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[TEWR]

Leburns wrote....

The waves and enemies literally falling out of the sky for me to attack - Kiddie

First, this didn't actually happen all the time. There are plenty of instances where waves didn't drop from the sky.

That's not to say that no waves dropped from the sky. That would be a blatant falsehood on my part. But I'd say it was about a 50-50 split on waves appearing normally.

Second, how the hell does that make something "kiddie"?

Leburns wrote...

The super, over-the-top, impossible in real life, combat moves - Kiddie

I refer you to my blog where I go in depth on the abilities of each class and how they can be improved.

http://social.biowar...83/blog/209894/

however, advocating complete realism would make the game boring because then everyone would die in 2-3 hits and would bleed profusely.

Romance of talking, kissing, falling in bed and the next scene just talking about it - Kiddie

lack of nudity =/= "kiddie", especially with all of the sexual references littered throughout the game. If the sole basis for wanting nudity in a game is so one can feel entitled to say "It's for us grownups!", then that's shoddy reasoning.

Nudity can be done tastefully though, and imo should be included in the Dragon Age games.

Bodies exploding into unrealistic bits of jam - Kiddie

Yes, because a bug which a patch addressed and wherever it does appear from now on that can be attributed to the narrator embellishing (which would make sense given how he tells people Hawke tore the arms off an Ogre!) is clearly childish.

It was a bug in the game. Get over it. It's no longer a valid issue where every body goes KABLAMO!!

Stanley Woo wrote...

Now this particular complaint is one of my pet peeves, not because it's not true, but because it's so subjective and people keep bringing it up like it's a universal constant like c. Many people complain that, because they can't go around killing people and have the game react to all that change, there is no choice in videogames. Some complain that, because the end boss is the same no matter what choices you make, there is no choice in videogames. And finally, some complain that, because they can't do every little thing that they can in real life (like eat, sleep, defecate, kick someone in the shins, slap someone, steal from people, belch, maintain weapons and armour, etc.), there is no choice in videogames.

I disagree with a lot of that. I think choice can be presented in a number of different ways. And depending on which definition of "choice" you're talking about, I can agree with you or disagree with you. Quite a lot! but i'm also on the developer side, which has to take into account all these "choices" and implement their consequences in the game.

Sorry Mr. Woo, but I gotta disagree with you on this one (or so I think I'm going to disagree with you =P). The issue has nothing to do with those things you mentioned.

It has to do with Hawke's Rise to Power -- or lack thereof -- that was advertised for DAII.

Your rise to power begins now...

or something like that.

Hawke's story didn't have to be world changing, but it did have to be story changing.

As this is a no spoiler forum, I cannot go in depth like I'd want. But the reason people take issue with that has nothing to do with what you mentioned. Well, maybe with the endgame, but that's because you guys wanted another boss fight and slammed Harvestino in our faces even if we're pro-mage, when that whole entire battle could've been won for the mages (or at least most of the mages if we could actually employ some war tactics!)

Okay, minor spoiler given away... but that's just one of the things that I absolutely hated about DAII.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:34 .

[LeBurns]

Stanley Woo reponding to every point of my post - PRICELESS



Honestly I guess my definition of Kiddie is different than yours. But I am 47 so games like God of War are very childish to me.

[Morroian]

LeBurns wrote...

Honestly I guess my definition of Kiddie is different than yours. But I am 47 so games like God of War are very childish to me.

So........ you can't actually refute anything he said.

[seraphymon]

[quote] Stanley Woo wrote...
Art direction does not indicate anything without the content. It is a medium through which the visual content is delivered and stories are told. There are many "non-kiddie" genres and stories told through use of comparatively simplistic art styles. Read "Maus" some time for an example of how mature a "cartoon" can be.[/quote]

While there are shows out there that are meant for a more mature audience such as South park, ugly americans, etc. The first thing that comes to my mind with a cartoony style is that its meant for a younger audience, especially with enemies that look like skeletor or some sort of flunkies out of a power rangers season.

[quote]
Mortal Kombat, God of War, The Matrix, wuxia films, Hong kong action films, ANY ACTION MOVIE. Realism does not indicate maturity or sophistication. This relates to art direction and presentation of combat. any game that involves magic portrays characters doing things impossible in real life, but what is actually, physically involved in the casting of a magic spell? Is it over the top to require a wand and incant verbally, or is it over the top to wave your hands around in a certain way? Heck, is it over the top to do anything but exert your will or read from a spellbook?

