429 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Pygmali0n wrote...

The reboot brought in people who are comfortable having a my little pony avatar non-ironically.

They were here before too. There were no custom avatar system for the old forums though, so there you didn't notice them.

[Pygmali0n]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Pygmali0n wrote...

The reboot brought in people who are comfortable having a my little pony avatar non-ironically. 

Personal anecdote: I do quite like the new My Little Pony cartoon, it's just so... nice. Some of my friends like it as well. We all played DA:O and mostly loved it. I'm the only one who played DA2, the others decided not to after playing the demo, reading user reviews and listening to me talk about it.

Exactly my point there, I haven't seen it and I'm sure it's charming and sweet like you say, and a tonic to all who watch, it's not trying to knock Game of Thrones out of the schedules so I've nothing against it.


*You don't get a bestseller on your hands by pandering to one focus group or the next ('keeping the best of both DA:O and DA2' is the wrong way to think about it), genres cross over to reach others when they stay true but have broad themes which anyone can relate to, but most importantly of all are just really, really well written.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 02 octobre 2011 - 04:38 .

[LordKinoda]

Hate to tell you this but some of us really don't need full blown porn in our vid games. I do think that ME1 was tasteful and REALLY wish that ME2 and DAO had something like those because the dry humping was just stupid and embarrising. I would have even preferred the fade to black. BG2 did this, KotOR did this, these are great games in spite of passing up on the opportunity to have full nude sex shot in the game. I would prefer nude but tasteful (no shown nudity) or just a fade to black. Getting the game an 'Adults Only' rating because you would insist on and adult sex scene is just not worth it. If anyone needs nudity that bad there is this thing called the internet..

Heh, I love how you just choose to read snippets out of my posts and then comment. At least take the minute and read the WHOLE thing before you reply to me. I never said that pornographic scenes are neccessary or needed. But scenes akin to R-rated movie are warranted, plain and simple.

Because they choose to have moments in the game where there will be an inevitable situation involving the main character and their romantic interest, a visual representation is required, and a real one at that. Fade to black is a lazy and/or chicken mierda move to avoid controversy. Take DAO for example. The scenes are really awful with their clothes on. However, if one owns the PC version and downloads the nudity mod, viola, plenty tasteful and realistically done scene. Now if one were do this for DA2, it STILL doesn't work.

If kids want the game bad enough, they WILL have it one way or another. It shouldn't be up to the game developers to "censor" their content to help cater to a younger audience that shouldn't even be playing the game in the first place. Hell, if they were any kind of smart they'd know there are parental controls built right into the damn console to block access to certain ratings.

Yes there are plenty of adult aspects of the game, that's not in question. It's the fact that the elements are sterilized in such a way that they could very nearly be in a rated T game.

[LeBurns]

LordKinoda wrote...

Heh, I love how you just choose to read snippets out of my posts and then comment. At least take the minute and read the WHOLE thing before you reply to me. I never said that pornographic scenes are neccessary or needed. But scenes akin to R-rated movie are warranted, plain and simple.

Because they choose to have moments in the game where there will be an inevitable situation involving the main character and their romantic interest, a visual representation is required, and a real one at that. Fade to black is a lazy and/or chicken mierda move to avoid controversy. Take DAO for example. The scenes are really awful with their clothes on. However, if one owns the PC version and downloads the nudity mod, viola, plenty tasteful and realistically done scene. Now if one were do this for DA2, it STILL doesn't work.

And I disagree. I do not want or need to see an R-rated sex scene in a video game. I find it hard to believe that you do. Why are you playing a game if you need this instead? I understand developing characters and relationships in a game is important and fun, but the sex scene is not needed to do this. If it is, then it is the game developer who resorts to this that is lame because they can not write a decent story so they have to throw a sex scene in the game to get the point across. That is lazy. Relationships are built on dialog, not sex. If a relationship culminates into a romantic encounter I can easily accept a ME1 type scene without having the act spelled out for me visually.

[Uccio]

^ Does this add to movies too?

