429 réponses à ce sujet

[Imrahil_]

Versago wrote...

Versago wrote...

DA II is not a game for kids, and I don't even need to see the M rating to know that. It's a very mature and well developed product.

^ this times 100. Also, if DA II were a movie it would certainly without doubt be rated R. Scarface is a rated R movie yet DA II is much more mature than it.

You quoted yourself?  Did you forget to log-out & log-in as your sock puppet?

[Monica83]

By the way i played 16+ rated game with much more maturity element than dragon age 2

[Firky]

Edit: Thoroughly ninja'd. This was vaguelly in respone to Yrkoon.

Hee hee. Pole dancing mages. (Sorry, that tickled me. I actually really like the mage animations, but they are kinda full on - compared to my experience with RPGs - even aRPGs, really.)

Ratings and maturity is such a complex issue, though. Especially if you start comparing it to film or other media.

I can tell you that I have 3 boxed copies of Baldur's Gate 2 and they are all stamped with a different rating, PG, M and MA15+. I bought the first one at release and the others during various sales, years later. Hooray for Australia and the fact that we don't have a sensible ratings system.

I'm not sure what DAII was rated because I am away from my boxed copy. I think it was M. (Although a reliable friend just told me it was MA 15+.) Witcher 2 was MA15+. (The difference is that M is recommended 15+ and MA15+ is legally restricted to over 15s.) And, in Aus, they apparently took out "sex as a reward" as one quest outcome in order to get MA15+ for Witcher 2. We don't have 18+.

Of course, I was lucky enough to (legitimately) play the preview build of Witcher 2 and I saw a few things which were subsequently gone from the release copy. I don't know if these were stealthed out for Aussie players, or if international players experienced less than the preview. (Not lots, but slightly more of Geralt. Not all of Geralt, but slightly more.)

What's my point? I've lost it. Perhaps that ratings for games aren't proof of much, nor is it easy to compare across media, or internationally etc. And, they can be screwed with simply by removing a few lines of dialogue about providing sex as a reward, which I am sure I did multiple times in the original Witcher and that was rated MA15+.

Modifié par Firky, 08 octobre 2011 - 10:37 .

[bEVEsthda]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Versago wrote...

Versago wrote...

DA II is not a game for kids, and I don't even need to see the M rating to know that. It's a very mature and well developed product.

^ this times 100. Also, if DA II were a movie it would certainly without doubt be rated R. Scarface is a rated R movie yet DA II is much more mature than it.

You quoted yourself?  Did you forget to log-out & log-in as your sock puppet?

Lol, that's possible. I don't know if he did, but whatever Versago is no friend of Bioware. He's just found a perfectly safe way to troll the forums. Been obvious for a long time, I think. DA2 fans gets pretty much free licence from moderators. Particularly if they disrupt or disturp a thread which Bioware might find going in an uncomfortable direction.

But either way, in the end, Versago's not making Bioware any favor. And, lol, as Zanallen so unwittingly put it: "Stop it, you're making us look bad". (Lol, again)

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:52 .

[DragonRageGT]

Salaya wrote...

I don't think it's "for kids"; the problem is, though, that everything is so simple, direct and obvious that "childish" is a good way to define the game. 

Dragon Age: Origins was a comercial succes with both artistic and comercial care; instead, Dragon age 2 only cares about comercial-economic matters. The result? A product with no other value than the not-so-complicated fun.

This explains it beautifully.

[bEVEsthda]

Versago wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...

Versago wrote...

Versago wrote...

DA II is not a game for kids, and I don't even need to see the M rating to know that. It's a very mature and well developed product.

^ this times 100. Also, if DA II were a movie it would certainly without doubt be rated R. Scarface is a rated R movie yet DA II is much more mature than it.

You quoted yourself?  Did you forget to log-out & log-in as your sock puppet?

Lol, that's possible. I don't know if he did, but whatever Versago is no friend of Bioware. He's just found a perfectly safe way to troll the forums. Been obvious for a long time, I think. DA2 fans gets pretty much free licence from moderators. Particularly if they disrupt or disturp a thread which Bioware might find going in an uncomfortable direction.

But either way, in the end, Versago's not making Bioware any favor. And, lol, as Zanallen so unwittingly put it: "Stop it, you're making us look bad". (Lol, again)

I hope I don't get modded for this, but does this guy enjoy sticking his head up his ass and smelling his farts or what? I bring you the light of my infinite my wisdom and he has the gall to assume I don't like BioWare? Okaaaaay. And for the record, I don't make you look good because you make yourself look bad.