And is capoeira considered "over the top, impossible in real life, combat moves?" is your criteria real life, in which case you're missing the point of what fiction is all about, or is your criteria "things you yourself cannot do"?[/quote]

Think your missing the point. We know that theres tons of games out there that have unrealistic things humans do. Only in games, books, and movies can that be done. But aside from casting magic when you have a sort of realistic setting and having normal humans going from realistic battles and fighting like from DAO, to over the top jumping and leaping across entire battlefiends in 1 second, it goes into just too much. I can just imagine how lame the battle of ostagar would have been given that DA2 combat animations replaced the DAO ones. This coupled with the cartoony style just makes it seem even more kiddie to me.

[quote]
Again, this is a matter of presentation. You don't like the fade to black, fine. but we're not dealing with a binary state here (ie. either it shows nudity or it's for children). the implication I'm seeing from the pro-nudity, pro-more mature content arguments in this thread are that if we don't show boobies, the game is meant for children. Sorry, but this is precisely the "mature content does not necessarily mean graphic nudity, sex and violence" argument the anti-more mature content side is against. This is also the argument that the pro-more mature content side is insisting it's not saying..

Yes, we could certainly show more nudity or sex in our love scenes because we are a mature game and we are creating our game for mature audiences, both in age and attitude. But we are not obligated to include such content, nor does its absence indicate a lack or reduction in the maturity of the game or its developer. As purportedly "mature" gamers, we should be able to discuss our preferences, suggestions, and critiques without such "immature" statements./quote]

It is because with your games your basically labeling what is ok to sho and what is not ok. The cheap way of censoring you did in origins was bad enough, but as someone who pointed out, going from ME1>DAO>ME2>DA2 you have gone more and more shy in showing any body parts. We have point out in other discussions of how stuff even such as nudity can be implemented in a tasteful way, examples being such as witcher 2, without  doing it just to show boobs.

You can have the same argument of showing blood or the way you implemented foul language in DA2. Language in DA2 i think was thrown in just to "say look we are mature, Isabella said BS" Your also not shy of people being exploding into pools of blood or decapitations. So when you are too shy in showing a particular aspect of maturity, and morphinmg other aspects such as how unrealistic blood is portrayed in DA2, its understandable someone calls it kiddie.

[quote]
Japanese manga, some of which is anything but childish. Again, this is matter of style and presentation, not maturity.[/quote]

and thats style and presentation is kiddie. Japanese managa  i think is a poor execuse to hide behind, especially when in those at least they do the bleeding and bbeing cut and blood spewing jobs much better and more realistic, and relatable.

[quote]
Obviously, you must care at least a little bit, or you wouldn't be here. And you must care more than just a little bit, otherwise you wouldn't be posting and trying to get your point heard and perhaps sympathized with. now, whether you care more than a bit is not my concern, but if you want to try and convince me Dragon Age II is a "kiddie" game, you're going to have to do a lot more than type "kiddie" after every thing you disagree with in the game. Sorry, but I can't agree with your agument[/quote]

And i can't agree with yours. Because everytime you play the it was a design direction, matter of style, or presentation. That direction, style, or presentation screams kiddie in some of the areas LeBurns mentioned. Some not so much in which i agree they dont, like impact or lack there of choice, wave system etc. But the others, i think your just trying to hide or sugar coat your words or you just honestly dont see how anything  in DA2 is kiddie. Then again  theres always things the devs are not gonna admit no matter how true it is.

[TheRealJayDee]

[quote]Stanley Woo wrote...

[quote]LeBurns wrote...
The cartoon art style (plain colors and little or no clutter anywhere) - Kiddie
[/quote]
Art direction does not indicate anything without the content. It is a medium through which the visual content is delivered and stories are told. There are many "non-kiddie" genres and stories told through use of comparatively simplistic art styles. Read "Maus" some time for an example of how mature a "cartoon" can be.
[/quote]

Art Spiegelman at least didn't decide to drastically change his art style between "My Father Bleeds History" and "And Here My Troubles Began", and it fit the story he told.


