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[Gemini1179]

Now, I'm only 32 (trying not to date myself to badly), but every time I play DA2 and get to the final climactic event, I can't help but laugh at Sebastian and think of Raymund Burr's character in "Godzilla, King of the Monsters". He was shoe-horned into the movie on the sidelines with scenes filmed in America which were cut into the Japanses version of the film for release in North America.

Sebastian is much like that character in that nobody really notices all his drama AT ALL and I find it simply hilarious. It's all very well done as far as the story goes, and I'm not laughing at the character's pain, just how the situation plays out.

Please note, this isn't Sebastian hate even though I find the character as ignorant and apathetic as Elthina, but the girls seem to just love him regardless and I don't judge. I love Merrill and think Isabela is more 'drinking buddy' material and there are those that think Merrill is crazy and Isabela is God's gift to Men- so to each his own. This post is more about the feeling of a character's scenes seeming 'shoehorned' into the spotlight when they probably aren't needed.

Anyone else think Raymund Burr, or was it just me?

If you didn't before, watch "Godzilla, King of the Monsters", and then the end of DA2 and you'll get it.

If I were to provide some constructive feedback on the character of Sebastian and his involvement in the DA2 overall story, I'd say he was only implimented in a half-measure. It is not more evident than in Act 2 and the quests involving Mother Patrice- you'd think he'd have had something to say to her. Sure, he has a line or two with Hawke about "you can't possibly believe Elthina..." but it really isn't enough.

PS- BioWare, you couldn't let us stab Patrice a couple of times just for good measure? I've never wished violence upon a woman, but that digital creation had it coming and then some- a testament to the writing, voice acting and digital work.

[Foolsfolly]

Sebastian is much like that character in that nobody really notices all his drama AT ALL and I find it simply hilarious. It's all very well done as far as the story goes, and I'm not laughing at the character's pain, just how the situation plays out.

I'll say this, it's weird.

I played the game twice without Seb. So I'd seen both endings without the guy before I ever met him. And the Chantry explosion scene is handled well between Anders, Meredith, Orsino, and Hawke. It feels like it works.

Then when I got there with Seb in the game it cuts to him screaming, saying things that go unnoticed, and generally ruining the cadence of the scene. Would I feel differently if he was always there?

Maybe?

But to this day it's weird to me. When he starts talking a bit more to Hawke one-on-one about Anders it works better. But that scene right after the explosion is weird to me.

[Gemini1179]

Foolsfolly wrote...

But to this day it's weird to me. When he starts talking a bit more to Hawke one-on-one about Anders it works better. But that scene right after the explosion is weird to me.

Especially when he spouts his line about "why are we debating this when the Mage responsible is right here" and everyone's head is turned in his direction, then turns back to eachother and they go on as if they never heard him. It just makes me laugh at the absurdity every time. I really had to get that off my chest.

[Gervaise]

Sebastian in that part is a bit like a scene in Friends where Chandler keeps saying things and nobody seems to notice him or react to them and he comments "should I use my invisibility for good or evil?" Then everyone wonders why Sebastian overacts when Hawke frees Anders - "what do you have to do to get noticed around here, threaten an invasion?" - and then Hawke and company still don't register that they have heard him - he's threatening Kirkwall - you'd think Averline and Varric would have something to say about that. Most of the criticisms of Sebastian really result for lack of development of his character by the writers and failure to intergrate him properly into the story. Since part of his download is actually quite relevant to the main plot (the information about the resolutionists and their agenda, plus how the situation in Kirkwall is being viewed by the wider world) I feel Sebastian should have been there from the beginning, properly intergrated with the other characters and the storyline and those elements connected to him should have been dealt with in more depth.
Still, Sebastian isn't the only illogical scene in the entire story. How long have you got?

[esper]

I think that nobody who has been on this board for some time doubt that I am very, very promage and in favour of Anders. But to compare Sebastian to Elthina is an insult. Sebastian is actually speaking against the rebellion in act 3. He wants Elthina to step into place or flee because he fears for her life. He actually expresses the chantry opinion better than she does.

As for the Anders scene. Sebastian's surrogate mother just got blown up. He has every right to be emtional and make irrantional threats at that moment. I am sure that he is intelligent enough to realise (once he has calmed down) that his words are meaningless and because there is no way that Hawke and Anders are staying in Kirkwall. (If he don't realise that I take everything nice said about him back, but so far Sebastian has not pulled a Leliana on me and I actually think that he is an intelligent and good hearted person.)