Absolutely wonderful!   I'm almost admiring you, but noo, not really. I'm just posting to correct you. I don't assume you don't like Bioware. I don't have to make any such assumptions to see that you're not making Bioware any favors.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Yrkoon]

He's good! Much better than that ManGirraffeDog guy we had here a few months back.

[bEVEsthda]

Yrkoon wrote...

He's good! Much better than that ManGirraffeDog guy we had here a few months back.

Oh, yeah.
Still, he didn't get that Zanallen part. There's flaws...


And I can predict the end of this: Rather than just banning Versago, this whole thread will be locked.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:07 .

[bEVEsthda]

Firky wrote...

Edit: Thoroughly ninja'd. This was vaguelly in respone to Yrkoon.

Hee hee. Pole dancing mages. (Sorry, that tickled me. I actually really like the mage animations, but they are kinda full on - compared to my experience with RPGs - even aRPGs, really.)

Ratings and maturity is such a complex issue, though. Especially if you start comparing it to film or other media.

I can tell you that I have 3 boxed copies of Baldur's Gate 2 and they are all stamped with a different rating, PG, M and MA15+. I bought the first one at release and the others during various sales, years later. Hooray for Australia and the fact that we don't have a sensible ratings system.

I'm not sure what DAII was rated because I am away from my boxed copy. I think it was M. (Although a reliable friend just told me it was MA 15+.) Witcher 2 was MA15+. (The difference is that M is recommended 15+ and MA15+ is legally restricted to over 15s.) And, in Aus, they apparently took out "sex as a reward" as one quest outcome in order to get MA15+ for Witcher 2. We don't have 18+.

Of course, I was lucky enough to (legitimately) play the preview build of Witcher 2 and I saw a few things which were subsequently gone from the release copy. I don't know if these were stealthed out for Aussie players, or if international players experienced less than the preview. (Not lots, but slightly more of Geralt. Not all of Geralt, but slightly more.)

What's my point? I've lost it. Perhaps that ratings for games aren't proof of much, nor is it easy to compare across media, or internationally etc. And, they can be screwed with simply by removing a few lines of dialogue about providing sex as a reward, which I am sure I did multiple times in the original Witcher and that was rated MA15+.

Well, to put it somewhat rudely, you don't have a point. This thread is not about rating games for ages or defining what is mature or not. We don't have to do that to see that DA2 is childish. And the subject matter is precisely that DA2 is childish.

[Firky]

bEVEsthda wrote...

This thread is not about rating games for ages or defining what is mature or not.

That was, vaguelly, my point. Ratings are problematic in defining content. (And lots of people are discussing ratings.)

bEVEsthda wrote...
We don't have to do that to see that DA2 is childish. And the subject matter is precisely that DA2 is childish.

Well, I'm 33 and I like DAII's story, combat, style, for the most part, with a couple of small exceptions. I didn't like the quest with the elf girl who was being abused by the "mage." I thought that was a bit simplistic. But other stuff, like the Saarebas, I thought was really evocative.

[bEVEsthda]

Firky wrote...

Well, I'm 33 and I like DAII's story, combat, style, for the most part, with a couple of small exceptions. I didn't like the quest with the elf girl who was being abused by the "mage." I thought that was a bit simplistic. But other stuff, like the Saarebas, I thought was really evocative.

True. And that might be a clue to part of the question this thread asks. DA2 might not be only meant for kids.
Which is exactly what I said long ago in this thread. I do suspect it's meant for kids also.

[Yrkoon]

One thing that needs to be restated, so that we don't confuse each other's arguments: The question we're debating is: Is DA2 a mature game. Not: is DA2 a good game. Huge difference. BG2 was one of the greatest games ever made,  And I'm sure I'll still love playing  it when I'm 50.   But  even aside from its teen rating, it wasn't mature at all.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:41 .

[Firky]

bEVEsthda wrote...

True. And that might be a clue to part of the question this thread asks. DA2 might not be only meant for kids.
Which is exactly what I said long ago in this thread. I do suspect it's meant for kids also.

More accesible to a whole bunch of people, with different tastes etc, I'd agree with. Like, meant for not just the old RPG crowd (of whom I am one.)

Kids? Well, I guess I'd still say that ratings (even though they're almost useless in Australia) do play a part, then. If it's rated M or MA15+, it's not meant for kids, by definition, right?

I have a friend who is part of a team releasing a game for young kids. They did heaps of research to make sure they got a G rating, instead of PG. They changed some stuff. Just like "sex as reward" was censored so that Witcher 2 wouldn't be banned.

