429 réponses à ce sujet

[Anomaly-]

naledgeborn wrote...

I don't think so. I have a 12 year old cousin who's pretty much a gamer (better stay that way or I'll smack the **** out of him if he develops negative interests).

Anyway he wanted to sleep over the weekend an saw me playing DA2, DX:HR, and what have you. I let him start a new game in DA2. He was enthralled but he couldn't wrap his melon around the fact that he had to assign attribute points after I spent 5 mintues explaining it to him. Granted he's 12 but the kid is sharp for his age.

This revelation has lead me to believe that DA2 isn't as "streamlined" as the forum goers like to think. Perhaps poorly executed in the design department due to time restraints but that's not saying this game "is for kids".

Maybe it's just because I grew up playing RPGs, but I have fond memories of assigning attribute/skill points and utilizing several complex game mechanics to customize my character and make stretegic decisions before I was 10. That being said, there really isn't even any thought required for distributing attribute points in DA2, as it all amounts to the same two attributes depending on your class in a 75/25 spread.

Aside from the semantics of certain ratings criteria and what goes into an M rated game, I have to agree that DA2 isn't really a game for adults. At least, I didn't feel it treated me like one. Mainly due to the oversimplification of the gameplay and dialogue systems, and the cheesy, juvenile (especially involving Isabella) party banter that might be mildly amusing to a few teenagers.

I'm finding true adult experiences harder to come across in games these days. It makes me genuinely sad, and I can only hope the trend turns around at some point. TW2 was an improvement in several areas, but it still lacked in others. I think a great balance would be somewhere between TW2 and Origins.

[casadechrisso]

You can easily take out a certain aspect of the game and say it's adult, but that still makes the game not mature as a whole. Blood and gore? Yes, there's enough of it and it's so over the top one can't take it serious anymore (same for DA:O actually). Just take Merill's Long Way quest where she opens the magic barrier. The poor elf makes a small cut and spills out more blood than fits into her in a large fountain all over the place. That might get you a "Blood" from ESBR, and it's still nothing but Monty Python.

The same goes for sex (and I'm not asking for nudity in the game at all), just because Isabella makes a cheeky remark about the lower body regions doesn't make it more mature. Her own body contradicts any mature
impression her words might give anyway (but it's just me maybe). You get a "Language" from the ESBR and it's still on a teenager level.

And all those "adult, dark" topics in the story. This really depends on the presentation, and if the presentation is not mature, but simple and naive, then it's not really the same. Nothing in DA2 came close to a mature level simply because non of the oh-so-dramatic situations made me care. DA:O did better, especially in some Origin stories I really felt with the characters. Shianni being "mistreated" was emotional, as was the loss of the parents. But in DA2 it's more like "info: NPC has been raped to add shock value, please react emotional now" and you just shrug
your shoulders and don't care because it means nothing to you unless the word alone makes you faint. That's where I think the story fails to be mature, if it doesn't make you care it's only 18+ because of the topic, but not because of your reception. ESBR says "mature themes" because it's written in, sure, but that's all.

Show me a 14 year old who doesn't use the word (here the filter prevents me to write an originally harmless word describing a cat) for something else than an animal, and yet it's not mature at all.

Let's be realistic, just because the ESBR marks something as mature it doesn't mean it's not a teenager topic in reality. They probably talk about sex, drugs and shooting up stuff ten times more than a mid-twen would. And as a
teenager it was awesome to play all those 18-rated violent or sex-drivengames (well, being not the youngest anymore that would be something like Leisure Suit Larry etc.), but please, those games were hardly adult
games. As an adult my interests changed quickly to something more realistic and story driven, speak: mature. And not only The Witcher did this much better, there are many examples from all over the place that make DA2 feel like a teen game. Someone above said DA2 lacked the subtility and love for detail Origins had, and I think that plays a
major role. And well, yeah, artwork and kiddy combat animations play such a major role in the "teen game" impression the story would've had to be much, much better to keep the game feeling mature.

