429 réponses à ce sujet

[Pygmali0n]

Even if you are being serious, the evil forces of capitalism are on the side of DA:O (which was a far, far, far, far superior game to DA2).

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 08 octobre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Atakuma]

Pygmali0n wrote...

It's a shame then Versago that Bioware worship Mammon, not God. Not that I think our side will win, right now I think Bioware would rather give up the DA world and make kiddie games than revert to the original DA:O method or better.

[bickering deleted]

Modifié par casamar, 08 octobre 2011 - 05:29 .

[casamar]

Please refrain from making broad, generalized, and off topic speculations about the religion of BioWare staff

[Pygmali0n]

Atakuma wrote...

Pygmali0n wrote...

It's a shame then Versago that Bioware worship Mammon, not God. Not that I think our side will win, right now I think Bioware would rather give up the DA world and make kiddie games than revert to the original DA:O method or better.

As petulant as you've been so far, I would imagine Bioware kiddie games would be right up your alley.

Not petulant, drunk. See previous sober posts. 'No you are' and snide comments also qualify. 

classic mod warning about religion. Not the point. Not actual judgements about religion. Mammon = money. God = the belief that right is on our side. There's a lot of analogy going off in my posts in this thread, apologies for any confusion.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 08 octobre 2011 - 05:33 .

[Pasquale1234]

Some truly excellent points have been made outlining some of the reasons why DA2's visual presentation seems to have been aimed to appeal to a younger audience, despite some mature content.

There are also some aspects of Hawke's characterization and the story itself that I also felt were aimed toward a younger audience.  The 'rise to power' theme was realized with little more than combat expertise and some lip service to being the Champion.  Beyond a few assorted errands and a forced (meaningless) end-game decision, Hawke was never presented with any opportunities to exercise any real power or influence, assume responsibility for much of anything, or resolve anything in any way other than mass murder.  The only exception that I can think of ATM was Merrill's final quest - and that required Hawke to voice responsibility for Marethari and Merrill's choices or allow their clan to suffer the additional consequences of an ill-advised attack.  WTF?

I really enjoyed the way the mage - templar conflict was presented in DAO.  I found it intriguing and thought-provoking.  In DA2, I was beaten over the head with it repeatedly, not only by story events / quests but also companions contantly bleating opposing points of view - not to mention twin siblings that would end up on opposite sides of that conflict if left to their own devices.  It felt to me at times that the writers were intentionally pounding on those points to make sure an audience who might be too wrapped up in the constant combat to pay much attention to the storyline "gets it".  I'm still not quite sure where they plan to go with that, but was quite surprised that they chose to kick that sandcastle over in the second installment of the series.  It is something that I thought made for an interesting ongoing conflict if left in the background.

Speaking of quests - I couldn't help but notice that the vast majority of them could be completed within a few minutes, as if they were designed for shorter attention spans, and meted out a few at a time.  I guess some people did not like the length of the deep roads excursions in DAO, but I love them - it really does feel like you are traveling a long distance.  I also liked the fact that DAO provided a load of quests of varying lengths and allowed the player to choose the order in which to do them.  I suppose some of this could be due to the smaller geographic scope and limited locations rather than any intention to further simplify the journey through the story, however.

[bEVEsthda]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

The cynical answer to that starts with the realization that, what ratings thinks is for kids, and what kids like, is not entirely the same thing.

And I think this sums up the argument being made by the OP.

DA2 deals with a LOT of serious, dark topics. However, it contains MANY elements that young teenagers (and not KIDS, as many people are saying, but the 12-15 crowd)  would flock to. Flashy animations, Eastern RPG type character models and equipment, ultra-simplified game mechanics, super gore...

...I would throw in extreme bustiness, but that also applies to males 20 and up. We're kind of dumb that way.

And, to add to these elements that attract teens, there are areas that are toned down in ways that are incongruent to things like violence, which are amped up. Almost as if designers were anticipating that 12-15 y.o.s would be playing the game and have parents cry bloody murder at a sex scene that showed as much skin as a girl's bikini (Heaven forbid!)

Also... I would like to point out: These elements are appealing to teens. And more often than not, alienating to adults. This isn't just a matter of teenagers liking something mature that adults also love. These are elements that at an average (I'm talking in large generalizations here) teenager would go "Cool!" and your average adult would think "WTF?"