[quote]
[quote]The super, over-the-top, impossible in real life, combat moves - Kiddie
[/quote]
Mortal Kombat, God of War, The Matrix, wuxia films, Hong kong action films, ANY ACTION MOVIE. Realism does not indicate maturity or sophistication. This relates to art direction and presentation of combat. any game that involves magic portrays characters doing things impossible in real life, but what is actually, physically involved in the casting of a magic spell? Is it over the top to require a wand and incant verbally, or is it over the top to wave your hands around in a certain way? Heck, is it over the top to do anything but exert your will or read from a spellbook?
[/quote]

It would be helpful to decide from the start how such things work in the world you create, and how you present them to the player. Realism indeed isn’t an indicator of maturity and sophistication, but the degree of realism is pretty important for the identity of a game/movie/etc. Until DA2 I never saw Dragon Age next to Mortal Kombat and God of War in terms of style, and I wouldn’t have classified a movie adaptation of anything Dragon Age as an action movie.
 

[quote]
[quote]Romance of talking, kissing, falling in bed and the next scene just talking about it - Kiddie
[/quote]
Again, this is a matter of presentation. You don't like the fade to black, fine. but we're not dealing with a binary state here (ie. either it shows nudity or it's for children). the implication I'm seeing from the pro-nudity, pro-more mature content arguments in this thread are that if we don't show boobies, the game is meant for children. Sorry, but this is precisely the "mature content does not necessarily mean graphic nudity, sex and violence" argument the anti-more mature content side is against. This is also the argument that the pro-more mature content side is insisting it's not saying..

Yes, we could certainly show more nudity or sex in our love scenes because we are a mature game and we are creating our game for mature audiences, both in age and attitude. But we are not obligated to include such content, nor does its absence indicate a lack or reduction in the maturity of the game or its developer. As purportedly "mature" gamers, we should be able to discuss our preferences, suggestions, and critiques without such "immature" statements.
[/quote]

Of course it's BioWare's decision how to deal with things like that, but in an RPG that puts as much emphasis on relationships and romance as DA2 it is not out of place to ask for a little more balance between ott violence maturity and well done intimacy maturity.


 
[quote]
[quote]Bodies exploding into unrealistic bits of jam - Kiddie
[/quote]
Japanese manga, some of which is anything but childish. Again, this is  matter of style and presentation, not maturity.
[/quote]


Yeah, this again isn’t a matter of maturity, but of identity. I’d prefer Dragon Age not to look and feel like anime, no matter how mature it may be.
 
[quote]
[quote]Over stylized and over sized armor and weapons - Kiddie
[/quote]
Once again, a matter of visual presentation/art direction, not maturity.
[/quote]
See above.

[quote]
[quote]No real choices that matter - Kiddie
[/quote]
Now this particular complaint is one of my pet peeves, not because it's not true, but because it's so subjective and people keep bringing it up like it's a universal constant like c. Many people complain that, because they can't go around killing people and have the game react to all that change, there is no choice in videogames. Some complain that, because the end boss is the same no matter what choices you make, there is no choice in videogames. And finally, some complain that, because they can't do every little thing that they can in real life (like eat, sleep, defecate, kick someone in the shins, slap someone, steal from people, belch, maintain weapons and armour, etc.), there is no choice in videogames.

I disagree with a lot of that. I think choice can be presented in a number of different ways. And depending on which definition of "choice" you're talking about, I can agree with you or disagree with you. Quite a lot! but i'm also on the developer side, which has to take into account all these "choices" and implement their consequences in the game.

[/quote]
 
I would have been a lot happier if quests I decided to turn down didn’t appear as mandatory main story quests in my quest log. Or that if I’m given the choice to hand one of my companions over to the authorities said choice wouldn’t be nullified by plot induced stupidity. Etc.
 
 
Anyways, I guess I don’t agree with the “kiddie” label slapped on these problems DA2 had imo, but they are problems nonetheless.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 06 octobre 2011 - 12:21 .

[Pygmali0n]

Morroian wrote...

LeBurns wrote...

Honestly I guess my definition of Kiddie is different than yours. But I am 47 so games like God of War are very childish to me.

So........ you can't actually refute anything he said.

But what Stanley said was so nebulous and unrelated. In fact I was very surprised that a post that long contained so little substance to back up your assertions Stan.

- Art direction - Maus was very bleak - one of the points of the art style was that it was childish to throw its subject into a new light. If the style had no childish connotations then it would not have had the same impact.

- Waves, falling out of the sky - I'm sorry, but the defence put forward is non-sequitur and irrelevant. Think the Lord of the Rings story and within that world remember the childish fairy story that Tolkien imagined it would descend into - 'Mad Baggins' disappearing in a flash and reappearing with a bang.

