125 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

I don't recall having the option to kill Leliana in DAO. I don't think that was a choice the Warden was able to make.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

I don't recall having the option to kill Leliana in DAO. I don't think that was a choice the Warden was able to make.

The Warden can kill Leliana and Wynne in self-defense at the ruined temple, where Andraste's ashes can be found.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm sure that even the most insular of Dwarves would realise that defiling the remains of this super important Human Paragon would make their followers go crazy.

You needn't be a dwarf.  I would have liked a Persuade option where you can chastise the both of them for their lack of faith, that they think the wonder-working power of Andraste's mojo can be undone by a blood magic ritual.

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can kill Leliana and Wynne in self-defense at the ruined temple, where Andraste's ashes can be found.

But that wasn't a choice to kill Leliana. The choice there was to defile the ashes. One of the consequences of that choice was that Leliana attacks the Warden. The Warden doesn't get a "kill Leliana" option in DAO. As such, Bioware is not retconing your choices. The consequences of your decisions were not what you originally thought they were.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can kill Leliana and Wynne in self-defense at the ruined temple, where Andraste's ashes can be found.

But that wasn't a choice to kill Leliana. The choice there was to defile the ashes. One of the consequences of that choice was that Leliana attacks the Warden. The Warden doesn't get a "kill Leliana" option in DAO. As such, Bioware is not retconing your choices. The consequences of your decisions were not what you originally thought they were.

And you "choice" to kill Wynne wasn't actually a choice to explicity kill Wynne, but to move to cleanse the tower regardless of what this old woman had to say.  In fact, if you have morrigan in the group Wynne will attack you just for agreeing with Morrigan.

Wynne stays dead though.  Lels does not.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

And you "choice" to kill Wynne wasn't actually a choice to explicity kill Wynne, but to move to cleanse the tower regardless of what this old woman had to say.  In fact, if you have morrigan in the group Wynne will attack you just for agreeing with Morrigan.

Wynne stays dead though.  Lels does not.

-Polaris

As far as you know.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can kill Leliana and Wynne in self-defense at the ruined temple, where Andraste's ashes can be found.

But that wasn't a choice to kill Leliana. The choice there was to defile the ashes. One of the consequences of that choice was that Leliana attacks the Warden. The Warden doesn't get a "kill Leliana" option in DAO. As such, Bioware is not retconing your choices. The consequences of your decisions were not what you originally thought they were.

The Warden can coerce a personality hardened Leliana, or not, and The Warden proceeds to kill her. Leliana being alive if The Warden killed her is a recton, because it changes the narrative that previously existed in Origins for the new story in Dragon Age 2 - i.e. she is alive now in this new story, when she was previously killed if The Warden destroyed the ashes and proceeded to kill her.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

And you "choice" to kill Wynne wasn't actually a choice to explicity kill Wynne, but to move to cleanse the tower regardless of what this old woman had to say.  In fact, if you have morrigan in the group Wynne will attack you just for agreeing with Morrigan.

Wynne stays dead though.  Lels does not.

-Polaris

As far as you know.

She does and clearly does.  Lels does not.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can kill Leliana and Wynne in self-defense at the ruined temple, where Andraste's ashes can be found.

But that wasn't a choice to kill Leliana. The choice there was to defile the ashes. One of the consequences of that choice was that Leliana attacks the Warden. The Warden doesn't get a "kill Leliana" option in DAO. As such, Bioware is not retconing your choices. The consequences of your decisions were not what you originally thought they were.

Then there is never a "kill X" option, if they can always be brought back by miraculous means.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are epilogue slides that state Leliana is dead.

Right, right, unreliable narrator/ gossip blah blah.  The gist is, you create certain expectations by giving game choices and showing consequences.  If you cheat those, there had better be a good reason or your audience starts to eyebrow raise and eventually call BS.  Apparently they thought there was a good reason to bring Leliana back- which probably means we'll see her again (*heavy sigh*).  If not, and it was just fanservice and/or sentimental attachment to the character, that's pretty cheesy.

Now in DA2, they did away with epilogues, but that ends up leaving an incomplete story.  And as horn babe says, "without an end, there can be no peace."

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

You needn't be a dwarf.  I would have liked a Persuade option where you can chastise the both of them for their lack of faith, that they think the wonder-working power of Andraste's mojo can be undone by a blood magic ritual.