Again, as a full disclaimer... different styles appeal to different people. However, these styles (like giant swords or emo elves) have a demographic average of who these appeal to. Fenris was an interesting character, but it took so long for me to get past his art style because it made me think of new Final Fantasy, Twilight and half a dozen other things that are marketted and geared towards the tween and teen crowds. Using these elements, knowing their demographic connotations, means you are either appealing to a very small adult population who enjoys these styles, or means you are marketting towards said teens.

And that, in a nutshell, is the argument.

I totally agree. A clear, concise nutshell.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 08 octobre 2011 - 06:29 .

[Cobra's_back]

Nope not for Kids. Bombing temple, rape and other adult subject matter makes this only for adults.

[TheRealJayDee]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Seriously? You're going to fall back on manga? That stuff is totally childish. You know who loves manga? Early teen boys. Ok, maybe even late teen boys. Lotsa boobs, lotsa splatter, lotsa tentacled demon-spawn raping nubian big-eyed chicks with gigantic boobs. Plus the occasional awesome-super-mega-power-blast to destroy the demon-spawn, rescue the recently raped big-eyed chick, who then has UberSex!!!!!! Manga=mature? Wow. This all starting to make sense now. You think manga is mature. No wonder.

Imrahil, while I very much enjoyed the posts and arguments you made and almost completely agree with them, this is the one point I feel I have to correct you. Yes, there are lots of mangas and animes that fit your description, but that's not all there is by far. Like pretty much every medium mangas and animes come from a variety of genres, with just about every level of maturity you can imagine. I’m well beyond the late teen boy age group, and I love anime. But not every anime, just like I don’t like every book, comic, movie or game. There are lots of great anime out there: you might want to take a look at series like Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Record of Lodoss War, or my personal favourite Monster. If you can arrange yourself at all with the animation you’re in for an interesting ride with each of those series, as they all have good to great stories and characters that probably rival pretty much anything ever created by BioWare. And as for maturity, Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku doesn’t look like it based on the opening and art style, but it is imo at least as dark and mature as DA2 ever got, despite it’s protagonist being a 12 year old, and it tells a more interesting story.

Anyways, sorry for being off topic, just had to get this out.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 08 octobre 2011 - 08:16 .

[Derengard]

BrandonMotz wrote...


After going through my second playthrough I have to agree. From this quote it seems as if Bioware knows they kiddied it down. Cmon BW!! Plese make DA 3 more adult friendly! More tactical options, More blood... More gore... More sexually appealing options.

You do know that there is more overt sexuality and gore in DA2 and that is precisely what contributed to make it less mature (juvenile)? No, I guess you don't. Also the quote signals confidence in their own approach rather than apologetic irony. Not that players need to agree with that.

Modifié par Derengard, 08 octobre 2011 - 09:22 .

[Stanley Woo]

Pygmali0n wrote...
Just when we think you might be getting it Stan, some servile fan validates your problem and you reset to the DA2 mindset.

Wow, elitist as well as cynical. Okay, Pymali0n, let me break it down for you:

Stan! DON'T listen to the guys who like DA2!

We're going to listen to everyone, even you. We have listened to everyone, even you. I happen to disagree with your ideas, but at no time have I barred you from having opinions or stating them. But I don't have an obligation to agree with you or to take your ideas over anyone else's. Game development is not a collaboration between a whole bunch of individual players and developers, it can't be, since the fanbase is full of contradictory ideas, preferences and biases. the best we can do is take the totality of the feedback, figure out some trends, and see how it jibes with our own ideas for future projects.

We pee'd off DA:O fans outnumber them.

Game development is not a popularity contest in the way you think it is. We're not only listening to the most, the loudest, the tallest, or the most articulate. We're listening to everyone.

Remember you have a problem with DA2!

No, you have a problem with DA2. We released a game we are proud of, though we have acknowledged it wasn't perfect, by any means, and that there are some very specific things that need improvement in future projects. We have also worked hard, based on the community's feedback, to develop DLC products for DA2 that will hopefully address some of your concerns about DA2, or, at the very least, demonstrate that we are listening and are trying to address those concerns.

There may be more DA2 fans on these forums, but that's because normal people stay away from things they don't like and don't have the patience to tell you where you went wrong.

Like you're doing? All you're doing is insulting those who happen to like the game and dismissing their arguments in the hopes of persuading me to to the same. Well, I can't, anymore than I can simply dismiss your side's arguments because I personally disagree with them. Well, actually, this post I'm responding to I can safely dismiss because there's no substance to it, nothing constructive that someone could analyze and look into addressing. It's just complaining about other people and "nyah nyah, they're wrong, I'm right, pay attention to me."