(edit: sorry for funny edits, the boards don't play well with me atm)

Modifié par casadechrisso, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:04 .

[casadechrisso]

misclicked here.

Modifié par casadechrisso, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Despite the game not meeting the aesthetic/diehard RPG/amazingly high intellectual standards that some people have, it doesn't mean that the game was kiddied down - unless you consider terrorism, revolution & politics to be "kiddied down" subject matters. The devs could have handled a number of things better, but seriously? *sigh*

[casadechrisso]

I don't have high intellectual standards, I enjoyed Fallout NV.

I enjoyed Origins much more, yes. If that means a too high intellectual standard, so be it (and it proves my points).
And seriously, topics like terrorism, revolution and politics make a game mature, by being there? I'll play Modern Warfare from now on to get my kicks.

[Anomaly-]

casadechrisso wrote...

I don't have high intellectual standards, I enjoyed Fallout NV.

I enjoyed Origins much more, yes. If that means a too high intellectual standard, so be it (and it proves my points).
And seriously, topics like terrorism, revolution and politics make a game mature, by being there? I'll play Modern Warfare from now on to get my kicks.

Pretty much this, and the previous comment about the subtlety in Origins not present in DA2. It's not so much the content and themes included themselves, but the way they're presented. DA2 just feels to me like it tries so hard to evoke a specific reaction from you that it may as well be a Michael Moore movie. Unfortunately, it does this so bluntly, and with so little care, subtlety, and attention to detail that I just had no reaction at all to the would-be tragedies in the game, aside from the constant frustration with Hawke being too useless to prevent any of it.

It's the sum of the ingredients and the way they're presented to you that matters much more than the ingredients by themselves on paper when creating an 'adult experience', imo.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Despite the game not meeting the
aesthetic/diehard RPG/amazingly high intellectual standards that some
people have, it doesn't mean that the game was kiddied down - unless you
consider terrorism, revolution & politics to be "kiddied down"
subject matters. The devs could have handled a number of things better,
but seriously? *sigh*

<rant>

It's not that I have any ridiculously high intellectual standards. Like the poster before me, I enjoy games with little or no choices or dialogue at all. The problem I have is when a game tries to be something it isn't, and tries to force you to accept it that way despite it's flaws.

I'll use TW2 as an example. As I said previously, it lacked maturity in several areas. Take, for example, the ridiculous, dumb, big fat guy clones that you would see in various taverns and other places. They were incredibly one-dimensional characters with no depth at all. Yet, I found this much easier to forgive in TW2 because it didn't pretend they were anything more than that. The game seemed to do it with tongue in cheek and not take itself too seriously.

DA2 on the other hand, made so many obvious attempts to force you to feel or think something specific in regards to a specific character or event. In that way, it did want you to take it seriously. Unfortunately, it was flawed in many ways with regards to meaningful choices and the aforementioned lack of subtlety and attention to detail that it fell short of that goal. Worse yet, it was littered with so much juvenile party banter, shallow companion relationships and oversimplified dialogue, that it seemed to not want you to take it seriously. The end result was a game that I perceived to be experiencing an identity crisis.

If you want to evoke emotional reactions from players and have them think about important choices in regards to character development and companion relationships, then go the total distance and do everything you can to help them experience this. Don't just half ass it and expect to fill the gaps with flashy cutscenes or having Hawke react in a way the character wouldn't. And definitely don't contradict all of this by throwing in a bunch of lame dialogue and spitting on any choices the player makes in regards to character development, story and companion relationships, making it exceedingly difficult to take the game as seriously as you want us to.

Of course, that's all just my opinion.

</rant>

Modifié par Anomaly-, 29 septembre 2011 - 01:25 .

[Morroian]

BrandonMotz wrote...

I was reading a post earlier in the week from someone who was miffed because DA2 was "Kiddied down" from Dragon Age 1 in its difficulty.