- OTT moves/Mortal Kombat/Wuxia - Maturity may not be the exclusive property of realism, but you can guarantee that realism is mature. I've been a student of a truly martial form of tai chi for 8 years and along with my teacher I view modern wuxia as fairy stories. Its childish combat is annoying (though there was one good fight between the 2 women in Crouching Tiger...). Now I like fairy stories, the clean and the original dark versions, but the cleaned-up versions need to know their place. 

Romance etc. - Stan's simplified the argument and misrepresented what was said, but what he says in itself is reasonable.

Japanese manga - yes it is immature Stan, the fact that it can be gratuitously gory, violent and degrading just points to the fact that it is stuck in a cycle of teenage immaturity rather than pre-pubescent immaturity.

Armour - we're not going to carry out a scientific survey but there does seem to be a link between how young someone is and how large their armour will be - perhaps it's linked to a basic need for protection until you're fully mature and can defend yourself.

Limited character customisation - Not wanting to be spoon-fed is a sign of intelligence and maturity. Can't see how it relates in this case but yes, you could call the limited gameplay of Max Payne immature, and its story while noir was on the trashiest side of noir. WoW is incredibly immature, watch The Guild for a mature but fun treatment of its immature players. WoW's style I see is being copied by the new Star Wars MMO.

Choices - I don't know how this can be defended really, but on the implementation/developer side you have my sympathy about how much work would be needed. Clearly compared to DA:O, DA2 was a step back for the player in terms of choices and consequences.

Caring - I think that it was meant that after DA2, its defence by developers and what seems to be the subsequent direction, LeBurns cannot care about a resultant DA3 - he/she (and I) does care that the Dragon Age franchise has changed direction drastically from the original.

We do care, but we want Bioware to stop falling into the Lucas trap and realise what made DA:O great fun before it was meddled with and made too kiddie. It is a question of degree and DA2 took things too far the wrong way.

EDIT - ouch 3 rebuttals within 2 minutes - apologies Stan.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 06 octobre 2011 - 12:40 .

[LeBurns]

Morroian wrote...

LeBurns wrote...

Honestly I guess my definition of Kiddie is different than yours. But I am 47 so games like God of War are very childish to me.

So........ you can't actually refute anything he said.

Should I refute that my opinion is different than his?  His opinion isn't wrong so there is nothing to refute.  His opinion is different than mine however.  I strongly believe that DA2 was brought down several levels to be more 'kiddie' appealing.  I don't think that you can refute that I believe that can you?

[Stanley Woo]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sorry Mr. Woo, but I gotta disagree with you on this one (or so I think I'm going to disagree with you =P). The issue has nothing to do with those things you mentioned.

It has to do with Hawke's Rise to Power -- or lack thereof -- that was advertised for DAII.

Your rise to power begins now...

or something like that.

Hawke's story didn't have to be world changing, but it did have to be story changing.

As this is a no spoiler forum, I cannot go in depth like I'd want. But the reason people take issue with that has nothing to do with what you mentioned. Well, maybe with the endgame, but that's because you guys wanted another boss fight and slammed Harvestino in our faces even if we're pro-mage, when that whole entire battle could've been won for the mages (or at least most of the mages if we could actually employ some war tactics!)

Okay, minor spoiler given away... but that's just one of the things that I absolutely hated about DAII.

And that's a well articulated, justified explanation of the generic "choices don't matter" complaint, one that clearly points to things we actually did in or for the game. It is certainly an easier critique to look into, and is far more universally accepted, than a comment like "lack of real choices that matter - kiddie."

We can work with "Hawke's story didn't have to be world changing, but it did have to be story changing." (in a non-spoiler forum ). We can look into "you guys wanted another boss fight and slammed Harvestino in our faces
even if we're pro-mage, when that whole entire battle could've been won
for the mages". I can even accept something a little vague like "It has to do with Hawke's Rise to Power -- or lack thereof" because it gives me a frame of reference for your argument, your preferences/bias, or even waht you might suggest we do to improve things in future products. \\

We like getting constructive feedback. With rants, buzzwords or vague, subjective generalities, there's not a whole lot we can do except ask questions until you give us something we can work with.

