125 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

I wonder...if Flemeth can be a dragon, why couldn't Leliana be a phoenix? Hmm...maybe I'll go get a cappuccino and ponder that further.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Ian: I don't see it as one, but I do think that Bioware should've given us at least a codex line to give us some doubt on whether she was dead or alive.

I do.  Lelianna was about as dead as any character can be INCLUDING the in game codex entries.   Saying so otherwise now (and especially the openly condescending way that DG did so) makes this a pretty clear and blatent retcon.

-Polaris

[fchopin]

expanding panic wrote...

I belive I read on the Dragon Age Wiki that if you don't recruit Leliana in DAO then she remains in Lothering and dies when the Blight reaches Lothering. So my question is this if you don't recruit her is there another Sister or  is it Still Leliana?

If i remember correctly if you don’t recruit Leliana and you talk to one of the sisters in the temple she tells you that Leliana has left Lothering and was travelling alone.

[IanPolaris]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I wonder...if Flemeth can be a dragon, why couldn't Leliana be a phoenix? Hmm...maybe I'll go get a cappuccino and ponder that further.

Flemeth is a highly skilled witch/abomination/mystery that has legendary power and has lived for centuries.  Lelianna is to anyone's knowledge just an ordinary human woman.

There is a slight difference.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

fchopin wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

I belive I read on the Dragon Age Wiki that if you don't recruit Leliana in DAO then she remains in Lothering and dies when the Blight reaches Lothering. So my question is this if you don't recruit her is there another Sister or  is it Still Leliana?

If i remember correctly if you don’t recruit Leliana and you talk to one of the sisters in the temple she tells you that Leliana has left Lothering and was travelling alone.

True, but if you have romanced Lelianna and she fell in love with you (and is not hardened) and you do the Ultimate sacrifice, the Lelianna commits suicide.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

fchopin wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

I belive I read on the Dragon Age Wiki that if you don't recruit Leliana in DAO then she remains in Lothering and dies when the Blight reaches Lothering. So my question is this if you don't recruit her is there another Sister or  is it Still Leliana?

If i remember correctly if you don’t recruit Leliana and you talk to one of the sisters in the temple she tells you that Leliana has left Lothering and was travelling alone.

True, but if you have romanced Lelianna and she fell in love with you (and is not hardened) and you do the Ultimate sacrifice, the Lelianna commits suicide.

-Polaris

Not quite. It can be taken to mean that, but it actually says "It is said that blah blah blah....". What is said and what actually happened are two different things.

Besides, if she committed suicide someone would've found the body and she wouldn't have "quietly vanished".

[whykikyouwhy]

@IanPolaris - "to anyone's knowledge" - key words there. Nothing should be judged by the surface appearance. So too, since when was Leliana ever just "ordinary?"

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like the phoenix theory. Red hair, magnificent, and then the whole parallel with ashes. Hmm...

[TEWR]

It would be interesting to say the least. Some stories say that a phoenix can transform into a person.

[fchopin]

IanPolaris wrote...

fchopin wrote...

expanding panic wrote...

I belive I read on the Dragon Age Wiki that if you don't recruit Leliana in DAO then she remains in Lothering and dies when the Blight reaches Lothering. So my question is this if you don't recruit her is there another Sister or  is it Still Leliana?

If i remember correctly if you don’t recruit Leliana and you talk to one of the sisters in the temple she tells you that Leliana has left Lothering and was travelling alone.

True, but if you have romanced Lelianna and she fell in love with you (and is not hardened) and you do the Ultimate sacrifice, the Lelianna commits suicide.

-Polaris

I was not disagreeing with you just correcting the Lothering point.

Edit: It is also possible Leliana could be Flemeth in DA2 but there is no way to know until BW makes a new game.

Modifié par fchopin, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:30 .

[spiritofretribution]

IanPolaris wrote...

True, but if you have romanced Lelianna and she fell in love with you (and is not hardened) and you do the Ultimate sacrifice, the Lelianna commits suicide.