[schalafi]

Every time I play Sebastian I wonder about half way through the game, why I did. I know he has a lot of fans, and that's fine with me, but I find him childish and annoying. If he'd just shut up about Andraste and stop preaching to my npc's I'd take him for his archery ability, but he just keeps going on and on about religion.

I agree that Sebastian just wasn't integrated into the story line well enough, and I think I'll try playing without him next time. He just doesn't really have much to offer to the plot, and his meltdown after the Chantry explosion was embarrassing to watch.

[The Xand]

Ye cannae hate Sebastien. Ye jist cannae hate him! Seemed a lil odd for someone voiced by a Scot to be so religious though

Get where you're coming from about him being a royal pain in the airse though, I always brought him around with Anders just to hear them argue.

[schalafi]

The Xand wrote...

Ye cannae hate Sebastien. Ye jist cannae hate him! Seemed a lil odd for someone voiced by a Scot to be so religious though

Get where you're coming from about him being a royal pain in the airse though, I always brought him around with Anders just to hear them argue.

Yes, I particularly liked Sebastion's comment about "looking at the clouds" when Anders thought he was talking about himself.

[Porenferser]

Sebastian is alright.
The end was just staged pretty stupid, not just in this way.
He and Fenris together = Total bros^^

[Gervaise]

Sebastian discusses his religion with people but actually he doesn't force it down their throats in the way that Anders and Fenris push their respective agendas. He is not confrontational but just likes to make people think and does not respond aggresively if they don't agree with him. (The only exception to this being when Anders calls Elthina a "doddering old biddy" and of course at the end with respect to Anders). He actually suggests that maybe he and Merrill are talking about the same divine force but viewed in a different way even though she polytheistic, which is pretty broad minded. And he says to Isabella that he tries to convert by example rather than empty rhetoric. Of course he is not perfect but he does try to live by his beliefs, even if he does have occasional lapses. His faith has given him a great sense of personal peace and made a great difference in his life - he wishes to share this joy and give others the opportunity to share it. I find it refreshing that we are actually presented with a religious minded person who is willing to listen, not just condemn, and is sincerely trying to follow the Chant of Light. When all is said and done, if you don't free Anders, he will stay with you and defend the mages against the Templars - that for a chantry brother is actually rather amazing but for me shows that it is possible to change hearts and minds by means other than terrorism. Give the poor lad a break.

The Xand - that comment about it being strange a religious person being voiced by a Scot. Have you never studied Scottish history? Start with Saint Columba and work through to the present day and I think you'll get what I mean.

[Melca36]

Sorry Gervaise,

He is nothing but a Zealot to me. Telling Fenris it was the Makers will for that child to be killed is BS to me. I never recruit him anymore.

If he wanted Anders dead, there should have been an option for him to attack him and Hawke should have had the option to stop him or let him kill him.

[Foolsfolly]

He is nothing but a Zealot to me.

He's not a zealot. He wants to avoid the war, protect the Grand Cleric, and doesn't hate mages (despite not wanting to go into the Fade, which I always assumed was because they couldn't integrate him well enough in there).

Petrice is a zealot. She rallies people to a cause of intolerance and stirs up a war because of her beliefs.

Nothing I'll say will change your opinion, nor do I care to (I'm not Seb's greatest fan either) but just because he believes in the Maker does not make him a zealot anymore than it made Alistair and Leliana. The guy's a member of the Chantry, well he was and he wants to be again (but I always rival him so he'll be a Prince where he can do real good.)

I really think the hatred for him is because he threatens war. And frankly, Anders is a terrorist who just killed untold innocents. War is exactly what will happen any way.

[Melca36]

Foolsfolly wrote...

He is nothing but a Zealot to me.

He's not a zealot. He wants to avoid the war, protect the Grand Cleric, and doesn't hate mages (despite not wanting to go into the Fade, which I always assumed was because they couldn't integrate him well enough in there).

Petrice is a zealot. She rallies people to a cause of intolerance and stirs up a war because of her beliefs.

Nothing I'll say will change your opinion, nor do I care to (I'm not Seb's greatest fan either) but just because he believes in the Maker does not make him a zealot anymore than it made Alistair and Leliana. The guy's a member of the Chantry, well he was and he wants to be again (but I always rival him so he'll be a Prince where he can do real good.)




I really think the hatred for him is because he threatens war. And frankly, Anders is a terrorist who just killed untold innocents. War is exactly what will happen any way.

LOL! Different strokes. And you people who think Anders wiped out 1000s of people make me laugh.