[Stanley Woo]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Art Spiegelman at least didn't decide to drastically change his art style between "My Father Bleeds History" and "And Here My Troubles Began", and it fit the story he told.

I've been told by these forums time and again that it is definitely NOT the changes between Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age II that people are objecting to, since that would lend credence to the "players can't handle Dragon Age II being different" (or "innovative") quote that gets thrown around.

BUT...

IF (capital I, capital F) Art Spiegelman decided he wanted to use a different art style halfway through his story, so what? It's his story, and he can tell it in whatever way he wants. It's not the comic reader's place to tell Mr. Spiegelman he can't do it. the comic reader always has a choice to make, and that it whether to purchase or not purchase the content. IF (again, capital letters) that's the way the story was sold, how is your choice as a consumer changed?

Comic books have different creative teams draw their characters all the time, for example.

It would be helpful to decide from the start how such things work in the world you create, and how you present them to the player. Realism indeed isn’t an indicator of maturity and sophistication, but the degree of realism is pretty important for the identity of a game/movie/etc. Until DA2 I never saw Dragon Age next to Mortal Kombat and God of War in terms of style, and I wouldn’t have classified a movie adaptation of anything Dragon Age as an action movie.

When is this "fromt he start" that we have to "decide... how such things work in the world [we] create"? Right from the get-go in the concepting stage? When finalizing the game? We can't change things from one game to the next? You know the combat in the Dragon Age Legends Facebook game is very different from the combat in Dragon Age II, right? Is that allowed? And Funimation is developing a Dragon Age anime, which will likely portray combat differently again.

And what if players don't like something we've done and we want to change things in future games, which is one of the reasons combat changed between Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age II? Are we obligated to continue presenting a feature in a certain way, or are we allowed to change it? And--here's the important question--who gets to make that choice?

Of course it's BioWare's decision how to deal with things like that, but in an RPG that puts as much emphasis on relationships and romance as DA2 it is not out of place to ask for a little more balance between ott violence maturity and well done intimacy maturity.

Not out of place at all, and it's a suggestion that we get for many of our games. It's only when you begin to imply that not having such a balance makes our game more "immature" or "kiddie" that I will take issue with the suggestion, as it starts to sound more like a demand then (ie. "put in more boobs or your game is for children/teens/mogwai/whatever").

As I've said, I'm totally cool with people wanting or suggesting more nudity, more sex, more gore/violence, or what have you, but once you start putting conditions or resort to emotional blackmail, that's when I can't agree with you.

Yeah, this again isn’t a matter of maturity, but of identity. I’d prefer Dragon Age not to look and feel like anime, no matter how mature it may be.
 
I would have been a lot happier if quests I decided to turn down didn’t appear as mandatory main story quests in my quest log. Or that if I’m given the choice to hand one of my companions over to the authorities said choice wouldn’t be nullified by plot induced stupidity. Etc.
 
Anyways, I guess I don’t agree with the “kiddie” label slapped on these problems DA2 had imo, but they are problems nonetheless.

That's a perfectly fine preference and suggestion.

[Fast Jimmy]

^
It still blows me away that I can randomly be on a thread and see posts from the Development Team of a series I enjoy playing.

As much backlash and critique as DA2 has gotten, it makes me feel incredibly better to see the people actually in charge of making game decision reading and replying to the things fans are saying, especially in more than PR bites. That gives me more hope for Bioware IPs than any game, good, bad or indifferent.

[Stanley Woo]

Pygmali0n wrote...

EDIT - ouch 3 rebuttals within 2 minutes - apologies Stan.

No worries, it all seems to be good discussion and critique, which is really all we're asking for.

[Fast Jimmy]

Stanley Woo wrote...

(ie. "put in more boobs or your game is for children/teens/mogwai/whatever").

This is the most epic sentence I've heard all day.

[Stanley Woo]

LeBurns wrote...

Morroian wrote...

LeBurns wrote...

Honestly I guess my definition of Kiddie is different than yours. But I am 47 so games like God of War are very childish to me.

So........ you can't actually refute anything he said.

Should I refute that my opinion is different than his?  His opinion isn't wrong so there is nothing to refute.  His opinion is different than mine however.  I strongly believe that DA2 was brought down several levels to be more 'kiddie' appealing.  I don't think that you can refute that I believe that can you?