-Polaris

The codex says the following

Leliana, if romanced, 'unhardened', and The Warden sacrifices him- or herself in the final battle, will compose what will become a famous ballad of your journey. After one performance, Leliana quietly vanishes. It is said that the Maker came to her in the night, and her maid found Leliana smiling, with tears in her eyes, saying that at last she would soon be reunited with her love.

Nowhere it is stated that Leliana commits suicide (however that was what I though first).

I think that this means that the Warden is alive no matter what, that if you refused the DR then Morrigan probably seduced the other Warden, Riordan, and your Warden was just knocked out from the blast and suffered an temporary amnesia. This would also explain why Leliana (and the Seekers) are searching for the Warden if you made the US, the Orleasian Warden is not really important after all, slew some broodmothers, killed some darkspawn, nothing more. The Orleasian Warden is just a Commander of the Grey, an important person, yes, but nothing like the Hero of Ferelden. People would follow the HoF, but not some random warden commander.

Thus I'm thinking that Leliana found out that the Warden is still alive and went seeking him out, instead of commiting suicide.

Modifié par spiritofretribution, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[RagingCyclone]

@spiritofretribution---there's one small problem with your theory about the warden still being alive after the US...unless the devs plan to handwave this as well:

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Etheral Writer,

Sorry but it seems like a clumsy and shoddy retcon to me and DG's response to this has actually hardened my opinion in this regard.

-Polaris

What response was that?

The one where he said that there is a reason why Leliana's alive, said reason is not going to be revealed just yet, and you're free to decide once you hear it whether you like it or not?

Because I find that response perfectly reasonable.

Honestly, are people still confused about the definition of retroactive continuity? Because this isn't one. It might turn out to be a really shoddy handwave (like Oghren alive in Awakening if you killed him in Origins), but that is not a retcon, so please stop calling it that.

TBH I'd prefer certain things being openly admitted as retcons rather than given poor explanations. The latter make me cringe a great deal more, and can even feel insulting ("I'm supposed to swallow this...?"). Ideally though...credible explanations or honouring player choices are best, of course. Plot armour gets tiresome when overused.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except they didn't give you the choice to kill Leliana. The choice was to defile the ashes or not.

The Warden has the choice to kill Leliana by killing her. It's the same choice The Warden has to kill Wynne.

Dave of Canada wrote...

And I'm pretty damn sure most of the people who complain about their choices not being "honored" didn't kill Leliana.

It sounds more like the people who don't care about this are the same people who didn't kill Leliana. People address the problem of not honoring choices in a series that was advertised as importing choices since this isn't the only example of a recton, and people don't want to see this happening over and over again.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thank you. I said the exact same thing on another thread. Fighting and killing Leliana isn't the choice there.

The choice is there - it's the decision of The Warden to bring Leliana and Wynne along, to destroy the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and to kill them in self-defense. The fact that people are arguing game mechanics as an explanation of why Leliana is still alive doesn't make sense to me - if The Warden killed her, then I don't see how she's still alive. It is a recton since she was a corpse in Origins and is alive in Dragon Age 2.
 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's just a result of your choice to defile an Urn in the hopes that it won't function anymore, based on the word of an insane Reaver (somewhat redundant) who knows nothing about the arcane.

The Guardian certainly reacts as though the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been destroyed, and the Epilogue slide confirms The Warden's choice to destroy the ashes of Andraste.

[Xilizhra]

The Guardian certainly reacts as though the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been destroyed, and the Epilogue slide confirms The Warden's choice to destroy the ashes of Andraste.

Quite frankly, the epilogues are crap.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Guardian certainly reacts as though the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been destroyed, and the Epilogue slide confirms The Warden's choice to destroy the ashes of Andraste.

Quite frankly, the epilogues are crap.

That's what happens when the developers contradict them continually. The developers didn't plan ahead and decided to change things, i.e. Cullen and the Magi boon (via the lack of an independent Circle of Orzammar if The Warden asks the new ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden because it would be redundant to have an independent Circle if the Circle of Ferelden was already free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars).

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Guardian certainly reacts as though the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been destroyed, and the Epilogue slide confirms The Warden's choice to destroy the ashes of Andraste.