This has probably been addressed but anyway hard and nightmare modes are harder in DA2 than they were in DAO. So no the difficulty hasn't been downgraded.

As for the general point one thing I find ironic is the lack of maturity displayed by a lot of the people that dislike the game (not all or perhaps even most, but a lot). They seemingly want a game which I would guess they would class as complex and adult yet they behave like spoiled brats when they dislike the game.

And yes I acknowledge that there are people who like the game who also behave like spoiled brats but at least they aren't stating they want one thing and then behaving like they should be playing games with less maturity.

[Morroian]

casadechrisso wrote...

And all those "adult, dark" topics in the story. This really depends on the presentation, and if the presentation is not mature, but simple and naive, then it's not really the same. Nothing in DA2 came close to a mature level simply because non of the oh-so-dramatic situations made me care. 

Maturity in plot or theme does not depend on making you care. 

[Absafraginlootly]

Yes, because inorder for anything to be enjoyed by an adult audience it absolutely MUST contain barrels of blood gore and sex, because that sort of thing is so very mature.

And scenes where your characters mothers head has been sown on various body parts from other corpses by a serial killer and a crazed mage kills a bunch of people to use their bodies to make a big flesh golemesque thing are clearly aimed towards children.

/sarcasm

I love dragon age games to bits but I wouldn't let an 8 year old play them. Whilst I did not like DA2 quite as much as I liked DA:O, none of the reasons for that involve making the game more "child friendly".

[csfteeeer]

casadechrisso wrote...

You can easily take out a certain aspect of the game and say it's adult, but that still makes the game not mature as a whole. Blood and gore? Yes, there's enough of it and it's so over the top one can't take it serious anymore (same for DA:O actually). Just take Merill's Long Way quest where she opens the magic barrier. The poor elf makes a small cut and spills out more blood than fits into her in a large fountain all over the place. That might get you a "Blood" from ESBR, and it's still nothing but Monty Python.

The same goes for sex (and I'm not asking for nudity in the game at all), just because Isabella makes a cheeky remark about the lower body regions doesn't make it more mature. Her own body contradicts any mature
impression her words might give anyway (but it's just me maybe). You get a "Language" from the ESBR and it's still on a teenager level.

And all those "adult, dark" topics in the story. This really depends on the presentation, and if the presentation is not mature, but simple and naive, then it's not really the same. Nothing in DA2 came close to a mature level simply because non of the oh-so-dramatic situations made me care. DA:O did better, especially in some Origin stories I really felt with the characters. Shianni being "mistreated" was emotional, as was the loss of the parents. But in DA2 it's more like "info: NPC has been raped to add shock value, please react emotional now" and you just shrug
your shoulders and don't care because it means nothing to you unless the word alone makes you faint. That's where I think the story fails to be mature, if it doesn't make you care it's only 18+ because of the topic, but not because of your reception. ESBR says "mature themes" because it's written in, sure, but that's all.

Show me a 14 year old who doesn't use the word (here the filter prevents me to write an originally harmless word describing a cat) for something else than an animal, and yet it's not mature at all.

Let's be realistic, just because the ESBR marks something as mature it doesn't mean it's not a teenager topic in reality. They probably talk about sex, drugs and shooting up stuff ten times more than a mid-twen would. And as a
teenager it was awesome to play all those 18-rated violent or sex-drivengames (well, being not the youngest anymore that would be something like Leisure Suit Larry etc.), but please, those games were hardly adult
games. As an adult my interests changed quickly to something more realistic and story driven, speak: mature. And not only The Witcher did this much better, there are many examples from all over the place that make DA2 feel like a teen game. Someone above said DA2 lacked the subtility and love for detail Origins had, and I think that plays a
major role. And well, yeah, artwork and kiddy combat animations play such a major role in the "teen game" impression the story would've had to be much, much better to keep the game feeling mature.

