429 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

thats1evildude wrote...

esper wrote...

In da:o such things were brushed aside as they were never mentioned again. But in da2 you can express a change in opnion to your LI, you can blame Aveline, you can choose how you react to your family (Gamlen and Sibling) and it is still brought up three years after. If your Hawke does not change from it, it is because you do not want Hawke to change. 

Case in point: Tamlen's attack on the party camp as a ghoul. Alistair will express sympathy depending on your dialogue choices, but the rest of the party? Eh, the Warden can stick it out. Mercy killing your best friend isn't that big a deal, right?

Again, I hate being in the position of having to rag on Origins.

There is one fundamental difference here: Origins had 6 different backgrounds to take into account. The whole Tamlen thing was 1 out of 6 possible ways to play the game, meaning there would be 1 in 6 chance that someone would even see this content. It's honestly understandable that there wasn't a heap of content on this particular subject.

DA2, on the other hand, has this event happen every playthrough. There is no way around this event, and this game is also supposed to be focused on family, unlike origins. This event should have had far more face time than the Tamlen ordeal.

And honestly, when someone critisizes a particular aspect of DA2, people should stop replying with "WELL DAO DIDN"T DO IT!!". In a sequel there should be improvement, and in the sequel after that there should be an even more refined and improved game. Saying the predecessor is an inferior game every time someone critisizes the sequel, is such a pointless exercise. Improvement will never be made that way.

[thats1evildude]

I never said Origins was inferior to DA2. My point was that Origins was not superior to DA2.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 septembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Morroian]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

There is one fundamental difference here: Origins had 6 different backgrounds to take into account. The whole Tamlen thing was 1 out of 6 possible ways to play the game, meaning there would be 1 in 6 chance that someone would even see this content. It's honestly understandable that there wasn't a heap of content on this particular subject.

And just to take this in a different direction this is an example of where multiple origins fails.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

DA2, on the other hand, has this event happen every playthrough. There is no way around this event, and this game is also supposed to be focused on family, unlike origins. This event should have had far more face time than the Tamlen ordeal.

What should they have done? And why? they had a couple of moments of Hawke dealing with it where there was a certain amount of leeway in role playing a reaction. There's dialogue later. I don't see they needed to do any more. 

[AlexXIV]

It felt shallower than DA:O. So you can see it as you want. My perception is that it is rather meant for younger players who are in for the action and don't ask too many questions.

[abaris]

It's not tailored for kids. It's tailored for the lowest common denominator. A friendly word oftenly used is the casual gamer, a less friendly word would be beer gobbling couch potato with reading disabilities. Hence the button mashing mayhem.

It's not about old or young, it's about making as much money as you can out of as many people as you can get. Not a Bioware speciality, but using an established franchise to pull that trick, really is something to behold. And not in a positive way.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Morroian wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

There is one fundamental difference here: Origins had 6 different backgrounds to take into account. The whole Tamlen thing was 1 out of 6 possible ways to play the game, meaning there would be 1 in 6 chance that someone would even see this content. It's honestly understandable that there wasn't a heap of content on this particular subject.

And just to take this in a different direction this is an example of where multiple origins fails.

Yet each origin had almost as much, or in some cases, more depth than DA2's family aspect.

What should they have done? And why? they had a couple of moments of Hawke dealing with it where there was a certain amount of leeway in role playing a reaction. There's dialogue later. I don't see they needed to do any more. 

Honestly, just more content surrounding that particular event, at that time. Not 3 years later when someone mentions her name once. This event and the content surrounfing it also should have been the very last parts of act 2. The fact that you are back into doing Kirkwall's dirty work right after your mother's death, is rather jarring. And don't give me the crap about "Roleplaying it" in my head. The closer we can get to actual in game events showing our PC's reaction as opposed to doing a "head-canon" the better.

[Giant ambush beetle]

casadechrisso wrote...

You can easily take out a certain aspect of the game and say it's adult, but that still makes the game not mature as a whole. Blood and gore? Yes, there's enough of it and it's so over the top one can't take it serious anymore (same for DA:O actually). Just take Merill's Long Way quest where she opens the magic barrier. The poor elf makes a small cut and spills out more blood than fits into her in a large fountain all over the place. That might get you a "Blood" from ESBR, and it's still nothing but Monty Python.