[Porenferser]

A zealot is Ser Varnell.
Sebastian sometimes talks weird, but he never ever acts fanatic.

[Nimrodell]

Sebastian's views on life and religion are something that is usually alien to modern men - tis not usual nowadays to actually have 'man of the faith' among ordinary people, living in secular society. If players were from 6th century, familiar with Benedictine order and what compelled young priests to join it or even better, Franciscan order (XIII century), then it would be much easier to understand him as a character. He has special view on life and faith and for most of his life, he was actually shielded from the world by living in cloister - the first time he actually has collision with real life is actually assassinations of his family and as we can see - he's not capable of handling it, processing it, understanding it and instead of trying to embrace the realities of the world outside the Chantry - he's closing himself even further into something that he's more familiar with. He is not a man of the world, he's man of faith - bathing in doctrine, clumsy and naive in dealings with 'real' people (as we can see from all party banters). That's also one of the reasons for his 'righteous' anger when Chantry explodes - tis not just about Elthina - his secure shell was broken.

On the other hand, he's DLC character (tho he shouldn't have been, with such background - the abyss between him and players is almost deep as the abyss between God and humankind - way to different in perspectives). Of course he'll look even more out of place, weak even, considering the fact that DLC characters seldom have space in game itself like original ones.

Btw, I'm a female, but I don't like him - he has pleasant face enough (and that's why some girls react to him - not 'cause of his charisma or wisdom) and that's just not enough. He could have been great character, something utterly new in games, but I guess, the curse of DLC characters befell him too.

[Gemini1179]

Nimrodell wrote...

Sebastian's views on life and religion are something that is usually alien to modern men - tis not usual nowadays to actually have 'man of the faith' among ordinary people, living in secular society. If players were from 6th century, familiar with Benedictine order and what compelled young priests to join it or even better, Franciscan order (XIII century), then it would be much easier to understand him as a character. He has special view on life and faith and for most of his life, he was actually shielded from the world by living in cloister - the first time he actually has collision with real life is actually assassinations of his family and as we can see - he's not capable of handling it, processing it, understanding it and instead of trying to embrace the realities of the world outside the Chantry - he's closing himself even further into something that he's more familiar with. He is not a man of the world, he's man of faith - bathing in doctrine, clumsy and naive in dealings with 'real' people (as we can see from all party banters). That's also one of the reasons for his 'righteous' anger when Chantry explodes - tis not just about Elthina - his secure shell was broken.

While I would normally agree with all of this, his comments to Isabela about how he himself spent many a nights enjoying the carnal pleasures leads me to think that the truth, that is captured somewhat through his conversations with Hawke, is that he's someone who led one life, was forced to change due to circumstances beyond their control and is now struggling with his choice. That is why I find his 'preachy' side to have no real teeth. He often says a lot that sounds like it might have some weight to it, when it actually doesn't. His conversation with Anders is yet another contradiction in his 'beliefs' and his actions. He says no one really has control over their lives as they are in the Makers hands, and yet when he decides that what happens is not the Makers will (by his own decision, apparently) he threatens to act.

This is part of my comparison of Sebastian to Elthina. Both profess that the best course of action is to 'wait and hope' but then they don't really approve when things don't pan out according to how they think it should.

Elthina's epic failure, IMO was her inaction. Not just 'picking a side', but really making a difference. For example, it is a rare act of bravery for a regular person to step in front of a man with a gun and try to talk him down. Is it the same act of bravery for Clark Kent to do it? Those not knowing his true nature would believe so, but to him, his power is what enables him to make the extra effort to talk someone down that he KNOWS he could disarm without any risk.

Elthina could have used her position in the Chantry to give herself the strength to make the extra effort to find a peace between the Mages and Templars, but she chose to keep her eyes and ears closed and 'leave it in the Makers hands'. This is the fundamental dogmatic flaw in the Chantry as I see it.

We've been thrown from our nest but we refuse to flap our wings because we believe we made a mistake that got us kicked out in the first place and if we're really good, mamma bird will swoop down and save us from having to make our own path.

And... as we all know, say it with me now... "swooping, is bad."

[Foolsfolly]

And you people who think Anders wiped out 1000s of people make me laugh.

The brothers, sisters, and mothers you'd find an a Chantry that large (it was a huge building). Plus any civilians who walk in (which can be anyone but they also take care of orphans and the like). Then there's the massive amount of burning debris which rain far and wide, you can even see pieces hit Sundermount.