@Yrkoon What was your BG2 rated? Teen? I'm amazed that my 3rd BG2 is MA15+ but it did ship with ToB, so maybe that changed it.

Edit: OK I just found the box and there is literally an MA15+ sticker right next to a Teen sticker. (Teen is US? rating for 13+ right?)

Is it any wonder we (in this thread) can't agree on what's mature when something (I think) is as relatively simple as Baldur's Gate 2 is "objectively" determined as OK for 13 year olds in one country but only purchased "under the supervision of an adult guardian" in another. (Except if you purchased it a few years earlier.)

Modifié par Firky, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:41 .

[bEVEsthda]

Firky wrote...
Kids? Well, I guess I'd still say that ratings (even though they're almost useless in Australia) do play a part, then. If it's rated M or MA15+, it's not meant for kids, by definition, right?

The cynical answer to that starts with the realization that, what ratings thinks is for kids, and what kids like, is not entirely the same thing.

[Yrkoon]

Firky wrote...


@Yrkoon What was your BG2 rated? Teen? I'm amazed that my 3rd BG2 is MA15+ but it did ship with ToB, so maybe that changed it.

US, Collectors edition.  Day 1 release.

Teen.  and the only themes cited under the rating was:  Animated blood; Use of Alcohol.

[Firky]

Use of alcohol in BG2? Mental blank.

(Also, I read that the toxicity effects in Witcher 2 were removed for ratings purposes. Just a rumour, no proof here.)

@bEVEsthda No disagreement on that here. (I was a high school teacher. I had endless arguments with kids about why I was not allowed to show M rated movies the kids brought in on the last day of term.) And, ratings have it wrong in lots of cases anyway.

Thanks for discussions, guys. I find this topic interesting.

Edit: Buying alcohol for those Umar kids?

Modifié par Firky, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:48 .

[Yrkoon]

Firky wrote...

Edit: Buying alcohol for those Umar kids?

There's that.
 
 Also, the  only way you can get a bartender to tell you rumors is to order beer/ale/spirits.

And if your constitution is too low, you can get drunk and  when you get drunk your thac0  goes up.

Aah... good times.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Firky]

Brilliant. Good times indeed.

(And how funny is it that that warranted a mention on the box. I'm racking my brains. Was that seriously it?)

PS. The only thing I would add is that Irenicus did scare the hell out of me and I was in my 20s, so I'm not totally saying BG2 is for kids, or anything.

Modifié par Firky, 08 octobre 2011 - 12:03 .

[Fast Jimmy]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The cynical answer to that starts with the realization that, what ratings thinks is for kids, and what kids like, is not entirely the same thing.

And I think this sums up the argument being made by the OP.

DA2 deals with a LOT of serious, dark topics. However, it contains MANY elements that young teenagers (and not KIDS, as many people are saying, but the 12-15 crowd)  would flock to. Flashy animations, Eastern RPG type character models and equipment, ultra-simplified game mechanics, super gore...

...I would throw in extreme bustiness, but that also applies to males 20 and up. We're kind of dumb that way.

And, to add to these elements that attract teens, there are areas that are toned down in ways that are incongruent to things like violence, which are amped up. Almost as if designers were anticipating that 12-15 y.o.s would be playing the game and have parents cry bloody murder at a sex scene that showed as much skin as a girl's bikini (Heaven forbid!)

Also... I would like to point out: These elements are appealing to teens. And more often than not, alienating to adults. This isn't just a matter of teenagers liking something mature that adults also love. These are elements that at an average (I'm talking in large generalizations here) teenager would go "Cool!" and your average adult would think "WTF?"

Again, as a full disclaimer... different styles appeal to different people. However, these styles (like giant swords or emo elves) have a demographic average of who these appeal to. Fenris was an interesting character, but it took so long for me to get past his art style because it made me think of new Final Fantasy, Twilight and half a dozen other things that are marketted and geared towards the tween and teen crowds. Using these elements, knowing their demographic connotations, means you are either appealing to a very small adult population who enjoys these styles, or means you are marketting towards said teens.

And that, in a nutshell, is the argument.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Firky wrote...

Edit: Thoroughly ninja'd. This was vaguelly in respone to Yrkoon.

Hee hee. Pole dancing mages. (Sorry, that tickled me. I actually really like the mage animations, but they are kinda full on - compared to my experience with RPGs - even aRPGs, really.)

Ratings and maturity is such a complex issue, though. Especially if you start comparing it to film or other media.

I can tell you that I have 3 boxed copies of Baldur's Gate 2 and they are all stamped with a different rating, PG, M and MA15+. I bought the first one at release and the others during various sales, years later. Hooray for Australia and the fact that we don't have a sensible ratings system.