Some things I'm sure we'd be able to come to an agreement on, given the time and effort, but there's nothing wrong with having different opinions on the way games are made. Things would be rather dull indeed if we all agreed on everything. it's our differences in experience, play style, preference, tolerance, and attitudes that have made the modern videogaming landscape such a rich and diverse one. Some folks hate certain features, so they get all enterprise-y and develop something more to their liking. the game hits the internets and BAM! like-minded people take to it and suddenly we have another overnight success story.

Look at games like Flow, Minecraft, Angry Birds, Left 4 Dead, Portal, GTA, Fallout, BG2, etc. All very different games, but each has its own audience, and there is some crossover between them. Even BioWare games have changed significantly in some ways over the last 10 years.

I don't blame people for not liking it when we do something really new and different. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but I do wish that people would be less unreasonably ranty about it all. We're not miracle workers and we're not perfect. We're a bunch of people who like games, and many of us are at our dream jobs, making products that millions of folks around the world like (or don't like, as you prefer). We love what we do, and we love that you love what we do (or don't, as you prefer), but that doesn't mean we won't have disagreements now and again. We just need to be able to talk them out. We need to listen to what you guys like or don't like, and you're goignt o have to accept that, sometimes, you won't like something we do. As long as we're generally trending towards the positive (and that will happen and become evident over the course of several projects, not the course of one game, as some Dragon Age II detractors would have you believe), I think we'll be fine.

[Fast Jimmy]

Stan,

Make sure all import flags from DAO, DA2 and DLC work correctly in DA3 and all will be forgiven.

[Morroian]

seraphymon wrote...

While there are shows out there that are meant for a more mature audience such as South park, ugly americans, etc. The first thing that comes to my mind with a cartoony style is that its meant for a younger audience, especially with enemies that look like skeletor or some sort of flunkies out of a power rangers season.

DAO looks like just as much of a cartoon as DA2, its just done in more generic medieval style. Its not realistic.

seraphymon wrote...

Think your missing the point. We know that theres tons of games out there that have unrealistic things humans do. Only in games, books, and movies can that be done. But aside from casting magic when you have a sort of realistic setting and having normal humans going from realistic battles and fighting like from DAO, to over the top jumping and leaping across entire battlefiends in 1 second, it goes into just too much. I can just imagine how lame the battle of ostagar would have been given that DA2 combat animations replaced the DAO ones. This coupled with the cartoony style just makes it seem even more kiddie to me.

To refer back to Stanley's point, why is it too kiddie and too much when you have wuxia and HK action films containing exactly the same thing in films for adults and films that adults enjoy in relatively reailstic settings? The Killer, Hardboiled, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Hero, House of Flying Daggers, all mature films in realistic settings (even if set in the past) with the most unrealistic action you will ever see. The last 2 are even directed by Zhang Yimou who has directed such serious masterpieces as Raise The Red Lantern and The Story of Qiu Ju.

[Morroian]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Art Spiegelman at least didn't decide to drastically change his art style between "My Father Bleeds History" and "And
Here My Troubles Began", and it fit the story he told.

Irrelevant, DAO and DA2 are 2 different games set in the same universe not 2 chapters of the 1 story.

TheRealJayDee wrote...

It would be helpful to decide from the start how such things work in the world you create, and how you present them to the player. Realism indeed isn’t an indicator of maturity and sophistication, but the degree of realism is pretty important for the identity of a game/movie/etc. Until DA2 I never saw Dragon Age next to Mortal Kombat and God of War in terms of style, and I wouldn’t have classified a movie adaptation of anything Dragon Age as an action movie.

So every separate game in a series  has to be presented the same way?

 

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Of course it's BioWare's decision how to deal with things like that, but in an RPG that puts as much emphasis on relationships and romance as DA2 it is not out of place to ask for a little more balance between ott violence maturity and well done intimacy maturity. 

I can agree with that but its not kiddie.
 

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Bodies exploding into unrealistic bits of jam - Kiddie

Japanese manga, some of which is anything but childish. Again, this is  matter of style and presentation, not maturity.

Yeah, this again isn’t a matter of maturity, but of identity. I’d prefer Dragon Age not to look and feel like anime, no matter how mature it may be.

Would someone please acknowledge that this is no longer an issue since it was patched out.

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Over stylized and over sized armor and weapons - Kiddie

Once again, a matter of visual presentation/art direction, not maturity.

See above.

The weapons are no bigger or overstylised than DAO weapons.

 

TheRealJayDee wrote...
 