[Sutekh]

LeBurns wrote...

And I disagree. I do not want or need to see an R-rated sex scene in a video game. I find it hard to believe that you do. Why are you playing a game if you need this instead? I understand developing characters and relationships in a game is important and fun, but the sex scene is not needed to do this. If it is, then it is the game developer who resorts to this that is lame because they can not write a decent story so they have to throw a sex scene in the game to get the point across. That is lazy. Relationships are built on dialog, not sex. If a relationship culminates into a romantic encounter I can easily accept a ME1 type scene without having the act spelled out for me visually.

Why are you assuming that a sex scene is always a crutch to support a badly developped romance? You can convey many things through a sex scene. The way characters interact in an utterly intimate moment when they're supposed to be baring their soul - or at least be much less bound by social conventions - tells much about the nature of a relationship, especially for first times. Are they violent? Tender? Passionate? Playful? In synch? Casual? All of the above? Does one of the partner take the lead? etc...

A well-written sex scene, be it in a movie, a book or a game, is a beautiful thing to behold. You're basically downgrading it to base porn, which it isn't. The only problem with games is the technical aspect which can turn things from embarrassing to downward ugly, and I'll take fade to black any time over awkward misaligned cinematics.

[LeBurns]

Ukki wrote...

^ Does this add to movies too?

Absolutely.

How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days
Sleepless in Seatle
The Wedding Planner
French Kiss
Return to Me
While You Where Sleeping

etc. and so on.  Some of my favorite movies, but none of them have an R-Rated sex scene.  Why not?  They could easily justify one couldn't they?  It's because they don't need them, and a video game should need one either.

[LeBurns]

Sutekh wrote...

LeBurns wrote...

And I disagree. I do not want or need to see an R-rated sex scene in a video game. I find it hard to believe that you do. Why are you playing a game if you need this instead? I understand developing characters and relationships in a game is important and fun, but the sex scene is not needed to do this. If it is, then it is the game developer who resorts to this that is lame because they can not write a decent story so they have to throw a sex scene in the game to get the point across. That is lazy. Relationships are built on dialog, not sex. If a relationship culminates into a romantic encounter I can easily accept a ME1 type scene without having the act spelled out for me visually.

Why are you assuming that a sex scene is always a crutch to support a badly developped romance? You can convey many things through a sex scene. The way characters interact in an utterly intimate moment when they're supposed to be baring their soul - or at least be much less bound by social conventions - tells much about the nature of a relationship, especially for first times. Are they violent? Tender? Passionate? Playful? In synch? Casual? All of the above? Does one of the partner take the lead? etc...

A well-written sex scene, be it in a movie, a book or a game, is a beautiful thing to behold. You're basically downgrading it to base porn, which it isn't. The only problem with games is the technical aspect which can turn things from embarrassing to downward ugly, and I'll take fade to black any time over awkward misaligned cinematics.

I can agree with this, but would have to add that I have never seen a 'well-written' sex scene in a game do this.  Maybe the game designers are not trying.  Maybe they are just bad at it.  If someone actually becomes good at this new sexual art form, then that would be great, but I haven't seen it yet.  If they did add it to a game I would have to say that the game should be rated A and not M.  But game ratings should be more of a parent issue, but since parents can't play every game that is out there the rating need to give them some idea of what they are allowing their kids to be exposed to.  But since my son is 20 now I don't worry too much about that.

If you think a good 'well-written' sex scene should be in every M rated game with relationships, then I would have to just disagree with you and we would need to agree to disagree on that point.

Modifié par LeBurns, 04 octobre 2011 - 06:40 .

[Sutekh]

LeBurns wrote...

If you think a good 'well-written' sex scene should be in every M rated game with relationships, then I would have to just disagree with you and we would need to agree to disagree on that point.

Oh no, I don't. If something becomes "mandatory because rating", then chances are it will be uninspired at best. ("Oh look, guys, It's PEGI18. We must have them frolick a bit or we'll be downrated". Imagine that.) I was addressing "I do not want or need to see an R-rated sex scene in a video game." i.e. No sex scene at all. Especially considering R is not NC-17, so we're not talking about graphic scenes here.