Quite frankly, the epilogues are crap.

That's what happens when the developers contradict them continually. The developers didn't plan ahead and decided to change things, i.e. Cullen and the Magi boon (via the lack of an independent Circle of Orzammar if The Warden asks the new ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden because it would be redundant to have an independent Circle if the Circle of Ferelden was already free from the Chantry and the Order of Templars).

The mistake was in making so many epilogues in the first place. They were too certain about too many things.

[ejoslin]

Honestly, Cullen being in DA2 puzzles me more than anything else. It's not like he's a major character in either game, and if the warden was a mage and asks for the magi boon, his epilogues make it clear that he could not have been in kirkwell. I honestly do not know why they put him there unless it was fan service. As far as DAO epilogues being heresay and rumors, then why have them? But Cullen being Knight Commander of the circle certainly couldn't have just been a rumor :/

Handwaves are fine, but some of them just don't make sense to me. Leliana is most definitely a handwave, but one that many fans welcome (generally the ones who like her and wouldn't have killed her). Personally I don't care, but it does take away some of the consistency when characters who did not need to be brought back, were very minor, were still brought back (I'm thinking more about Cullen, not Leliana, here).

I loved DAO's endings, personally. Some were good, some were not good, and the laws of unintended consequences were very much in evidence. I understand why some had to be discounted, but why change the ones that didn't have to be?

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:38 .

[TEWR]

The choice is there - it's the decision of The Warden to bring Leliana and Wynne along, to destroy the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and to kill them in self-defense. The fact that people are arguing game mechanics as an explanation of why Leliana is still alive doesn't make sense to me - if The Warden killed her, then I don't see how she's still alive. It is a recton since she was a corpse in Origins and is alive in Dragon Age 2.

First off, bringing Leliana and Wynne -- who are devout Andrastians and preach their belief in the Maker like crazy (not necessarily in an attempt to convert someone) -- to a sacred relic with the intent to destroy said relic is beyond foolish.

Second: what game mechanics are being argued?

The Guardian certainly reacts as though the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been destroyed, and the Epilogue slide confirms The Warden's choice to destroy the ashes of Andraste.

The Guardian is reacting like any normal person would if they held something to be sacred when said item is being defiled: pissed off. That doesn't mean they weren't functional anymore.

The fact that he has a very real body because of the lyrium in the mountain so long after his death should be enough to prove that Leliana dying there as well and being reborn again wasn't a retcon.

And epilogues are no longer considered strictly canon.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The choice is there - it's the decision of The Warden to bring Leliana and Wynne along, to destroy the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and to kill them in self-defense. The fact that people are arguing game mechanics as an explanation of why Leliana is still alive doesn't make sense to me - if The Warden killed her, then I don't see how she's still alive. It is a recton since she was a corpse in Origins and is alive in Dragon Age 2.

First off, bringing Leliana and Wynne -- who are devout Andrastians and preach their belief in the Maker like crazy (not necessarily in an attempt to convert someone) -- to a sacred relic with the intent to destroy said relic is beyond foolish.

Second: what game mechanics are being argued?

First, your personal opinion aside, it's still The Warden killing Leliana and Wynne if they are brought along, regardless of how you feel about the situation and the decision.

Second, the game mechanic of Leliana "faking her death" via game mechanics as an explanation for how she survived the Warden killing her.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Guardian certainly reacts as though the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been destroyed, and the Epilogue slide confirms The Warden's choice to destroy the ashes of Andraste.

The Guardian is reacting like any normal person would if they held something to be sacred when said item is being defiled: pissed off. That doesn't mean they weren't functional anymore.

The fact that he has a very real body because of the lyrium in the mountain so long after his death should be enough to prove that Leliana dying there as well and being reborn again wasn't a retcon.

And epilogues are no longer considered strictly canon.

There's no evidence the ashes weren't destroyed. The Epilogue slide confirmed the destruction of the Urn of Sacred Ashes by The Warden. If the developers decided to recton that decision, than that's another matter.