I never said "1000s" but it's easy to see dozens if not a few hundred deaths that Anders is directly responsible for. And then all the deaths after in the riot and eventual Annulment that his actions spurred.

So, yeah, he killed an awful lot of people in that stupid gesture of his.

[Porenferser]

And don't forget the casualties in the worldwide war, that was also caused by his actions.

[Nimrodell]

Gemini1179 wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Sebastian's views on life and religion are something that is usually alien to modern men - tis not usual nowadays to actually have 'man of the faith' among ordinary people, living in secular society. If players were from 6th century, familiar with Benedictine order and what compelled young priests to join it or even better, Franciscan order (XIII century), then it would be much easier to understand him as a character. He has special view on life and faith and for most of his life, he was actually shielded from the world by living in cloister - the first time he actually has collision with real life is actually assassinations of his family and as we can see - he's not capable of handling it, processing it, understanding it and instead of trying to embrace the realities of the world outside the Chantry - he's closing himself even further into something that he's more familiar with. He is not a man of the world, he's man of faith - bathing in doctrine, clumsy and naive in dealings with 'real' people (as we can see from all party banters). That's also one of the reasons for his 'righteous' anger when Chantry explodes - tis not just about Elthina - his secure shell was broken.

While I would normally agree with all of this, his comments to Isabela about how he himself spent many a nights enjoying the carnal pleasures leads me to think that the truth, that is captured somewhat through his conversations with Hawke, is that he's someone who led one life, was forced to change due to circumstances beyond their control and is now struggling with his choice. That is why I find his 'preachy' side to have no real teeth. He often says a lot that sounds like it might have some weight to it, when it actually doesn't. His conversation with Anders is yet another contradiction in his 'beliefs' and his actions. He says no one really has control over their lives as they are in the Makers hands, and yet when he decides that what happens is not the Makers will (by his own decision, apparently) he threatens to act.

This is part of my comparison of Sebastian to Elthina. Both profess that the best course of action is to 'wait and hope' but then they don't really approve when things don't pan out according to how they think it should.

Elthina's epic failure, IMO was her inaction. Not just 'picking a side', but really making a difference. For example, it is a rare act of bravery for a regular person to step in front of a man with a gun and try to talk him down. Is it the same act of bravery for Clark Kent to do it? Those not knowing his true nature would believe so, but to him, his power is what enables him to make the extra effort to talk someone down that he KNOWS he could disarm without any risk.

Elthina could have used her position in the Chantry to give herself the strength to make the extra effort to find a peace between the Mages and Templars, but she chose to keep her eyes and ears closed and 'leave it in the Makers hands'. This is the fundamental dogmatic flaw in the Chantry as I see it.

We've been thrown from our nest but we refuse to flap our wings because we believe we made a mistake that got us kicked out in the first place and if we're really good, mamma bird will swoop down and save us from having to make our own path.

And... as we all know, say it with me now... "swooping, is bad."

That was exactly my point - using religion, doctrine as a shield, though his righteous anger is justified in his eyes 'cause he doesn't perceive the Maker as we do. Let me be more clear, Andrastians didn't solve the major 'Maker has only benevolence' thing as Christians did and yet, they still continue regarding him as Christians see their God. Free will is the biggest Christian catch ever - it simplifies the origins of evil and its connection to the God - Free will absolves God from the idea of dualistic nature - he's good and all evil stems from men. With Maker we don't have such situation, he's more like original Jahveh but Andrastians are interpreting him as Christians would when it suits them. With condemning Anders for blowing up the Chantry, he interprets Maker's will selectively and that's quite common thing in religion, even nowadays. When we look at the First Crusade, you can see that that is the mechanism, especially if you compare teachings of Jesus Christ and what papa Urban actually preached. Sebastian is too man of flesh and blood armoured with religious shell and he actually behaves as many would do - calling up the Maker's name and interpreting his deeds as it suits him - he's not fatalist as Elthina and he uses his faith selectively.

The best catch and question is - what kind of nature Maker has? Chantry claims that it is benevolent one and yet, there's no explicit concept of Free will... he is the god that abandoned his First children even the guilt of imperfection wasn't on their shoulder, then abandoned the second ones after their sin... not even going into whole Maferath-Andraste meddling... and yet Chantry perceives him as benevolent higher being - meaning, there's selective point of view from the very start. Just as Sebastian does with Hawke - when Hawke asks what's the best thing for Starkhaven people - Sebastian will say that the fields will be cropped, the life will go on no matter who's ruling and yet again, he'll be the one pushing Hawke for the viscount seat, saying quite the opposite things. It's not inconsistence, tis just how people work and how his beloved Chantry works - seeing and saying only that suits him and his views, his perception.