As for truly good sex scenes in games, I know at least one (that comes to mind right now) that everyone and their uncle have already mentioned. And some in DAO weren't bad at all, with or without pants. But this is clearly in the eye of the beholder.

[LeBurns]

Sutekh wrote...

As for truly good sex scenes in games, I know at least one (that comes to mind right now) that everyone and their uncle have already mentioned. And some in DAO weren't bad at all, with or without pants. But this is clearly in the eye of the beholder.

As much as I love DAO the dry humping in the love scene was just terrible.  A very quick actual semi-nude scene like in ME1 would have been fine and the game could move on.  But the scene to scene to scene to scene of underwear sex in DAO just set a new low in romantic scenes in games.  Thank goodness I could escape out of them with a button tap.  I think the idea was that they wanted to do more than ME1 but were scared to death of the backlash that ME1 got before it was realized that it was really nothing.  The end result was terrible.  The DA2 scenes, which I've seen, were just as bad but thankfully much shorter.  The Witcher 2, which I've also seen, look better done and are certainly more graphic, but not having played the game I don't know how well they play into the development of the characters in the game (or if they are just what they look like, sex scenes).

[Pygmali0n]

Hmm, can't really see the need to turn this into a long-winded debate. Though most of what you both say is true did you ever consider that sex might just be fun?

The relationships were well-developed in DA:O and adding the scenes was just a bonus in this case. The DAO sex scenes were so bad they were great - unintentionally hilarious.

Where the problem might arise in DA2 is because 1. they were toned-down in content, marring the comedy standads of bad taste DA:O had set, but 2. featured more prominently as bait because relationships were made into a crude crutch to help the game along as everything was underdeveloped.

Where the scenes might have got away with being bad to mediocre, the rest of the game doesn't give them much cover when the cheated party storms in asking what's going on (unlockable and roomy wardrobes for DA3!).

And if someone is talented and writes the scenes well it really doesn't matter a damn what the motivation for including them is.

ME1 is the gold standard for these scenes, if only Bioware could grow the balls to weather a storm in a teacup and stick to this formula. Witcher 2's was pretty good, with intentional humour, actual breasts and guess what? No controversy because the rest of the game had not been kiddified.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:36 .

[Fast Jimmy]

LeBurns wrote...

How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days
Sleepless in Seatle
The Wedding Planner
French Kiss
Return to Me
While You Where Sleeping

etc. and so on.  Some of my favorite movies, but none of them have an R-Rated sex scene.  Why not?

How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days - PG13
Sleepless in Seatle - PG
The Wedding Planner - PG13
French Kiss - PG13
Return to Me - PG
While You Where Sleeping - PG

The answer to your question of "why not?"

Because none of them were a Rated-R movie. So... you're point is pretty much null and void.

Name a good Rated-R movie that deals with relationships or love that doesn't have at least one sex scene, then this point can be made.

For a game to ACTIVELY work to have an "M" rating by giving ridiculous violence and complete fan-service (especially in the case of Isabella, who was promiscuious but believable in DAO but just a flat out porn star in DA2) but to then skimp to having a PG-13 sex scene shows that elements of the game were completely customized for teens.

I'm not hating on violence or fan-service, nor am I clammoring for a full on sex scene, regardless of how tasteful or base it is. But consistency in approaching all content shows maturity. If you are going to have mature subjects, like serial killers, drug dealers, acts of violent protest and war, then STAY mature throughout. There's ways to interject humor, action, excitement and levity on serious subjects without resorting to cheap gimmicks.

As is, DA2 seemed to bobble on whether or not it wanted to be taken seriously by an older crowd or appear flashy and superficial to a younger crowd. Based on mixed reviews and lower than expected sales, I'd say they probably didn't acheive a happy medium of either.