The same goes for sex (and I'm not asking for nudity in the game at all), just because Isabella makes a cheeky remark about the lower body regions doesn't make it more mature. Her own body contradicts any mature
impression her words might give anyway (but it's just me maybe). You get a "Language" from the ESBR and it's still on a teenager level.

And all those "adult, dark" topics in the story. This really depends on the presentation, and if the presentation is not mature, but simple and naive, then it's not really the same. Nothing in DA2 came close to a mature level simply because non of the oh-so-dramatic situations made me care. DA:O did better, especially in some Origin stories I really felt with the characters. Shianni being "mistreated" was emotional, as was the loss of the parents. But in DA2 it's more like "info: NPC has been raped to add shock value, please react emotional now" and you just shrug
your shoulders and don't care because it means nothing to you unless the word alone makes you faint. That's where I think the story fails to be mature, if it doesn't make you care it's only 18+ because of the topic, but not because of your reception. ESBR says "mature themes" because it's written in, sure, but that's all.

Show me a 14 year old who doesn't use the word (here the filter prevents me to write an originally harmless word describing a cat) for something else than an animal, and yet it's not mature at all.

Let's be realistic, just because the ESBR marks something as mature it doesn't mean it's not a teenager topic in reality. They probably talk about sex, drugs and shooting up stuff ten times more than a mid-twen would. And as a
teenager it was awesome to play all those 18-rated violent or sex-drivengames (well, being not the youngest anymore that would be something like Leisure Suit Larry etc.), but please, those games were hardly adult
games. As an adult my interests changed quickly to something more realistic and story driven, speak: mature. And not only The Witcher did this much better, there are many examples from all over the place that make DA2 feel like a teen game. Someone above said DA2 lacked the subtility and love for detail Origins had, and I think that plays a
major role. And well, yeah, artwork and kiddy combat animations play such a major role in the "teen game" impression the story would've had to be much, much better to keep the game feeling mature.

(edit: sorry for funny edits, the boards don't play well with me atm)

Good post! I couldn't agree more with you, I think I owe you a drink now!

[Uccio]

esper wrote...

It is not brushed aside. Even three years after Hawke is mentioning having trouble going into the Mother's room, and it is rubbed in you face by Meridith-
How you choose Hawke to react is your problem. it is a roleplaying game so bioware cannot make all Hawke have a universial break down more than they do. If your Hawke fails to be developed by the act it is your problem not the games.
For my canon Hawke it is the act that started to break her and Avelines relentionship. (I love the whole blaming Aveline thing, it is well written)
My spirit Healer is still in denial about it happening.
For my final Hawke (who was the only one to rival Anders) it is the thing that makes her cling on to Anders despite actually not loving him as much as my canon, but he was literraly all she had left in the world.
My current hasn't reached this point yet, so I don't know. But currently I am planning to have it being the thing that completely robs her of any sense of mercy.

if it is not affecting your Hawke it is your problem. In da:o such things were brushed aside as they were never mentioned again. But in da2 you can express a change in opnion to your LI, you can blame Aveline, you can choose how you react to your family (Gamlen and Sibling) and it is still brought up three years after. If your Hawke does not change from it, it is because you do not want Hawke to change. 

Minor issues. That event should have echoed through out the game or atleast in much more detail than it did. Blaming Aveline was so minor option that I didn´t even bother to go that route (except to see what came out of it, momentarily).

Lets face it, getting right back doing minor works for people of Kirkwal after mom had been butchered is a virtual slap in the face. Who in their right mind would not react to such thing, and I´m not talking about taking vacation in local asolym.

Modifié par Ukki, 29 septembre 2011 - 01:15 .

[Cyberarmy]

There is too much blood, gore and fighting and there are a lot of ugly humanoids around.
I dont think its suitable for "the kids"

Well death effect (new IP?) was a bit like lego maybe they can still try it without blood

[Gibb_Shepard]

Cyberarmy wrote...

There is too much blood, gore and fighting and there are a lot of ugly humanoids around.
I dont think its suitable for "the kids"

Well death effect (new IP?) was a bit like lego maybe they can still try it without blood

Please, kids revel in that stuff. 12 years and up they're looking for hot chicks, ****loads of gore and monsters.