[syllogi]

Foolsfolly wrote...

And you people who think Anders wiped out 1000s of people make me laugh.

The brothers, sisters, and mothers you'd find an a Chantry that large (it was a huge building). Plus any civilians who walk in (which can be anyone but they also take care of orphans and the like). Then there's the massive amount of burning debris which rain far and wide, you can even see pieces hit Sundermount.

I never said "1000s" but it's easy to see dozens if not a few hundred deaths that Anders is directly responsible for. And then all the deaths after in the riot and eventual Annulment that his actions spurred.

So, yeah, he killed an awful lot of people in that stupid gesture of his.

Yep, exactly.  Even if he had only killed a handful of people, they were innocents who didn't deserve to die for the abuses of others.  But he did cause the death of many more than a handful, it's a fact.  I have no idea why this silly strawman keeps coming up, every death in Kirkwall on that day, after the Chantry explodes, is Anders' fault.

[schalafi]

I see Sebastian as a conflicted and insecure man, who clings to Elthina for support, and tries to convince himself that the Maker will make all the important decisions for him, since he can't decide what he reall;y wants to be. I don't think he's evil, but he's weak.

[happy_daiz]

TeenZombie wrote...
*snip*
...every death in Kirkwall on that day, after the Chantry explodes, is Anders' fault.

Which is why he usually gets the murder knife in my playthroughs. 

OK, that's not my reason why. Mostly it's because I usually side with the Templars, and have silly fangirl dreams that maybe someday BW will allow my femHawkes a real romance with Sebastian. 

Modifié par happy_daiz, 29 septembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Melca36 wrote...

LOL! Different strokes. And you people who think Anders wiped out 1000s of people make me laugh.

Irrelevant. Even if Anders just did  perfect, a Grand Cleric sized explosion, he's still a terrorist. And  for the record, I'm sympathetic and like the guy.

[Gemini1179]

schalafi wrote...

I see Sebastian as a conflicted and insecure man, who clings to Elthina for support, and tries to convince himself that the Maker will make all the important decisions for him, since he can't decide what he reall;y wants to be. I don't think he's evil, but he's weak.

^^ Bang on.

For those who think Anders is a terrorist- history often paints these people as terrorists OR revolutionaries. The first five or six times I played the game, I wasn't sympathetic to him and thought what he did was despicable. After playing through several more times and really talking to everyone and listening to what they had to say, while I don't condone his actions, I understand them.

For those who lable him a terrorist for killing innnocents, wouldn't the 'Divine' herself need to be called one if she called for an Exhalted March on Kirkwall? As Elthina herself said, "were no innocents killed during the Exhalted Marches?" - which were ordered by the then Divine- so it's again about perspecitve.

Innocence is a matter of perspective as well. For all we know, the good people of the Chantry did nothing but preach and perform acts of charity. BUT, if the Chantry oversees the Templars, and the Templars commit rapes and abuses upon Mages- as Anders points out does happen- then is the Chantry not guilty of condoning these actions through their own inability to properly control the Templars?

Evil wins when good people do nothing. Elthina may be a good woman, but she keeps herself blind to injustice after injustice. Really, if it wasn't Anders, it would have been someone else.

[Nimrodell]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

LOL! Different strokes. And you people who think Anders wiped out 1000s of people make me laugh.

Irrelevant. Even if Anders just did  perfect, a Grand Cleric sized explosion, he's still a terrorist. And  for the record, I'm sympathetic and like the guy.

Ah Jack, I expected some witty post from you, the one full of laughter and Lo! Suddenly, you're serious . To be honest, dear, I don't know how much of it was Anders and how much it was Justice - being from Fade, that still doesn't grasp the concept of gray areas. To be honest, I don't think that writers executed that whole Chantry explosion idea very well... it seemed to me that they actually understand the entire 'desperate fighting for freedom' concept, but with that explosion they delivered something else. It takes wisdom and being on both sides in order to understand how desperate fight for beliefs and freedom can get and I'm talking from personal experience of many years. Anders is terrorist and not in the same time. Luckily, he's fictional character, so people ar entitled to self-righteous or narrow or wide points of view on him without real thought on such problems, and that's good, this is a game, leisure time...  Now, keep posting witty comments, 'cause you and Mr. Kusy from ME forums always make my day - and to be honest, I could use some good laugh - selfish I know .