[Il Divo]

I always love it when people attempt to attach intelligence and maturity to their gaming hobbies. One might think that playing DA:O is the equivalent of reading Aristotle based on some of these posts.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:46 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I always love it when people who have nothing to add to the conversation post their comments anyway to make them feel smug and competent.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I always love it when people who have nothing to add to the conversation post their comments anyway to make them feel smug and competent.

Now that's the thing that I'm getting at: I don't feel smug or competent because I played through a video game, which over 3 million other people also have managed to do. One of the most hilarious aspects I find on these forums is when it's not enough to criticize a game for being bad, we have to assert every possible criticism we can imagine of it. "Dragon Age 2 is for kids! Dragon Age 2 is dumbed down! Dragon Age 2 is responsible for world hunger!". This topic is a perfect example.

[Fast Jimmy]

That's a fair enough assessment.

However, if you just come out as say "DA2 is bad," then you get lynch mobbed by the fan boys (and girls). Discussing details about WHY you think the game is not your cup of tea at least gets the conversation going somewhere along the lines other than "you're just a console playing teenager who doesn't know squat about anything."

Which is the typical response from forumites if you say you like or hate DA2, ironically enough.

My only gripe on the subject is the lack on consistency with which "maturity" was applied. If you had put DA2 in book form, would its crowd be made of people who read Throne of Kings or Percy Harvin, The Lightning Thief?

[Pygmali0n]

Il Divo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I always love it when people who have nothing to add to the conversation post their comments anyway to make them feel smug and competent.

Now that's the thing that I'm getting at: I don't feel smug or competent because I played through a video game, which over 3 million other people also have managed to do. One of the most hilarious aspects I find on these forums is when it's not enough to criticize a game for being bad, we have to assert every possible criticism we can imagine of it. "Dragon Age 2 is for kids! Dragon Age 2 is dumbed down! Dragon Age 2 is responsible for world hunger!". This topic is a perfect example.

So you'd like to dumb down the forums?

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That's a fair enough assessment.

However, if you just come out as say "DA2 is bad," then you get lynch mobbed by the fan boys (and girls). Discussing details about WHY you think the game is not your cup of tea at least gets the conversation going somewhere along the lines other than "you're just a console playing teenager who doesn't know squat about anything."

True enough, and it's especially problematic when we can all hide behind the anonymity of the internet. I wonder how many people here would be so openly insulting in person over this topic? But that's also liable to happen just criticizing (or praising) the game, no mattter the criticism. Ex: Despite its originality compared to other Bioware games,  DA2's execution is probably Bioware's weakest. It still deals with concepts and ideas which I consider interesting and mature.

*waits for lynch mob*  

My only gripe on the subject is the lack on consistency with which "maturity" was applied. If you had put DA2 in book form, would its crowd be made of people who read Throne of Kings or Percy Harvin, The Lightning Thief?

Yeah, that's similar to my thinking. Taking a shot in the dark here, it's what happens when maturity is treated as synonymous with good, which is not always the case. The other issue is that "meant for kids" doesn't by necessity exclude mature content. Examples come to mind of Star Wars, Wall-E, etc, which easily appeal to a younger audience. I think a better way of putting it is that mature content typically deals with ideas and emotions which kids might not be able to fully appreciate.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Il Divo]

Pygmali0n wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I always love it when people who have nothing to add to the conversation post their comments anyway to make them feel smug and competent.

Now that's the thing that I'm getting at: I don't feel smug or competent because I played through a video game, which over 3 million other people also have managed to do. One of the most hilarious aspects I find on these forums is when it's not enough to criticize a game for being bad, we have to assert every possible criticism we can imagine of it. "Dragon Age 2 is for kids! Dragon Age 2 is dumbed down! Dragon Age 2 is responsible for world hunger!". This topic is a perfect example.

So you'd like to dumb down the forums?

Hehe, the thought crossed my mind.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dude, Wall-E was amazing.

Sorry, that's all I got. That movie ROCKED.

And I am comfortable enough in my age level to say that, despite it being a total kid's movie.

[LeBurns]

BrandonMotz wrote...