Don't try to bully me into accepting or rejecting specific ideas or arguments, Pygmali0n. I am perfectly capable of reading and thinking for myself. Thank you.

[Aradace]

You know Stanley, as valid as your argument is, I can guarantee you that pygmali0n will find SOMETHING wrong with it. People like that, you cant convince them that they're going about things the wrong way because in their mind, and in that mystical magical fantasy world they live in, no one but them is right, and the others who happen to agree with them. Best not to feed this particular troll lol

[Stanley Woo]

Aradace wrote...

You know Stanley, as valid as your argument is, I can guarantee you that pygmali0n will find SOMETHING wrong with it. People like that, you cant convince them that they're going about things the wrong way because in their mind, and in that mystical magical fantasy world they live in, no one but them is right, and the others who happen to agree with them. Best not to feed this particular troll lol

Not a troll. He seems to genuinely believe what he's saying, and while he may be annoying to some people, I can't fault passion for our games and franchises. People feel very strongly about games that can affect them emotionally. And they tend to speak the loudest where they think they'll be heard, so it's not unusual to have people on both sides of an argument getting loud. We're here, we're actively listening, so why wouldn't they do all they could to be heard?

I merely disagree with his approach and his conclusions and, well, many of the reasons he's given me to persuade me to agree with him.

If I'd had the internet when I was a kid, heck, I might have been in his shoes.

[Aradace]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Aradace wrote...

You know Stanley, as valid as your argument is, I can guarantee you that pygmali0n will find SOMETHING wrong with it. People like that, you cant convince them that they're going about things the wrong way because in their mind, and in that mystical magical fantasy world they live in, no one but them is right, and the others who happen to agree with them. Best not to feed this particular troll lol

Not a troll. He seems to genuinely believe what he's saying, and while he may be annoying to some people, I can't fault passion for our games and franchises. People feel very strongly about games that can affect them emotionally. And they tend to speak the loudest where they think they'll be heard, so it's not unusual to have people on both sides of an argument getting loud. We're here, we're actively listening, so why wouldn't they do all they could to be heard?

I merely disagree with his approach and his conclusions and, well, many of the reasons he's given me to persuade me to agree with him.

If I'd had the internet when I was a kid, heck, I might have been in his shoes.

I think I can understand that.  Especially the "emotional" part.  I cant tell you how peeved I was (and even ranted as such on one of the threads lol) when I found out Leliana was still alive regardless of my actions.  Does it still anger me that she's alive? Yes, very much so.  But I refuse to go to the lengths that pygmali0n has gone to in order to express that particular sentiment.  Point is, you're right lol.  Opinions are all valid, for good or ill.  It's just the means by which we express them that need to be evaluated sometimes.

[DarkDragon777]

Stanley Woo wrote...

We pee'd off DA:O fans outnumber them.

Game development is not a popularity contest in the way you think it is. We're not only listening to the most, the loudest, the tallest, or the most articulate. We're listening to everyone.

During the first part of your statement, you say that you don't pay attention to the "elite", despite them being the majority of your fanbase, making them the populus.. Then you go on to say you listen to everyone, which is what you incorrectly defined as the elite even though they were really the populus. So therefore you're really saying you only listen to the populus which is really the elite?

Assuming at first that the elite are the DAO fans, but then duing the second part of my statement they would be considered the populus and the non-DAO fans the elite.
 


I highly doubt there were  many people that were eagerly awaiting DA 2 that weren't  Origins fans that even could give you valuable advice on how to produce the game, since they  didn't play it in the first place or hated it.

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 08 octobre 2011 - 10:17 .

[Yrkoon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

We're going to listen to everyone, even you.

But you'll completely ignore Imrahil_, bEVEsthda, TheRealJayDee, and others who came in on page 12/13 and finally addressed all your surprizingly easy-to-counter points.

Derengard wrote...


You do know that there is more overt sexuality and gore in DA2 and that is precisely what contributed to make it less mature (juvenile)?

Agreed. It's all so blatantly "in your face" and so non-suble that one can't help but think that the entire point was to litter the game with locker room jokes  (gym class... Highschool) and  action-flick violence dramatics (lets blow sh*t up!  lolawesome!).  There's nothing MATURE about that.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:38 .