As has been mentioned many times in this thread, a mature game isn't decided by these external factors.

[Cyberarmy]

I know they revel in that stuff becuase i was one of them a while ago.
But that does not make it right.

[Joy Divison]

Not made for kids.

But also not made people looking for a story with depth, sophisticated antagonists, and protagonists who actively shape a meaningful plot.

[Josaatt]

Regardless of boobs and blood and ACTION, it was surely made for kids: childish story, childish characters, childish presentation.

[Aradace]

Uhhhh OP, I dont know about YOUR copy of DA2...But mine certainly had an M rating on it. So the part in your post saying something about putting an M rating on DA3, kinda moot seeing as how it was on the first game, AND second game as well.

Modifié par Aradace, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:10 .

[esper]

Ukki wrote...

esper wrote...

It is not brushed aside. Even three years after Hawke is mentioning having trouble going into the Mother's room, and it is rubbed in you face by Meridith-
How you choose Hawke to react is your problem. it is a roleplaying game so bioware cannot make all Hawke have a universial break down more than they do. If your Hawke fails to be developed by the act it is your problem not the games.
For my canon Hawke it is the act that started to break her and Avelines relentionship. (I love the whole blaming Aveline thing, it is well written)
My spirit Healer is still in denial about it happening.
For my final Hawke (who was the only one to rival Anders) it is the thing that makes her cling on to Anders despite actually not loving him as much as my canon, but he was literraly all she had left in the world.
My current hasn't reached this point yet, so I don't know. But currently I am planning to have it being the thing that completely robs her of any sense of mercy.

if it is not affecting your Hawke it is your problem. In da:o such things were brushed aside as they were never mentioned again. But in da2 you can express a change in opnion to your LI, you can blame Aveline, you can choose how you react to your family (Gamlen and Sibling) and it is still brought up three years after. If your Hawke does not change from it, it is because you do not want Hawke to change. 

Minor issues. That event should have echoed through out the game or atleast in much more detail than it did. Blaming Aveline was so minor option that I didn´t even bother to go that route (except to see what came out of it, momentarily).

Lets face it, getting right back doing minor works for people of Kirkwal after mom had been butchered is a virtual slap in the face. Who in their right mind would not react to such thing, and I´m not talking about taking vacation in local asolym.

Your Hawke could react which is more than your warden was allowed to do many times. Those minor mentions are a big step up, and it can't be more because some people play Hawkes who doesn't react openly, they should be respected as well. As for going back to doing minor favours. Well life most go on. No matter who dies the time your work allows you to grief is not eternal. Time in games is subjective, you can easily says that you Hawke takes a week or two 'off' in your head to grief, there are no many mentions about much time that passess between each quest. The only time frame we have is the time skips. Your companions and other npc reacts on it, and mentions it even three years after. That is actually all you can demand.   

[Nerevar-as]

Not for kids. But I felt the game was afraid of scaring away people who don´t want to think at all when playing.

[Pasquale1234]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

There is one fundamental difference here: Origins had 6 different backgrounds to take into account. The whole Tamlen thing was 1 out of 6 possible ways to play the game, meaning there would be 1 in 6 chance that someone would even see this content. It's honestly understandable that there wasn't a heap of content on this particular subject.

And just to take this in a different direction this is an example of where multiple origins fails.

Yet each origin had almost as much, or in some cases, more depth than DA2's family aspect.

Not to mention that each different origin could give the Warden an entirely different view of the world and his/her place in it - assuming that the player really wants to roleplay and see the world, events, characters, etc. through that specific protag's eyes.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:33 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

And honestly, when someone critisizes a particular aspect of DA2, people should stop replying with "WELL DAO DIDN"T DO IT!!". In a sequel there should be improvement, and in the sequel after that there should be an even more refined and improved game. Saying the predecessor is an inferior game every time someone critisizes the sequel, is such a pointless exercise. Improvement will never be made that way.

Thaaaank you! These crtitcisms really got ridiculous after a short time. 

[Giant ambush beetle]

Cyberarmy wrote...

There is too much blood, gore and fighting and there are a lot of ugly humanoids around.
I dont think its suitable for "the kids"

Well death effect (new IP?) was a bit like lego maybe they can still try it without blood

Mature rating and a mature game are two very different things, to me, Dragon Age 2 feels like the immature ''kewl'' fantasy story of a 14 year old kid.  
Extreme blood, gore, violence and over-sexualized characters don't make a game feel mature, in fact, lots of it makes the game immature.