(edit: sorry for funny edits, the boards don't play well with me atm)

Holy ****, i got ninja'd.

This is exactly what i was going to say.

Blood by itself doesn't make something mature(how is This Mature?), and neither does Lenguage(again, is This Mature?) or Sex(Porn isn't mature is it?), it's the way you use them and how much you use them.

oh and OP, no no no, not for kids..... for MANCHILDS, which is different.

Modifié par csfteeeer, 29 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

I wouldn't say it was meant for kids, although the writing at times was tedious and juvenile. It felt like it was written by kids at times; not at all up to the standard Bioware has shown in the past.

My wife summed it up the other day; her first major PC game beyond the Sims games, and her first RPG was DAO. She loved it. We played through it together.

Her reaction to DA2? 'Why did they dumb it down so much?' Maybe it wasn't geared so much for kids; maybe Bioware thinks a large portion of their preferred customer base is too stupid to play games as they've been writing them for over a decade.

[Complistic]

Absafraginlootly wrote...

Yes, because inorder for anything to be enjoyed by an adult audience it absolutely MUST contain barrels of blood gore and sex, because that sort of thing is so very mature.

Actually DA2 has all of that yet I still feel hey were aiming for a "tween" audience. It's not as simple as the content of the game it's how the content is presented.

[Fast Jimmy]

Anomaly- wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I don't think so. I have a 12 year old cousin who's pretty much a gamer (better stay that way or I'll smack the **** out of him if he develops negative interests).

Anyway he wanted to sleep over the weekend an saw me playing DA2, DX:HR, and what have you. I let him start a new game in DA2. He was enthralled but he couldn't wrap his melon around the fact that he had to assign attribute points after I spent 5 mintues explaining it to him. Granted he's 12 but the kid is sharp for his age.

This revelation has lead me to believe that DA2 isn't as "streamlined" as the forum goers like to think. Perhaps poorly executed in the design department due to time restraints but that's not saying this game "is for kids".

Maybe it's just because I grew up playing RPGs, but I have fond memories of assigning attribute/skill points and utilizing several complex game mechanics to customize my character and make stretegic decisions before I was 10. That being said, there really isn't even any thought required for distributing attribute points in DA2, as it all amounts to the same two attributes depending on your class in a 75/25 spread.

Aside from the semantics of certain ratings criteria and what goes into an M rated game, I have to agree that DA2 isn't really a game for adults. At least, I didn't feel it treated me like one. Mainly due to the oversimplification of the gameplay and dialogue systems, and the cheesy, juvenile (especially involving Isabella) party banter that might be mildly amusing to a few teenagers.

I'm finding true adult experiences harder to come across in games these days. It makes me genuinely sad, and I can only hope the trend turns around at some point. TW2 was an improvement in several areas, but it still lacked in others. I think a great balance would be somewhere between TW2 and Origins.

Not to get off topic, but I agree with this as well. I was playing old school dungeon crawlers like Ultima that assigned as many stat points options as DA2 had back when I was 7. And I'm pretty much considered a half-wit by some.

However, "mature" content is a truly subjective term. In The Witcher, half of the point of many of the quests is to sleep with every lady who will spread their legs. While it does tie in with the story, its basically built in fan-service. DA2 needs combat to move a lot of the story forward, but while deaths done in cut scenes are usually done in a serious manner, fighting while doing ninja jumps, whipping around a sword twice the length of your characters body like it was a toothpick and blood flying everywhere in combat, even with enemies who have no blood, isn't mature, but rather just gore for gore's sake.

BW is able to take the high ground on explicit sexual and language content, but not on violence. Either one is extreme to the point of having no impact.

In DAO, the choice of how you address things with Conner (when the loop-hole Circle option is not used) leads to either a intense sacrifice by Isolde or the heart breaking slaying of a child. Not only is the hard choice there, but the decision is felt later on in the game with follow up dialogue from Eamon, Alistair and others.