[bEVEsthda]

Yrkoon wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

We're going to listen to everyone, even you.

But you'll completely ignore Imrahil_, bEVEsthda, TheRealJayDee, and others who came in on page 12/13 and finally addressed all your surprizingly easy-to-counter points.

Actually, I came in at page 10, after some hiatus from these forums, from being totally disgusted by the earlier 'iconic looks' discussion. And I suppose I'll soon leave again.

Actually, apart from that Stan openly "disagreed with pygmali0n's ideas", and the ominous things which that might mean, I think his stance is entirely rational and reasonable. He simply describes how it must be, with a feedback from forums.

But I do find it surprising that Stan seems such a diehard fan of DA2's new cynically young-teen-targeting style. Same with the related iconic looks - a feature that only takes away from the game, adds nothing, only satisfies some advertisers irrational and compulsary thought patterns.
The huge irony of it all is that it's all so completely counterproductive to the stated goals: Just take a look around, at other fantasy games, at EA's own catalogue, and you'll see how horribly GENERIC and CLICHÈ DA2's new style is (aside from how despicable it is, which is another issue). And how unique DA:Origin's style was. Astonishing how some foolish mumblings about LotR and "generic fantasy" can have grown people completely blind to the simple fact that there were no other games looking like DA:O, and scare them straight into the arms of comfortable modern clichés, for being scared of seeming generic ( DA2 now has the same looks as all other, complete with the mandatory horns. There's hardly a single fantasy game, planned or existing, that doesn't feature lots of horned races and creatures, so how the hell was putting horns on the qunari supposed to make them more unique?)

It's all so dismayingly stupid.   I think I'm outa here again...

[Zanallen]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Actually, I came in at page 10, after some hiatus from these forums, from being totally disgusted by the earlier 'iconic looks' discussion. And I suppose I'll soon leave again.

Actually, apart from that Stan openly "disagreed with pygmali0n's ideas", and the ominous things which that might mean, I think his stance is entirely rational and reasonable. He simply describes how it must be, with a feedback from forums.

But I do find it surprising that Stan seems such a diehard fan of DA2's new cynically young-teen-targeting style. Same with the related iconic looks - a feature that only takes away from the game, adds nothing, only satisfies some advertisers irrational and compulsary thought patterns.
The huge irony of it all is that it's all so completely counterproductive to the stated goals: Just take a look around, at other fantasy games, at EA's own catalogue, and you'll see how horribly GENERIC and CLICHÈ DA2's new style is (aside from how despicable it is, which is another issue). And how unique DA:Origin's style was. Astonishing how some foolish mumblings about LotR and "generic fantasy" can have grown people completely blind to the simple fact that there were no other games looking like DA:O, and scare them straight into the arms of comfortable modern clichés, for being scared of seeming generic ( DA2 now has the same looks as all other, complete with the mandatory horns. There's hardly a single fantasy game, planned or existing, that doesn't feature lots of horned races and creatures, so how the hell was putting horns on the qunari supposed to make them more unique?)

It's all so dismayingly stupid.   I think I'm outa here again...

Just because you don't understand or refuse to acknowledge the benefits of unique companion looks doesn't mean there aren't any. There was nothing unique nor original about Origins' style.

[Yrkoon]

Benefits of Iconic companion looks, as stated by Chris Priestly himself: It facilitates Cosplay at promotional events like Game-cons.

Yeah, that matters. Because we're all too dumb to remember Morrigan when she wears the Reaper's Vestments, instead of her swamp gear. And we're all little teenage groupies who value real life costume contests over decent, choice-based gameplay in the video game we bought..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:08 .

[thats1evildude]

Yrkoon wrote...

Benefits of Iconic companion looks, as stated by Chris Priestly himself: It facilitates Cosplay at promotional events like Game-cons.

Yeah, that matters. Because we're all too dumb to remember Morrigan when she wears the Reaper's Vestments, instead of her swamp gear.

Yeah, I've heard Chris Priestly's comments on the matter and you mis-quoting him. But whatever, we'll address your point, misguided as it is.

The thing is, ANY mage can wear the Reaper's vestments. That does not facilitate cosplay. If my sister were to dress up in a robe styled after the Reaper's Vestments with the intention of "being Morrigan," she would have to explain who she was even to other fans of the game.

But if she puts out an outfit styled after Morrigan's "swamp witch" look, then I instantly know who she's cosplaying as.