[Uccio]

esper wrote...

Ukki wrote...

esper wrote...

It is not brushed aside. Even three years after Hawke is mentioning having trouble going into the Mother's room, and it is rubbed in you face by Meridith-
How you choose Hawke to react is your problem. it is a roleplaying game so bioware cannot make all Hawke have a universial break down more than they do. If your Hawke fails to be developed by the act it is your problem not the games.
For my canon Hawke it is the act that started to break her and Avelines relentionship. (I love the whole blaming Aveline thing, it is well written)
My spirit Healer is still in denial about it happening.
For my final Hawke (who was the only one to rival Anders) it is the thing that makes her cling on to Anders despite actually not loving him as much as my canon, but he was literraly all she had left in the world.
My current hasn't reached this point yet, so I don't know. But currently I am planning to have it being the thing that completely robs her of any sense of mercy.

if it is not affecting your Hawke it is your problem. In da:o such things were brushed aside as they were never mentioned again. But in da2 you can express a change in opnion to your LI, you can blame Aveline, you can choose how you react to your family (Gamlen and Sibling) and it is still brought up three years after. If your Hawke does not change from it, it is because you do not want Hawke to change. 

Minor issues. That event should have echoed through out the game or atleast in much more detail than it did. Blaming Aveline was so minor option that I didn´t even bother to go that route (except to see what came out of it, momentarily).

Lets face it, getting right back doing minor works for people of Kirkwal after mom had been butchered is a virtual slap in the face. Who in their right mind would not react to such thing, and I´m not talking about taking vacation in local asolym.

Your Hawke could react which is more than your warden was allowed to do many times. Those minor mentions are a big step up, and it can't be more because some people play Hawkes who doesn't react openly, they should be respected as well. As for going back to doing minor favours. Well life most go on. No matter who dies the time your work allows you to grief is not eternal. Time in games is subjective, you can easily says that you Hawke takes a week or two 'off' in your head to grief, there are no many mentions about much time that passess between each quest. The only time frame we have is the time skips. Your companions and other npc reacts on it, and mentions it even three years after. That is actually all you can demand.   

I wasn´t comparing DA2 to Origins in that regards. There were many occasions in O too which I would have loved to see in more depth. Such as reuinion with friends and relatives as city elf, or how the noble character could handle the situation with Arl Howe. But, since you mentioned it, O did do a better job with the overall adult feeling whereas 2 did not.

Modifié par Ukki, 29 septembre 2011 - 04:34 .

[Atakuma]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Not for kids. But I felt the game was afraid of scaring away people who don´t want to think at all when playing.

That is such BS, Origins didn't require any more thought than DA2. All of origins so called complexities were totally superfluous and could be ignored completely.

[esper]

Ukki wrote...

esper wrote...

Ukki wrote...

esper wrote...

It is not brushed aside. Even three years after Hawke is mentioning having trouble going into the Mother's room, and it is rubbed in you face by Meridith-
How you choose Hawke to react is your problem. it is a roleplaying game so bioware cannot make all Hawke have a universial break down more than they do. If your Hawke fails to be developed by the act it is your problem not the games.
For my canon Hawke it is the act that started to break her and Avelines relentionship. (I love the whole blaming Aveline thing, it is well written)
My spirit Healer is still in denial about it happening.
For my final Hawke (who was the only one to rival Anders) it is the thing that makes her cling on to Anders despite actually not loving him as much as my canon, but he was literraly all she had left in the world.
My current hasn't reached this point yet, so I don't know. But currently I am planning to have it being the thing that completely robs her of any sense of mercy.

if it is not affecting your Hawke it is your problem. In da:o such things were brushed aside as they were never mentioned again. But in da2 you can express a change in opnion to your LI, you can blame Aveline, you can choose how you react to your family (Gamlen and Sibling) and it is still brought up three years after. If your Hawke does not change from it, it is because you do not want Hawke to change. 

Minor issues. That event should have echoed through out the game or atleast in much more detail than it did. Blaming Aveline was so minor option that I didn´t even bother to go that route (except to see what came out of it, momentarily).