To be a truly "mature" game, a game should offer topics that make you sit back and question what is the best thing to do, for either yourself or the characters involved, and also having to deal with the consequences of those actions, even the unexpected consequences.

In that sense, DA2 is much more like a "kiddie" game, to crudely quote others, than DAO. All the choice, but none of the mature impact.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 29 septembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Bachmors]

The exaggerated combat and the exploding bodies really makes Dragon Age 2 appear less mature than Dragon Age:Origins or e.g.: The Witcher. More violence doesn't make a game more mature. Realism does (read: realism inside the borders of the established lore). One aspect of this is also enemy mages who can teleport btw ;-)

Dragon Age:Origins just seemed so much more gritty and realistic :-(

Modifié par Bachmors, 29 septembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[Yuqi]

The AU rating is MA15+:

MA15+ (Mature Accompanied for those under 15) - Contains material that is considered unsuitable for exhibition by persons under the age of 15. Persons under said age may only legally purchase or exhibit MA15+ rated content under the supervision of an adult guardian. This is a legally restricted category.

And adult may go in and buy it for them,then supervise for a little while,then not bother. Origins received the same rating, so the rating depends on country.What is deemed appropriate for children, varies. I would have put a R18 on origins personally. So if I was going on the Au rating alone,I would say it makes sense for them to dumb it down.Lets face it being 15 is hardly a mature age for DA2 or DAO content.

What content they put in has to consider the factor of various ratings,in various countries.

I say make it R18..

[Anomaly-]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
To be a truly "mature" game, a game should offer topics that make you sit back and question what is the best thing to do, for either yourself or the characters involved, and also having to deal with the consequences of those actions, even the unexpected consequences.

Pretty much what I'm getting at.

Here's a snippet from the review I wrote back when the game came out:

"One of my biggest caveats about the dialogue wheel is that what you're saying, and for the most part, the reaction to what you're saying is already known to you before you say it. I shouldn't be told which option is good, and which bad, and I certainly shouldn't be told which option will result in a fight. These things should not be known to you before you even speak them. This isn't how real dialogue works. It takes way too much of the thought away from choosing your words. It's kind of like taking a personality test where the results of the possible answers are given to you before you answer them. Your personality, and others' perceptions of it should be the result of your actions, not the motivation for them."

I really enjoyed making choices in Origins based on what I wanted to say, then dealing with the consequences. Some would approve, some would disapprove, but that's the way it goes. I shouldn't have icons telling me how someone is going to react to what I'm saying.

Granted, there were a couple of choices with a little more gray area in DA2. Unfortunately, your choice was meaningless and made no difference in the end, anyway. In regards to story, that is.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 29 septembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[addiction21]

csfteeeer wrote...

oh and OP, no no no, not for kids..... for MANCHILDS, which is different.

Typical

[Drasanil]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Despite the game not meeting the aesthetic/diehard RPG/amazingly high intellectual standards that some people have, it doesn't mean that the game was kiddied down - unless you consider terrorism, revolution & politics to be "kiddied down" subject matters.

Uhm... you do realise you haven't actually made a point here right? Just because you have mature subject matter doesn't  mean it can't be approached in a kiddied down way, just ask every parent ever who had to explain to their six-year old where babies come from. Which incedently isn't too far from the approach DA2 takes to the subjects you mentioned above; bad things happen because plot device or sometimes just because ....caughOrsinocaugh...

[thats1evildude]

Drasanil wrote...

Uhm... you do realise you haven't actually made a point here right? Just because you have mature subject matter doesn't  mean it can't be approached in a kiddied down way, just ask every parent ever who had to explain to their six-year old where babies come from. Which incedently isn't too far from the approach DA2 takes to the subjects you mentioned above; bad things happen because plot device or sometimes just because ....caughOrsinocaugh...