Anyways, I guess I don’t agree with the “kiddie” label slapped on these problems DA2 had imo, but they are problems nonetheless.

Fair enough

Modifié par Morroian, 06 octobre 2011 - 02:53 .

[seraphymon]

Morroian wrote...
DAO looks like just as much of a cartoon as DA2, its just done in more generic medieval style. Its not realistic.

I happen to disagree. The art style and definition in everything did not look cartoony in the least. When the cinematics were done, especially for Ostagar i almost felt like i was watching a live action movie. And people didnt have the play doh wigs for hair as DA2 had. Its still supposed to be a medieval setting as thats the type of age they are in, and DA2 still does, but theres much more of a difference.

Morroian wrote...
To refer back to Stanley's point, why is it too kiddie and too much when you have wuxia and HK action films containing exactly the same thing in films for adults and films that adults enjoy in relatively reailstic settings? The Killer, Hardboiled, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Hero, House of Flying Daggers, all mature films in realistic settings (even if set in the past) with the most unrealistic action you will ever see. The last 2 are even directed by Zhang Yimou who has directed such serious masterpieces as Raise The Red Lantern and The Story of Qiu Ju.

To me its all about consistency and identity. As someone pointed out when you look at DAO you dont group them together. If the classes of rogues and mages were fully capable of teleporting across the battlefield, why would you need the tactics of having another large army to go around and flank the enemy?  DAO wasnt much different in slicing ones hand and a human bodys worth a blood spewed forth, which is unfortunate but alot of ther things amde it more realisitic. the way DA2 handles its mature stuff is sugarcoating it, like when a parent talks about the birds and the bees with their child. They water it down soo much, that even though they are talking about a mature thing, they present it in a way thats relatable and childish as to not offend or confuse. Instead of hacking a guys head off or stabbing through, enemies explode like water balloons when the situation arises. Really the only stab through was one of the Arishocks attacks that you actually are capable of surviving.
 
Plus your comparing apples to oranges  with different parts of the worlds with different fighting styles.

[Icinix]

For kids. No.


For people with the attention span of kids. Probably.

I don't mean that as an insult either, its just DA2 seems more for people who need to be constantly engaged with action rather than having a cup of coffee while listening to loads of dialogue or reading pages of the lore in game.

[TEWR]

Stanley Woo wrote...

And that's a well articulated, justified explanation of the generic "choices don't matter" complaint, one that clearly points to things we actually did in or for the game. It is certainly an easier critique to look into, and is far more universally accepted, than a comment like "lack of real choices that matter - kiddie."

We can work with "Hawke's story didn't have to be world changing, but it did have to be story changing." (in a non-spoiler forum ). We can look into "you guys wanted another boss fight and slammed Harvestino in our faces
even if we're pro-mage, when that whole entire battle could've been won for the mages". I can even accept something a little vague like "It has to do with Hawke's Rise to Power -- or lack thereof" because it gives me a frame of reference for your argument, your preferences/bias, or even waht you might suggest we do to improve things in future products.

We like getting constructive feedback. With rants, buzzwords or vague, subjective generalities, there's not a whole lot we can do except ask questions until you give us something we can work with.

Cool! This makes me a bit happy. Much of what I disliked about DAII's story and choices had to do with a few things:

1) How disjointed it all was. I felt as if the Mage Templar conflict and Hawke's Rise to Power should've been the primary focus of all 3 acts with each Act's individual plot reinforcing this and connecting to it in different ways. Like.... Act 2 should've had Meredith and the Qunari talking about mages a lot (as one suggestion, though there are many others bouncing around in my Dwarven mind).

2) A rise to power involves making connections and then using them when you need them. The game didn't allow for this. The potential connections were there, but they couldn't be used. Athenril/Meeran, the Wardens, Vanard, the Alienage Elves, etc. These would've come in handy during the climax of Act II and Act III.

3) Hawke can't actively choose which side he's really working for throughout the game. Well, he kinda can, but not in the way that I think it should've been. I think that he should've been able to work with the Mage Underground and eventually become its leader or work to crush the Mage Underground. Either way Templar authority would be severely undermined because Hawke proves that the Templars can't do their job like they're supposed to.

I think that's a bit more in depth without being too spoilerific.

Personally, I felt like both siblings should've survived to help strengthen the game's story with their deaths being completely up to the player, because I neither felt anything for Sibling A's death since I didn't know them and because I'm just that guy. But that's just me.