I'm not sure what DAII was rated because I am away from my boxed copy. I think it was M. (Although a reliable friend just told me it was MA 15+.) Witcher 2 was MA15+. (The difference is that M is recommended 15+ and MA15+ is legally restricted to over 15s.) And, in Aus, they apparently took out "sex as a reward" as one quest outcome in order to get MA15+ for Witcher 2. We don't have 18+.

Of course, I was lucky enough to (legitimately) play the preview build of Witcher 2 and I saw a few things which were subsequently gone from the release copy. I don't know if these were stealthed out for Aussie players, or if international players experienced less than the preview. (Not lots, but slightly more of Geralt. Not all of Geralt, but slightly more.)

What's my point? I've lost it. Perhaps that ratings for games aren't proof of much, nor is it easy to compare across media, or internationally etc. And, they can be screwed with simply by removing a few lines of dialogue about providing sex as a reward, which I am sure I did multiple times in the original Witcher and that was rated MA15+.

The ESRB re-rated Oblivion from a T (for teenage) to an M (for a mature) once they discovered that PC users could create a nude mods characters.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I think my feelings on Dragon Age 2's maturity was best summed up by Fast Jimmy - specifically, the word incongruent really stuck with me, because that's exactly how I feel about it.

On one level, Dragon Age 2 tried to present a mature or perhaps "adult" front. With the various subplots, the drama and all the themes the game deals with, aren't your typical scenarios and themes dealt with in your average game.

The problem is that this is undermined by a lot of it's presentation, which can be described as over the top. The reason that this isn't considered "mature" or "adult" isn't because it's presented in a so called "anime" style, it's because it's presented in a manner that's incongruent with the tone Dragon Age 2 tries to portray in it's narrative(s). That is to say, "dark, gritty and somewhat grounded in real and relatable conflicts". Yet the combat animations (being the most obvious example), contradict that tone entirely.

A lot of the combat animations didn't really mesh well with the tone of the narrative, nor with the established laws of the world ("teleporting"/running really fast). It was there to be "cool, for the sake of being cool".

Now, this mindset is prevalent, that Dragon Age 2 have a "distinctive look", often times regardless of what the intended tone of the game is. This ranges from how the armor and equipment was designed - I remember a detailed post, perhaps from bEVEsthda, I don't remember, about the intracies of DA 2's armor design vs DA:O's which found that DA 2 had a sleeker, more stylised design but also more impractical, too. The DLC weapons from Legacy like the Key I think re-enforced this. - to how the levels and city was designed. It was oddly "clean" and sterile despite what the tone intended, even in Low and Darktown. The new racial designs could also come under this concept, though that's a harder sell to connect.

I guess what I'm saying is that while Dragon Age 2 certainly wasn't aimed at kids (it deals with very mature topics), the focus of it's art style (making it distinctive) enforced a "cool for the sake of cool" ethos even if it contradicts with the game's intended tone and by taking that approach, it implies a less than mature approach to the game's visual presentation.

edit: reading it over, I took a long time to say very little. Guess that's what happens when I make posts instead of sleeping like I should.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 08 octobre 2011 - 03:04 .

[Pygmali0n]

Nah, you did ok Mr Crusty. There were problems separate from maturity with the story, but you did ok.

[Pygmali0n]

EDIT: The post below the line is untouched, but let's just reframe comments made after 4 pints of strong ale. They were written with an exasperated and essentially good natured laugh of 'Oh no, he seemed to be open to opinion but he's just snapped back again'.  The 'you' with a problem is the collective you where English lacks a distinction, i.e. Bioware. And there has been a problem with DA2's reception and disappointing sales (carried aloft though they were by DA:O). My comments certainly weren't bullying (perhaps manipulation was intended, but it was through using the blunt object of sales). One thing not to be proud of is the 'servile' and I am sorry for that.

Elsewhere I recently called someone out for throwing insults, when that person then started playing the victim I then changed tack and was more conciliatory. Shame it wasn't appreciated. I may sometimes play rough in debate, but I don't bully.

______________________________________

Stanley Woo wrote...

Nice breakdown, nightscrawl. Thank you.

Just when we think you might be getting it Stan, some servile fan validates your problem and you reset to the DA2 mindset.

Stan! DON'T listen to the guys who like DA2! We pee'd off DA:O fans outnumber them. Remember you have a problem with DA2! There may be more DA2 fans on these forums, but that's because normal people stay away from things they don't like and don't have the patience to tell you where you went wrong.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 09 octobre 2011 - 04:12 .