You're not really making any sense here. A plot device is a character or story who exists to advance the story; every story in existence uses them.

I really do not see how the mature topics featured in DA2 were approached in a kiddied-down way. Take the mage-templar conflict in DA3; there's no easy solution here, no one person who can be slain and then suddenly everything's OK. There's no way to sit everyone down and talk out their differences. On the other hand, the Broken Circle quest simply demands that the Warden slay a bunch of demon and then decide whether the surviving mages should be spared or slaughtered because they might have demons in them. You don't have to pass judgement on the system and the "morally right" choice is obvious.

How was that, say, more "mature" than the choice presented to you in Enemies Among Us, where you're also called on to decide whether Keran can re-join the Templar Order? They're virtually the same decision.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

In DAO, the choice of how you address things with Conner (when the loop-hole Circle option is not used) leads
to either a intense sacrifice by Isolde or the heart breaking slaying of a child. Not only is the hard choice there, but the decision is felt later on in the game with follow up dialogue from Eamon, Alistair and others.

But you didn't have to sacrifice Isolde or kill Connor. I never did. Why would I, when there's a perfectly viable third option? For all your talk about it being a "hard choice," it actually wasn't.

I hate being in the position of having to rag on Origins in order to defend DA2, because I enjoyed both games. I just wish you guys would stop pretending that Origins was this paragon of perfection.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:41 .

[Drasanil]

thats1evildude wrote...
You're not really making any sense here. A plot device is a character or story who exists to advance the story; every story in existence uses them.

Sure, but not every story in existance relies on them to get everything done. Unlike say DA2, where the plot essentially requires every one in the game to hold an idiot ball and/or have some random doo-hickey fall into some one's lap for things to move along. 

And I don't agree with you when you say the mature topics featured in DA2 were approached in a kiddied-down way.

Really?

Why did Anders blow up the chantry? Because Justice made him do it. If anything Anders is possibly the worst one of the bunch as Justice is used to explain just about everything.

Why did Meredith go from zealot to full blown tyrant? Because plot device made her do it.

Why did Bartrand happen? Also because of the previously mentioned plot device.

Why does Orsino turn on you? Just because.

Why does that mage you help in Act 1 want to kill you in Act 3? No real reason.

Why did the Qunari happen?  Because of a doo-hickey and Hawke being oblivious.

--- --- --- ---

EDIT:

thats1evildude wrote...
I really do not see how the mature topics featured in DA2 were approached in a kiddied-down way. Take the mage-templar conflict in DA3; there's no easy solution here, no one person who can be slain and then suddenly everything's OK. There's no way to sit everyone down and talk out their differences.

They're handled in an immature way because they all have very convenient explinations and fairly flimsy motives that rely primarily on people not being ultimately responsible for their own actions.  Loghain did what he did because of his own faults and failings, you could even got the impression during the cut scenes he doubted his own actions and seemed remorseful at times. Anders did what he did because of Justice and Meredith because of a shiny red rock.  

On the other hand, the Broken Circle quest simply demands that the Warden slay a bunch of demon and then decide whether the surviving mages should be spared or slaughtered because they might have demons in them. You don't have to pass judgement on the system and the "morally right" choice is obvious.

What 'morally right' choice? Both are equally valid options, in the same way as your previously mentioned Keren example... Actually no wait its a greyer choice since you can get Merill to certify that Keren is demon-free where as you never get proof one way or the other that some of the surviving mages haven't been tainted or weren't simply blood mages playing possum.

Modifié par Drasanil, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[addiction21]

Why does anything happen?

Plot...

I have just summed up every story EVER!

[thats1evildude]

Drasanil wrote...

Sure, but not every story in existance relies on them to get everything done.

I'm not convinced you know what a plot device actually is. The definition I mentioned is pretty broad. Most stories employ them. The One Ring from the Lord of the Rings is a Plot Device. The Ark of the Covenant is a Plot Device. The wormwhole knowledge in Crichton's head was a plot device. Duncan from Dragon Age: Origins was a living plot device; his appearances in the six Origin stories was the deciding factor in which character went on to be a Grey Warden.