Granted I probably have radically different ideas from you guys at Bioware on where the series should go, but I think that's true for a lot of people on here.


EDIT: Another problem for me dealt with the very poor characterization of many people in the game.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 octobre 2011 - 03:31 .

[Morroian]

Icinix wrote...

For kids. No.


For people with the attention span of kids. Probably.

I don't mean that as an insult either, its just DA2 seems more for people who need to be constantly engaged with action rather than having a cup of coffee while listening to loads of dialogue or reading pages of the lore in game.

People can like both, I'm currently in the middle of playing Fallout New Vegas and loving it, at this stage its probably my personal GOTY (*gasp* yes even over DA2), its more sedately paced than DA2.

[Abispa]

Have you ever played with kids? They run circles around me in just about every game I've ever played. Instead of being "kiddied down," I think many game makers, and not just Bioware, are trying to make their games more accessible to ADULTS, ones who have lives outside of gaming and are just as likely to throw down the $60 to go to the movies as they are to buy a video game.

A perfect case is my girlfriend. I've been a gamer since the Atari 2600 was waiting for me under the Christmas tree, but she's only been playing since she saw me playing Jade Empire and was intrigued. She's a huge Mass Effect and Dragon Age fan now, particularly the second ones, and is one of those who appreciated the "streamlining" and speeding up the pace. Not to say that she wasn't unhappy with the recycled maps and the mage storyline not making any sense.

[Sutekh]

Icinix wrote...

For kids. No.

For people with the attention span of kids. Probably.

I don't mean that as an insult either, its just DA2 seems more for people who need to be constantly engaged with action rather than having a cup of coffee while listening to loads of dialogue or reading pages of the lore in game.

Err... you failed? I could go all offended right now, you know. Telling people who liked the game, whom you absolutely don't know, they have the attention-span of a kid is... how might I put this? Insulting. Especially since you don't know why, or which aspects of the game they like.

Besides, I don't have the feeling to be constantly engaged with action, I do listen to a good amount of dialogs and there is some lore there too... and coffee. Granted, less than in some RPGs, but more than in others.

[bEVEsthda]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I've been told by these forums time and again that it is definitely NOT the changes between Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age II that people are objecting to, since that would lend credence to the "players can't handle Dragon Age II being different" (or "innovative") quote that gets thrown around.

Selective reading then.  Or paying too much attention to a few critics (who only speak for themselves),.. or perhaps actually misreading what they really say?

It's not that DA2 has changed from DA:O, it's what DA2 has changed into.

That's what I've been mostly reading, in any context that can be linked to your comment. So it's definitely INDEED the changes between DA:O and DA2 that people are objecting to!


I don't like DA2's "new direction". I'm really happy about the subject matter in some recent threads, like this. Finally this forum is at least partly approaching the kernel of the matter (as I see it and as in the direction I've always tried to pull the discussion). It's not the flaws, it's the cynically calculated (for retarded 14y olds?) new style.

But try telling you that? Oh no , thread lockups and: "no rants please, constructive criticism, we only want to hear about re-used environments and falling waves over and over again, because we have no intention to change our new kewl style with kewl iconic looks that we think will gain us so many new customers".

Look, in terms of mechanics and features, TW2 is very far from what I really consider I want in a cRPG, but O'boy what a serious creation that game is. I like it. It has a pretense at realism. It has an atmosphere. It takes itself and its world seriously. I like it. And in games I like, I don't bother to find flaws, and flaws don't bother me.
In a game I don't like though, every little flaw burns and annoy me.

Do you think I'm mad in suspecting more people than me works that way?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 06 octobre 2011 - 10:34 .

[Persephone]

csfteeeer wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Issues that are part of DAII's storyline: Abuse, Rape, torture, insanity, a serial killer preying on children, another serial killer preying on women, mass murder, terrorism, fanaticism.....

And had the combat been about pixels fighting each other using flowers, I would never recommend DAII to anyone under 18 because of these things.

you say that as if just having those things makes DA2 adult.

it doesn't.

It sure does. Like DAII or not, it is not a game for kids.

[Persephone]

chitek23 wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

So let's cut that out, shall we?

the ridiculous, exploding enemies? the childish blood fountain?

yes, please. cut that out.

Done. All one has to use is Patch 1.03. The official patch available for all platforms. For months, no less.