Taking a crap on the Shroud of Turin wouldn't effect the power of God.  It still shouldn't be a surprise that catholics are upset by it.

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can coerce a personality hardened Leliana, or not, and The Warden proceeds to kill her. Leliana being alive if The Warden killed her is a recton, because it changes the narrative that previously existed in Origins for the new story in Dragon Age 2 - i.e. she is alive now in this new story, when she was previously killed if The Warden destroyed the ashes and proceeded to kill her.

No. The Warden attacked her and presumed that he killed her. There is no guarantee that the Warden finished her off. The choice made was to "defile ashes", not "kill Leliana". You were not given a direct choice to kill her. Fighting her was a consequence of a choice. The consequences are fully the prerogative of the writer. The choice options are a marriage of the writer's intent and the player's will. Fighting Leliana is a consequence and not a choice and, as such, what the player chooses has no bearing on it.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can coerce a personality hardened Leliana, or not, and The Warden proceeds to kill her. Leliana being alive if The Warden killed her is a recton, because it changes the narrative that previously existed in Origins for the new story in Dragon Age 2 - i.e. she is alive now in this new story, when she was previously killed if The Warden destroyed the ashes and proceeded to kill her.

No. The Warden attacked her and presumed that he killed her. There is no guarantee that the Warden finished her off.

Am I supposed to take that argument seriously? Under that line of reasoning, no one is dead because there's never a guarantee that The Warden ever finished them off. Loghain, the Archdemon, Arl Howe, pretty much everyone could be brought back to life because there's no guarantee that they are really dead.

Zanallen wrote...

The choice made was to "defile ashes", not "kill Leliana". You were not given a direct choice to kill her. Fighting her was a consequence of a choice. The consequences are fully the prerogative of the writer. The choice options are a marriage of the writer's intent and the player's will. Fighting Leliana is a consequence and not a choice and, as such, what the player chooses has no bearing on it.

It doesn't change that it's a recton of Leliana being dead in Origins, and now being alive in Dragon Age 2.

[Zanallen]

Addai67 wrote...

Then there is never a "kill X" option, if they can always be brought back by miraculous means.

No. There is a difference between the PC having an in-game option to kill someone and having a fight occur as a consequence of choosing a specific path. It is the difference between the "kill Anders" option in DA2 and Anders supposedly dying if you leave him in the keep while defending Amaranthine in Awakening.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

First, your personal opinion aside, it's still The Warden killing Leliana and Wynne if they are brought along, regardless of how you feel about the situation and the decision.

Second, the game mechanic of Leliana "faking her death" via game mechanics as an explanation for how she survived the Warden killing her.

It still makes no amount of sense to bring her to where a sacred relic is with the explicit intent on defiling those Ashes however much a person tries to rationalize it.

Addai67 wrote...


The Warden could not have known for sure that there were actually ashes, let alone miraculous ashes, before going up on the mountaintop.  So how many people go up there intending to destroy them?  Secondly, you wouldn't have known there would be a crazy cult leader who would offer you a compromise.  When I rp'ed destroying the ashes, it was on a dwarf who had no belief in Andraste and saw a way to avoid further killing.  A rather Andrastian principle, I would think.  Third, you ought to be able to trust the people in your party not to try to kill you over something so intangible as belief in magic dust.

First, the fact that the cultists act so shady when one asks about the ashes or even the scholar who was researching the ashes should be proof enough that ashes do exist.

Second, when Kolgrim comments in the cavern that the ashes are indeed real and have magical powers (which I know is after the mountaintop), you know that they're magical ashes.

Third, how can a Dwarf believe in an Andrastian principle if he/she believes Andraste and everything about her is a crock?

Fourth, the mountain where the High Dragon is located does allow for party swapping, which is the equivalent of asking your companions to take up positions in the rear with the rest of the companions who aren't in the party in case of an ambush (at least that's how I rationalize it since they're always on the move and guarding a camp is silly).

Frankly, were I Leliana I would think my companion would show respect to a relic of obvious great importance to the people who believe in it. Advocating the defilement of the ashes in front of two people who believe in the Andrastian faith more than the rest of the party is a dick move. That's like if Leliana were leading Xanthos Aeducan and Oghren and she took a **** on the Anvil of the Void because some crazy Dwarves said it would render it useless and she agreed it was a necessary thing to do.