Since you're in favour of quoting terms from TV Tropes like Idiot Ball, I'll note that the site itself has this to say:

'The term is commonly used in a derisory manner, on the grounds that the best stories are character driven, and using an object to make things happen is thus seen as a sign of Bad Writing. However, there are plenty of good stories which do indeed revolve around a plot device; equally, a plot device can very easily be used to generate conflict and thus spark a character-driven story."

"Almost by definition, stories have plot devices."

Drasanil wrote...

Why did Anders blow up the chantry? Because Justice made him do it. If anything Anders is possibly the worst one of the bunch as Justice is used to explain just about everything.

Well, this was supposed to be a spoiler-free forum, but since you let the cat out of the bag ...

Anders destroyed the Chantry to remove any possibility of the conflict being resolved peacefully. And it's very debatable how much of Anders' actions were the result of Justice's influence.

Drasanil wrote...

Why did Meredith go from zealot to full blown tyrant? Because plot device made her do it.

Well, I guess I can't argue with you there, as the lyrium idol is a plot device. Though again, you're mistakenly equating PLOT DEVICE with BAD. You may as well complain how the One Ring drove Gollum insane.

Drasanil wrote...

Why did Bartrand happen? Also because of the previously mentioned plot device.

I don't know what you mean by "happen", but if you're referring to his betrayal in the Deep Roads, it's clear that Bartrand was a pretty greedy bastard and the lyrium idol was a find of significant value.

Drasanil wrote...

Why does Orsino turn on you? Just because.

Perhaps that was handled badly, as Orsino's transformation is a sticking point with most people. Nonetheless, it was clear to me that he was driven mad with grief over the slaughter of his charges. He didn't "turn on you" so much as he transformed into a Harvester with the intention of slaughtering everyone in the Gallows, including Meredith and the templars.

Drasanil wrote...

Why does that mage you help in Act 1 want to kill you in Act 3? No real reason.

Because Grace was a self-serving cow who blamed others for her misfortune. That was pretty obvious from Day 1, actually.

Drasanil wrote...

Why did the Qunari happen?  Because of a doo-hickey and Hawke being oblivious.

Again, I don't really know what you mean by "happen". Do you refer to their search for the Tome of Koslun? Why is it bad for them to search for a religious artifact? How was their search for the book different than, say, Branka's search for the Anvil of the Void?

A lot of what you're arguing here deals with characterization, not plot devices.

Drasanil wrote...

What 'morally right' choice?

It's clear that sparing the mages is the morally "right" choice because you encounter mages who are clearly not possessed. The only people advocating for their wholesale slaughter either abhor mages for various reasons (ie. Morrigan or Sten) or have been deeply traumatized by their experiences (ie. Cullen).

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[KLUME777]

BrandonMotz wrote...

More blood... More gore...

I agree that DA2 has been "dumbed down", but needing more blood and gore?

*Ahem* - exploding darkspawn bodies, anyone?

Its already at an unrealistic and childish level now, so less is needed.

[KLUME777]

naledgeborn wrote...

I don't think so. I have a 12 year old cousin who's pretty much a gamer (better stay that way or I'll smack the **** out of him if he develops negative interests).

Anyway he wanted to sleep over the weekend an saw me playing DA2, DX:HR, and what have you. I let him start a new game in DA2. He was enthralled but he couldn't wrap his melon around the fact that he had to assign attribute points after I spent 5 mintues explaining it to him. Granted he's 12 but the kid is sharp for his age.

This revelation has lead me to believe that DA2 isn't as "streamlined" as the forum goers like to think. Perhaps poorly executed in the design department due to time restraints but that's not saying this game "is for kids".

Well i was playing Kotor and assigning attribute points at 10yrs old.