Lets face it, getting right back doing minor works for people of Kirkwal after mom had been butchered is a virtual slap in the face. Who in their right mind would not react to such thing, and I´m not talking about taking vacation in local asolym.

Your Hawke could react which is more than your warden was allowed to do many times. Those minor mentions are a big step up, and it can't be more because some people play Hawkes who doesn't react openly, they should be respected as well. As for going back to doing minor favours. Well life most go on. No matter who dies the time your work allows you to grief is not eternal. Time in games is subjective, you can easily says that you Hawke takes a week or two 'off' in your head to grief, there are no many mentions about much time that passess between each quest. The only time frame we have is the time skips. Your companions and other npc reacts on it, and mentions it even three years after. That is actually all you can demand.   

I wasn´t comparing DA2 to Origins in that regards. There were many occasions in O too which I would have loved to see in more depth. Such as reuinion with friends and relatives as city elf, or how the noble character could handle the situation with Arl Howe. But, since you mentioned it, O did do a better job with the overall adult feeling whereas 2 did not.

The problem is that you can't get more than what Hawke had because some people like playing 'stoic' characters and they should be allowed as well. I have seriously red posts that stated that Hawke showed too much emotion in that scene. You simply have to make the context in you head and be glad that the companions at least are reaction to the fact that something with an emotinal impact has happened to the protagonist. It is a step up, and it properly won't get much better. 
I would personally have like that Hawke gained the oppertunity to cry, but I just roleplay it as she does when the fade to black with the LI happens.  

[pmac_tk421]

Enough of the god damn QQing, seriously. You guys need to shut up and accept it for what it is. It's a damn good game, but if you hate very thing bioware does, why the hell are you still here?

[Drasanil]

thats1evildude wrote...

That wasn't really the basis of my argument anyway; as i said in another post, the "morally right" choice is not to kill people because they MIGHT be abominations when there is no evidence of demonic possession. And the only people arguing otherwise are morally wrong (ie. Morrigan) or not thinking clearly (ie. Cullen).

Given what a single abonimation could do and the extremely graphic display the warden had just witnessed of it, there is no 'morally right' choice. That's the entire point of the situation and of a game that lacks a morality meter. Furthermore, did you ever pick the option? Irving actually agrees with you and Gregor doesn't slaughter the mages out of hand, but places them under quaranteen and supervision.    

I'm starting to think every 'obviously morally right' option should carry a 50/50 chance of blowing up in your face if only to disabuse people of the notion of 'obviously morally right' in a game that's not supposed to have morality system. 

That is the EXACT SAME dilemma you face in Enemies Among Us. Claiming that Broken Circle was more complex is ignoring that Broken Circle presented a fairly simple dilemma with rather obvious right and wrong solutions. (In fact, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if Enemies Among Us was meant as a callback to Broken Circle.)

Actually it's not. Looking at the situation more closely the dilemma is one you're not even given a chance to resolve, unless you have the Anders/Merill certificate of purity. You're options are let a potentially tainted person rejoin the templars (which is a big risk according to Cullen) or boot them out and let said potentially tainted person wander around free in the general population with out supervision (which following Cullen's logic should be an equally big risk). There's no moral dilemma because both 'solutions' still leave you with the same fundemental problem, namely having a potentially tainted person running around where they could cause a lot of damage.

Well, I'd say that DA2 uses plot devices to help generate a character-driven story.

But it doesn't, Varric is upset, he kills his brother and two seconds later moves on like everything is hunky-dory. It adds nothing to Varric as a character, they might have well just had a quest about Varric going grocery shopping and being stuck in line behind an old lady with a fondness for counting penies. 

Actually, I would argue that's an example of character development.

I would argue you're being purposefully thick: the character doesn't actually develop, an external device or agent changes him. It's the 'A wizard did it' approach to character development in the same sense that your 'your lawful good paladin is now a chaotic evil blackguard because he picked up the opposite alignment sword', the character doesn't actually grow or evolve through any agency of their own they just change because.

[xkg]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

Enough of the god damn QQing, seriously. You guys need to shut up and accept it for what it is. It's a damn good game, but if you hate very thing bioware does, why the hell are you still here?

If you hate what people are posting, what the hell are you doing here ?

Modifié par xkg, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:16 .