It's a dick move because you're doing it in front of your companions who believe in it.

Hell, is it even necessary to defile the Ashes? Is it possible to say you'll defile them and then either lie to Kolgrim or just avoid him altogether?

The Guardian is not just pissed off- he is distraught.  But I agree with you that the explanation for the retcon on Leliana makes sense.  It's still bad form to pull a fast one on players in regards to their game choices.  I'm sure the devs realize this and made a judgment call.  It's fair to disagree with that call, especially when it was not the only one.

No, I agree that it was a bad judgment call on their part to mislead the player. A simple codex or better yet a cutscene showing Leliana alive, bleeding profusely, and staring at the Warden with sadness or some other emotion in DAO would've been enough.

However, her DAII codex and her very comments on the subject say that she died, but was brought back. This is no different than the tales of Jesus Christ raising Lazarus from the dead or anyone else. They died, but were brought back to life.

As for the Guardian, distraught doesn't really mean much. He says he's tied to the Ashes doesn't he? I'm willing to bet he could feel a change in their power (which isn't the same as them being rendered useless). I know that Oghren remarks that the lyrium in the mountain may be keeping him alive, but it's possible the lyrium is what gave the Ashes their power in the first place. Or even added to the power her Ashes already possessed.

So he'd still be tied to the lyrium and the Ashes.

IanPolaris wrote...

If that's the case why doesn't Lelianna (and Wynne) go crazy or at least yell out against taking Father Kolgrim up on his deal at all?  Alistair does advise against him, but Alistair goes along and so does Zevran (who is an Andrastian as well).  For that matter when you decide your group, you don't know (in character) that destroying the ashes will even be an option. 

You are looking for allies, and it can seem perfectly reasonable especially to a non-Andrastian Warden that he or she could use them whereever they can find them, and if that means pouring some dragon blood in an old urn, so much the better.

Except that they do speak up against him if they're in the party when the Warden talks to Kolgrim.

And you get the option to swap out your party after meeting with Kolgrim (on top of the mountain where the High Dragon is). So your party is never set in stone.

Why would a Warden want a village to be his allies, especially when he's killed most of them? That's not very good. If the Urn wasn't defiled, it would serve as a morale boost to the Fereldan army.

And you "choice" to kill Wynne wasn't actually a choice to explicity kill Wynne, but to move to cleanse the tower regardless of what this old woman had to say.  In fact, if you have morrigan in the group Wynne will attack you just for agreeing with Morrigan.

Wynne stays dead though.  Lels does not.

-Polaris

*cough cough Awakening cough cough*

...unless that was a bug.

Killing Wynne at the Circle is different. You're advocating killing all mages. She's a mage. Ipso facto, she needs to die (assuming you go the RoA route). Defiling the ashes has nothing to do with killing Andrastians, and isn't relevant. Fighting Leliana is a consequence of a choice, not a choice itself.

Even should Wynne reappear, she has a perfectly valid reason for doing so: the Spirit of Faith. It saved her once when she died the first time and it could theoretically do it again, though probably at great expense to its very being.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 septembre 2011 - 08:35 .

[IanPolaris]

If you kill Wynne in the Tower she does NOT reappear in Awakenings. Yes, I just checked. The only time it's a bug is if you killed Wynne when she tries to rat you out as a bloodmage but for most people that scene is disabled.

-Polaris

[erilben]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you kill Wynne in the Tower she does NOT reappear in Awakenings. Yes, I just checked. The only time it's a bug is if you killed Wynne when she tries to rat you out as a bloodmage but for most people that scene is disabled.

-Polaris

If the Warden is not a mage, Anders will say in DA2 that "The Blight was stopped only with the aid of two mages, one an apostate!"  And if you look at DA2's world vault, there's no flags for Wynne's fate.

Modifié par erilben, 30 septembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[TEWR]

@IanPolaris:

That doesn't mean much really. Ferelden's a big country, and if she was brought back to life I doubt she would go to the same Arling that the person who killed her is in.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 septembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[jamesp81]

enderandrew wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think it was blatent disrespect on the part of Bioware to their customers. If Lelianna could die in DAO, then she should stay dead, and another Seeker should have taken her place. This is BW's developers taking a dump on their customers and disrespecting them.

-Polaris

And if her ending in DA:O was to stay with the Warden, and suddenly having them apart with no explanation also effectively eliminates the choice the player made.