"Do you ever have the feeling that the word is getting.... simpler? Like everything from eating to fighting is a lot less complex than it used to be?"

Quote from talkative man in The Hanged Man

I was reading a post earlier in the week from someone who was miffed because DA2 was "Kiddied down" from Dragon Age 1 in its difficulty.

After going through my second playthrough I have to agree. From this quote it seems as if Bioware knows they kiddied it down. Cmon BW!! Plese make DA 3 more adult friendly! More tactical options, More blood... More gore... More sexually appealing options.

Video game target audience is what... 16 to 34?

Please Bioware, make DA3 for the mature audience (18 +)  and put an "M"rating on it. Let the stupid parents make the decision to purchase their underage children an M rated game take responsibility for their own actions, instead of forcing everyone to play a game that is suitable for 12 year old children.

Since we've kinda gone off chasing rabbits (myself included) I thought I'd start again with the OP.


The cartoon art style (plain colors and little or no clutter anywhere) - Kiddie

The waves and enemies literally falling out of the sky for me to attack - Kiddie

The super, over-the-top, impossible in real life, combat moves - Kiddie

Romance of talking, kissing, falling in bed and the next scene just talking about it - Kiddie

Bodies exploding into unrealistic bits of jam - Kiddie

Over stylized and over sized armor and weapons - Kiddie

Limited character customization - Kiddie

No real choices that matter - Kiddie


Overall, I would have to say the OP as a valid point.  If a DA3 is made (at this point I wouldn't care) I would hope that more goes into the details that would make the game more focused to the mature gamer.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Dude, Wall-E was amazing.

Sorry, that's all I got. That movie ROCKED.

And I am comfortable enough in my age level to say that, despite it being a total kid's movie.

Damn straight. It's probably my favorite Pixar work and that's saying alot considering they've made only great films.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:45 .

[Uccio]

LeBurns wrote...

BrandonMotz wrote...

"Do you ever have the feeling that the word is getting.... simpler? Like everything from eating to fighting is a lot less complex than it used to be?"

Quote from talkative man in The Hanged Man

I was reading a post earlier in the week from someone who was miffed because DA2 was "Kiddied down" from Dragon Age 1 in its difficulty.

After going through my second playthrough I have to agree. From this quote it seems as if Bioware knows they kiddied it down. Cmon BW!! Plese make DA 3 more adult friendly! More tactical options, More blood... More gore... More sexually appealing options.

Video game target audience is what... 16 to 34?

Please Bioware, make DA3 for the mature audience (18 +)  and put an "M"rating on it. Let the stupid parents make the decision to purchase their underage children an M rated game take responsibility for their own actions, instead of forcing everyone to play a game that is suitable for 12 year old children.

Since we've kinda gone off chasing rabbits (myself included) I thought I'd start again with the OP.


The cartoon art style (plain colors and little or no clutter anywhere) - Kiddie

The waves and enemies literally falling out of the sky for me to attack - Kiddie

The super, over-the-top, impossible in real life, combat moves - Kiddie

Romance of talking, kissing, falling in bed and the next scene just talking about it - Kiddie

Bodies exploding into unrealistic bits of jam - Kiddie

Over stylized and over sized armor and weapons - Kiddie

Limited character customization - Kiddie

No real choices that matter - Kiddie


Overall, I would have to say the OP as a valid point.  If a DA3 is made (at this point I wouldn't care) I would hope that more goes into the details that would make the game more focused to the mature gamer.

And there it is. Well summarized.

[Stanley Woo]

LeBurns wrote...
The cartoon art style (plain colors and little or no clutter anywhere) - Kiddie

Art direction does not indicate anything without the content. It is a medium through which the visual content is delivered and stories are told. There are many "non-kiddie" genres and stories told through use of comparatively simplistic art styles. Read "Maus" some time for an example of how mature a "cartoon" can be.

The waves and enemies literally falling out of the sky for me to attack - Kiddie

This doesn't make much sense at all. Disagreeing with something doesn't make it immature, nor does enemy spawn rate or placement. this word "kiddie," I do not think it means what you think it means.

