An honest retcon would be one thing, but if so then admit it's a retcon, apologize and move on.  Honestly it was DG's response that bothered me at least as much as the retcon itself.


-Polaris

[thats1evildude]

IanPolaris wrote...

Except that Bioware has said repeatedly that our decisions are important and matter.

But my choices DID matter. You keep saying "our," but you don't actually speak for me, Polaris.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 30 septembre 2011 - 11:50 .

[IanPolaris]

thats1evildude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Except that Bioware has said repeatedly that our decisions are important and matter.

But my choices DID matter.

Only if Bioware agrees with them.  Obviously your choices with Lelianna don't matter and that's not right.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except they didn't give you the choice to kill Leliana. The choice was to defile the ashes or not.

Thank you. I said the exact same thing on another thread. Fighting and killing Leliana isn't the choice there. It's just a result of your choice to defile an Urn in the hopes that it won't function anymore, based on the word of an insane Reaver (somewhat redundant) who knows nothing about the arcane.

He has plenty of mages working for him.  I'm sure that Father Kolgrim has plenty of Arcane knowledge available to him.

-Polaris

Then he could've specified that he got the knowledge from those mages. Though because he's insane and because there's no way they could've actually known that dragon's blood would nullify the ashes (seeing as how the Guardian barred them from going to the actual Urn), believing that dragon's blood will actually make them useless is stupid imo.

Dragon's blood if anything would do nothing to the Ashes or it would even make the Ashes stronger since they increase a person's constitution and strength:

Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well. Nevarran dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form in the first place? How did the cultists know to drink the dragon's blood? How did the high dragon convince them to care for its young, or know that they would?

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Except that Bioware has said repeatedly that our decisions are important and matter.

But my choices DID matter.

Only if Bioware agrees with them.  Obviously your choices with Lelianna don't matter and that's not right.

-Polaris

You chose to defile a wastebin full of the charred remnants of a dead woman. She attacked you. That's a result of your choice, not an actual choice itself. Dragon's blood actually increases a person's constitution and makes them harder to kill. Kolgrim only believes that the dragon's blood will work on rendering the Ashes useless, but he is neither a master of the arcane nor sane. Reavers eventually do go insane.

That Leliana attacked you wasn't the choice in that sequence. It was a result of your choice to defile the Urn. The only thing that I think Bioware should've done is left it ambiguous on whether or not she was truly dead, which I hope they do in the future for all companions. Though to be honest I actually would rather they do away with the "Kill your companions" thing. Betrayal and other things that result in them leaving the party I can get behind.

Anyway, they really only needed to have a line in the DAO Leliana codex that cast some doubt, but a cinematic showing Leliana bleeding profusely like Teyrn Cousland (but still alive like Teyrn Cousland) would've been better.

But alas there is enough in that specific area to help explain her resurrection:




Magical Urn that can heal people


Lyrium all around and in the mountain


Wynne comments that the place is practically infused with magic


Supposedly the Maker watches over the Temple. Brother Genitivi just chalks it up to hyperbole because it sounds nicer than "Willy toiled for many an hour to perfect the curious mechanism that would send a sharpened spike up the arse of the unwary intruder". Still, he does admit that it's possible the Maker does indeed watch over the area.


and other things.

[TEWR]

mousestalker wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Snip...
With Lelianna it's a naked retcon.  Either honor our choices or don't give us that choice.  It's just that simple.

-Polaris

When Leliana is shown after destroying the Sacred Ashed, she has clothes. When she reappears as SISter Nightingale, she is also fully clothed. So what you are saying is, if some perv strips Leli of her clothing at the temple, the devs should honour his deviancy?

That's just wrong.

Yes! I demand a naked Leliana cameo! Alongside a naked, drunken Oghren riding a gorilla companion (for DA3's protagonist) into battle against the Darkspawn cameo!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[IanPolaris]

Etheral Writer,

Sorry but it seems like a clumsy and shoddy retcon to me and DG's response to this has actually hardened my opinion in this regard.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then he could've specified that he got the knowledge from those mages.

Even then... They're mages who've lived in Haven for their entire lives and have the same fanatical devotion to dragons / wyverns as everybody else, for all they know they believe New Andraste's blood > Old Andraste's ashes. 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:02 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then he could've specified that he got the knowledge from those mages.

Even then... They're mages who've lived in Haven for their entire lives and have the same fanatical devotion to dragons / wyverns as everybody else, for all they know they believe New Andraste's blood > Old Andraste's ashes. 

Indeed. Crazy mages are just like crazy non-mages. They're crazy.



@Ian: I don't see it as one, but I do think that Bioware should've given us at least a codex line to give us some doubt on whether she was dead or alive.

Though as I said above I want them to do away with killing companions to get rid of them. The companions are obviously going to impact Thedas in great ways. So long as they're still alive, they can always do this (with different methods to accomodate how they were removed from the party. Perhaps even different personalities).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:06 .