Complex/branching stories are not easy to tell. So I don't think I'd go so far as to say this is taking a dump on the customer. At some point you can't have everything branch over and over again.

This.

The DA team never promised the sort of branching story that Mass Effect did.  Even if they had, the ME team is finding out the hard way just how difficult / impossible it is to maintain a good narrative in the face of that many storyline branches.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you kill Wynne in the Tower she does NOT reappear in Awakenings. Yes, I just checked. The only time it's a bug is if you killed Wynne when she tries to rat you out as a bloodmage but for most people that scene is disabled.

-Polaris

It was an early bug that was fixed in a patch.  I had zombie Wynne show up in one game, but once it was fixed she didn't.

Wynne has a better reason than Leliana to only be mostly dead.

[jamesp81]

IanPolaris wrote...

enderandrew wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think it was blatent disrespect on the part of Bioware to their customers. If Lelianna could die in DAO, then she should stay dead, and another Seeker should have taken her place. This is BW's developers taking a dump on their customers and disrespecting them.

-Polaris

And if her ending in DA:O was to stay with the Warden, and suddenly having them apart with no explanation also effectively eliminates the choice the player made.

Complex/branching stories are not easy to tell. So I don't think I'd go so far as to say this is taking a dump on the customer. At some point you can't have everything branch over and over again.

I would say it's dumping on the customer. It's a blatenant an unapolegetic retcon that says quite blatently that "Hell with you customer, your game and your choices don't matter" (which is poison to an RPG).  It was also totally unncessary.  I see nothing intrinstic about the Lelianna character that requires her presence in "Faith" or even as head of the Seekers.  The game should have had a binary switch.  Either Lelianna was available or she was not.  If she was, then by all means use her.  If not, then use some other Chantry Affirmed Sister.  It's not that hard.

-Polaris

But it IS expensive.  Voice acting and art work aren't free.

[Addai]

Zanallen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Then there is never a "kill X" option, if they can always be brought back by miraculous means.

No. There is a difference between the PC having an in-game option to kill someone and having a fight occur as a consequence of choosing a specific path. It is the difference between the "kill Anders" option in DA2 and Anders supposedly dying if you leave him in the keep while defending Amaranthine in Awakening.

How many times do you actually have a "kill X" option?  Most deaths in Origins occur from dialogue choices that end up in a fight.

Regardless.  If someone is dead, they're still dead.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You needn't be a dwarf.  I would have liked a Persuade option where you can chastise the both of them for their lack of faith, that they think the wonder-working power of Andraste's mojo can be undone by a blood magic ritual.

Taking a crap on the Shroud of Turin wouldn't effect the power of God.  It still shouldn't be a surprise that catholics are upset by it.

Upset enough to kill over it?  Ok.  Whatever.  I do consider Wynne and Leliana to be mental, so it works for me.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You needn't be a dwarf.  I would have liked a Persuade option where you can chastise the both of them for their lack of faith, that they think the wonder-working power of Andraste's mojo can be undone by a blood magic ritual.

Taking a crap on the Shroud of Turin wouldn't effect the power of God.  It still shouldn't be a surprise that catholics are upset by it.

Upset enough to kill over it?  Ok.  Whatever.  I do consider Wynne and Leliana to be mental, so it works for me.

Personally I think it's reasonable for the warden to assume in character that Wynne and Lels would not be crazy enough to commit suicide by Warden over this.  Leaving the group?  Believable.  Suicide by Warden?  Less so.

-Polaris

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Frankly, were I Leliana I would think my companion would show respect to a relic of obvious great importance to the people who believe in it. Advocating the defilement of the ashes in front of two people who believe in the Andrastian faith more than the rest of the party is a dick move. That's like if Leliana were leading Xanthos Aeducan and Oghren and she took a **** on the Anvil of the Void because some crazy Dwarves said it would render it useless and she agreed it was a necessary thing to do.

Do you attack someone for being a dick?  Okay then.  Like I said above, that's about how highly I rate Wynne and Leliana anyway.  Especially when they should know it's suicide.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I wonder...if Flemeth can be a dragon, why couldn't Leliana be a phoenix? Hmm...maybe I'll go get a cappuccino and ponder that further.

I think maybe it was you that suggested this somewhere.

She's Andraste.  The Thedas version of the Second Coming.