The super, over-the-top, impossible in real life, combat moves - Kiddie

Mortal Kombat, God of War, The Matrix, wuxia films, Hong kong action films, ANY ACTION MOVIE. Realism does not indicate maturity or sophistication. This relates to art direction and presentation of combat. any game that involves magic portrays characters doing things impossible in real life, but what is actually, physically involved in the casting of a magic spell? Is it over the top to require a wand and incant verbally, or is it over the top to wave your hands around in a certain way? Heck, is it over the top to do anything but exert your will or read from a spellbook?

And is capoeira considered "over the top, impossible in real life, combat moves?" is your criteria real life, in which case you're missing the point of what fiction is all about, or is your criteria "things you yourself cannot do"?

Romance of talking, kissing, falling in bed and the next scene just talking about it - Kiddie

Again, this is a matter of presentation. You don't like the fade to black, fine. but we're not dealing with a binary state here (ie. either it shows nudity or it's for children). the implication I'm seeing from the pro-nudity, pro-more mature content arguments in this thread are that if we don't show boobies, the game is meant for children. Sorry, but this is precisely the "mature content does not necessarily mean graphic nudity, sex and violence" argument the anti-more mature content side is against. This is also the argument that the pro-more mature content side is insisting it's not saying..

Yes, we could certainly show more nudity or sex in our love scenes because we are a mature game and we are creating our game for mature audiences, both in age and attitude. But we are not obligated to include such content, nor does its absence indicate a lack or reduction in the maturity of the game or its developer. As purportedly "mature" gamers, we should be able to discuss our preferences, suggestions, and critiques without such "immature" statements.

Bodies exploding into unrealistic bits of jam - Kiddie

Japanese manga, some of which is anything but childish. Again, this is  matter of style and presentation, not maturity.

Over stylized and over sized armor and weapons - Kiddie

Once again, a matter of visual presentation/art direction, not maturity.

Limited character customization - Kiddie

Another one that makes no sense. There is no character customization in games like Max Payne 2, yet no one would call that game "immature" or "kiddie." Likewise, there is much character customization in MMOs like World of Warcraft, a game which has often been criticized as being "kiddie" or"simplistic" in this community. Lack of choice, or an abundance of choice, does not indicate maturity of a game or its developer. i don't consider Morrowind to be any more or less "mature" than Dragon Age 2 based on character customization options, nor do I consider Bioshock and more or less mature because of it.

No real choices that matter - Kiddie

Now this particular complaint is one of my pet peeves, not because it's not true, but because it's so subjective and people keep bringing it up like it's a universal constant like c. Many people complain that, because they can't go around killing people and have the game react to all that change, there is no choice in videogames. Some complain that, because the end boss is the same no matter what choices you make, there is no choice in videogames. And finally, some complain that, because they can't do every little thing that they can in real life (like eat, sleep, defecate, kick someone in the shins, slap someone, steal from people, belch, maintain weapons and armour, etc.), there is no choice in videogames.

I disagree with a lot of that. I think choice can be presented in a number of different ways. And depending on which definition of "choice" you're talking about, I can agree with you or disagree with you. Quite a lot! but i'm also on the developer side, which has to take into account all these "choices" and implement their consequences in the game.

Overall, I would have to say the OP as a valid point.  If a DA3 is made (at this point I wouldn't care) I would hope that more goes into the details that would make the game more focused to the mature gamer.

Obviously, you must care at least a little bit, or you wouldn't be here. And you must care more than just a little bit, otherwise you wouldn't be posting and trying to get your point heard and perhaps sympathized with. now, whether you care more than a bit is not my concern, but if you want to try and convince me Dragon Age II is a "kiddie" game, you're going to have to do a lot more than type "kiddie" after every thing you disagree with in the game. Sorry, but I can't agree with your agument.

[Vicious]

Dragon Age II has an M rating from the ESRB, meaning that in North America, the game is suggested for players aged 17 and up.

/thread