Now take Sten. What constitutes Sten's look? White hair drawn back into a ponytail. How does that differentiate him from other characters who have white hair?

Yrkoon wrote...

And we're all little teenagers who value real life costume contests over decent, choice-based gameplay in the video game we bought..

It's also a little disengenous to attribute the use iconic looks solely to the benefit of cosplayers. From a fan art perspective, a character possessing an iconic look is also useful for fan art and mods.

But then there are the gameplay benefits you choose to ignore, like ease of use. You don't have to screw around picking armor for your companions, and you don't have to worry about mismatching their outfits.

And you can't mistake one character for another while in battle, a problem I've had with my rogues in Dragon Age Origins. I sometimes mixed up Zevran with my dual-wielding rogue, as they had to wear identical armor sets due to the lack of variety in armor within Origins.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:30 .

[Yrkoon]

  One last post before I put your tired meanderings behind me:

Stanley Woo wrote...
If I'd had the internet when I was a kid, heck, I might have been in his shoes.

F**king Troll.  Basically calling someone you disagree with a kid.  Last time *I* did that, I got a 24 hour ban.  Where's Epler when we need him?

<gag>

thats1evildude wrote...

But ANY mage can wear the Reaper's vestments.

In DA:O any mage can wear any Armor, including the blood dragon plate. You're not really making a point here... except maybe arguing against player freedom.

thats1evildude wrote...
It has other benefits that you choose to ignore, like ease of use.

Because it's  just SO complicated to outfit your companions. Really. Requires a master's degree in  physics. Right? No sale. I'm not the lowest common denominator, and I dislike forced limitations in order to accommodate the lazy/uninelligent.

We're never going to agree on this issue, because 100 times out of 100, I'll choose freedom and choice over forced simplicity.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Reaverwind]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I really enjoyed the way the mage - templar conflict was presented in DAO.  I found it intriguing and thought-provoking.  In DA2, I was beaten over the head with it repeatedly, not only by story events / quests but also companions contantly bleating opposing points of view - not to mention twin siblings that would end up on opposite sides of that conflict if left to their own devices.  It felt to me at times that the writers were intentionally pounding on those points to make sure an audience who might be too wrapped up in the constant combat to pay much attention to the storyline "gets it".  I'm still not quite sure where they plan to go with that, but was quite surprised that they chose to kick that sandcastle over in the second installment of the series.  It is something that I thought made for an interesting ongoing conflict if left in the background.

Not only were the writers pounding on the points, but both sides were presented in the shallowest way possible, ie, psychos vs sociapaths. To make matters worse, the writers commit the unforgivable sin of forcing Hawke to spout propaganda for one side or the other - case in point being the dialogue options during the absurd kidnapping quest.

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

Benefits of Iconic companion looks, as stated by Chris Priestly himself: It facilitates Cosplay at promotional events like Game-cons.

Yeah, that matters. Because we're all too dumb to remember Morrigan when she wears the Reaper's Vestments, instead of her swamp gear. And we're all little teenage groupies who value real life costume contests over decent, choice-based gameplay in the video game we bought..

And various other benefits that have been explained time and again by people far more knowledgeable on the issue that either you or I. As such, I'm not going to bother getting into with you. If you refuse to acknowledge the benefits, fine. No amount of discussion is going to get you to change your mind nor do I care if you do change it.

[thats1evildude]

Yrkoon wrote...

In DA:O any mage can wear any Armor, including the blood dragon plate. You're not really making a point here... except maybe arguing against player freedom.

You're completely missing my point. I don't know how else to word this so you'll understand, but I'll give it another shot.

You grasp that cosplay entails dressing like a fictional character, yes? That means duplicating their look. For me to cosplay as, say, Inuyasha, I need to put on a white wig, dog ears and a specific red robe.

You said, "As if it's so hard for us to remember Morrigan wearing the Reaper's Vestments." But see, there's nothing about the Reaper's Vestments that is unique to Morrigan. If my sister wants to dress up as Morrigan and wears a robe that looks like the Reaper's Vestments, then she would constantly have to explain who she was even to fans of the game like myself.

For my sister to be recognized as Morrigan, she needs to wear the Swamp Witch outfit. That's why iconic looks benefit cosplay and fan work in general.

Yrkoon wrote...

Because it's  just SO complicated to outfit your companions.

Honestly, it can be a pain in the ass in Origins if you're trying hard not to have your party dolled up like rainbow-coloured pimp.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:43 .