A recton is short for 'retroactive continuity.' A recton is "the alteration of previously established facts in a fictional work." Changing Leliana from being dead (if The Warden kills her in Origins) to being alive (in Dragon Age 2) is indeed a recton, regardless of the explanation provided. Since it changes Leliana's status from being a corpse on the ground to being alive, it's retroactive continuity at work.

"Comic book fans will be familiar with the term 'retcon,' which in layman's terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you 'Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that'." - Spoony

[whykikyouwhy]

Are we really defining "retcon" again?

I stand by two things - 1. We need devs to weigh in. If, at this point, they aren't ready to divulge all of the particulars (as with the quote from Gaider a few posts back), then we just need to wait. Or not - but to cry foul with not enough information to support any perceived indignities committed, just seems like an exercise in self-frustration. Which is fine for those who want to feel frustrated. I'd rather hold to some optimism. Call me crazy!

And 2. She's a phoenix.

[Xilizhra]

ejoslin wrote...

Honestly, Cullen being in DA2 puzzles me more than anything else. It's not like he's a major character in either game, and if the warden was a mage and asks for the magi boon, his epilogues make it clear that he could not have been in kirkwell. I honestly do not know why they put him there unless it was fan service. As far as DAO epilogues being heresay and rumors, then why have them? But Cullen being Knight Commander of the circle certainly couldn't have just been a rumor :/

Handwaves are fine, but some of them just don't make sense to me. Leliana is most definitely a handwave, but one that many fans welcome (generally the ones who like her and wouldn't have killed her). Personally I don't care, but it does take away some of the consistency when characters who did not need to be brought back, were very minor, were still brought back (I'm thinking more about Cullen, not Leliana, here).

I loved DAO's endings, personally. Some were good, some were not good, and the laws of unintended consequences were very much in evidence. I understand why some had to be discounted, but why change the ones that didn't have to be?

I agree. I think that Cullen was pointless, and that Meredith's backstory would have given us something new to learn and would have served the same purpose had she not gone all idol-crazy. Instead, Meredith was turned to cardboard and Cullen turned into Mr. Reasonable Templar Mouthpiece (in theory) despite the fact that I find him much less interesting.

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
First off, bringing Leliana and Wynne -- who are devout Andrastians and preach their belief in the Maker like crazy (not necessarily in an attempt to convert someone) -- to a sacred relic with the intent to destroy said relic is beyond foolish.

The Warden could not have known for sure that there were actually ashes, let alone miraculous ashes, before going up on the mountaintop.  So how many people go up there intending to destroy them?  Secondly, you wouldn't have known there would be a crazy cult leader who would offer you a compromise.  When I rp'ed destroying the ashes, it was on a dwarf who had no belief in Andraste and saw a way to avoid further killing.  A rather Andrastian principle, I would think.  Third, you ought to be able to trust the people in your party not to try to kill you over something so intangible as belief in magic dust.

The Guardian is not just pissed off- he is distraught.  But I agree with you that the explanation for the retcon on Leliana makes sense.  It's still bad form to pull a fast one on players in regards to their game choices.  I'm sure the devs realize this and made a judgment call.  It's fair to disagree with that call, especially when it was not the only one.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 septembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[Wulfram]

I'm sure that even the most insular of Dwarves would realise that defiling the remains of this super important Human Paragon would make their followers go crazy.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm sure that even the most insular of Dwarves would realise that defiling the remains of this super important Human Paragon would make their followers go crazy.

If that's the case why doesn't Lelianna (and Wynne) go crazy or at least yell out against taking Father Kolgrim up on his deal at all?  Alistair does advise against him, but Alistair goes along and so does Zevran (who is an Andrastian as well).  For that matter when you decide your group, you don't know (in character) that destroying the ashes will even be an option. 

You are looking for allies, and it can seem perfectly reasonable especially to a non-Andrastian Warden that he or she could use them whereever they can find them, and if that means pouring some dragon blood in an old urn, so much the better.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

I don't think Leliana ever really considers that you might actually go through with it. And she knows the importance of staying in character while you're pulling the wool over Kolgrim's eyes.