260 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I'm going to show you 10 items. 8 of them are red.

Now I tell you there are 100 more in this box over here.

How many do you think are red?


See, this is the mage issue in a nutshell, to me. You show me 10 mages. 8 need to die. You tell me there are 100 more in the Gallows, but I can't see them. Me, I assume 80 or so of them need to die, based on the sample shown.

Seems a lot of people assume 90 of them are pure, innocent, good people.
They might be, but I just can't see the logic of that thought process.

Well, the point is that Hawke is automatically drawn towards the evil mages. As it's Hawke's job to kill things, most of the mages he meets will be the ones that need killing. It's not a random sampling of mages, the same way your red items are. Using your logic, Hawke should wipe out all of Kirkwall because a majority of the people Hawke encounters in the city are bandits, slavers, mercenaries, or carta.

Actually, there are plenty of regular people in KIrkwall, vendors, random NPC's standing around, walking around, etc.  While we do see plenty of bandits, etc., I'd say it probably runs a lot closer to 50-50.

[MichaelFinnegan]

TJPags wrote...

I'm going to show you 10 items. 8 of them are red.

Now I tell you there are 100 more in this box over here.

How many do you think are red?

Don't know, unless it can be clearly shown the probability is the same.

See, this is the mage issue in a nutshell, to me. You show me 10 mages. 8 need to die. You tell me there are 100 more in the Gallows, but I can't see them. Me, I assume 80 or so of them need to die, based on the sample shown.

As you said, " you assume," which is all you're doing. There is no clear logic involved.

Seems a lot of people assume 90 of them are pure, innocent, good people.

Well, assumptions all around. In fact the different reasonings for the differing actions taken can be quite a bit more complex than just thinking 90 out of 100 are "pure."

I nowadays look at Cullen's views as the most rational among the lot. During The Final Straw, he clearly thinks that being a templar means taking responsibility for such actions [as sparing mages]. And he was willing to spare those mages who'd not resort to blood magic even to save themselves, despite those mages being faced with impossible odds.

[TJPags]

Well, I know we don't see them. That's why I used the example I did.

To me, it's a question of taking the sample we see, and expanding that out for the ones we don't see. Since we don't see them, I think it's a valid way of looking at it - not the only way, certainly, but a valid one.

[MichaelFinnegan]

TJPags wrote...

Well, I know we don't see them. That's why I used the example I did.

To me, it's a question of taking the sample we see, and expanding that out for the ones we don't see. Since we don't see them, I think it's a valid way of looking at it - not the only way, certainly, but a valid one.

I generally try not to question why people act the way they do in their games, simply because it's the way they play their games, with their views, idealogies, etc.

Still I could try to make a point. I think you're alluding to justifying the RoA here. Even if one agrees to an RoA (we don't have an option of preventing it from being declared), there are consequences involved. One of the consequences is an all-out Thedas-wide Circles rebellion, if I could read the situation correctly. So is this an outcome that people who decide to agree with RoA even consider? Because, by the nature of the act, it is apparent that the bombing was one mage's act, who wasn't even a Circle mage at that point; and for that act the whole of the Kirkwall Circle (in whatever condition it was in) was deemed responsible, to the extent of being entirely annuled. That being the case, how is it that one can decide to annul the Circle and still get away with not causing a wide-spread rebellion?

[Sons of Horus]

I just thought that Solivitus was just a mage part of the Formari who specialised in high level crafting of particular items rather than the Tranquil who could do the mundane to great. Ines Arancia wouldn't craft or gather items for a common potions usually, as the tranquil would be able carry those tasks out, she would create and experiment to make new kinds of potions.

[IanPolaris]

Sons of Horus wrote...

I just thought that Solivitus was just a mage part of the Formari who specialised in high level crafting of particular items rather than the Tranquil who could do the mundane to great. Ines Arancia wouldn't craft or gather items for a common potions usually, as the tranquil would be able carry those tasks out, she would create and experiment to make new kinds of potions.

The problem is we are specifically told that Formori are exclusively made of Tranquil mages and Sol is definately Formori.

-Polaris

[Sons of Horus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

I just thought that Solivitus was just a mage part of the Formari who specialised in high level crafting of particular items rather than the Tranquil who could do the mundane to great. Ines Arancia wouldn't craft or gather items for a common potions usually, as the tranquil would be able carry those tasks out, she would create and experiment to make new kinds of potions.

The problem is we are specifically told that Formori are exclusively made of Tranquil mages and Sol is definately Formori.

-Polaris

Just take it as a retcon then. or hope they bring it up in a novel, dlc or future game. Remember we have a limited view of the world as we are seeing the circle this time around from the view point of someone outside the circles.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 01 octobre 2011 - 05:45 .

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

I just thought that Solivitus was just a mage part of the Formari who specialised in high level crafting of particular items rather than the Tranquil who could do the mundane to great. Ines Arancia wouldn't craft or gather items for a common potions usually, as the tranquil would be able carry those tasks out, she would create and experiment to make new kinds of potions.

The problem is we are specifically told that Formori are exclusively made of Tranquil mages and Sol is definately Formori.

-Polaris

So perhaps he's the first non-Tranquil Formari who specializes in enchantments that don't require lyrium. We have no idea when First Enchanter Josephus wrote that codex. For all we know he lived three Ages ago, and it's outdated.

[IanPolaris]

The other problem is we are told explicitly in DAO that enchanting requires the manipulation of pure lyrium in various runes and that people with active magical talent simply CAN NOT do this (and live) and it's the very disconnection from the fade that permits Tranquil and Deep Dwarves to enchant at all.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

In short, if it's a retcon it's a pretty blatent and lazy one.

-Polaris

[Teddie Sage]

Not really, it was in my intention to declare war to the Chantry, anyway. I've been searching for a way to deal with them ever since Origins. I'm just that bad.

[Sons of Horus]

Teddie Sage wrote...

Not really, it was in my intention to declare war to the Chantry, anyway. I've been searching for a way to deal with them ever since Origins. I'm just that bad.

Kind of reminds me of when i was reading a discworld novel (The Last Continent i think it was) How Rincewind view on magic to solve your own problems is like trying to "beat mice to death with a rattlesnake". I would think that using mages to try to wipe out the Chantry would be more like pouring gasoline on everything and then lighting a match.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 01 octobre 2011 - 06:04 .

[Big I]

IanPolaris wrote...

The other problem is we are told explicitly in DAO that enchanting requires the manipulation of pure lyrium in various runes and that people with active magical talent simply CAN NOT do this (and live) and it's the very disconnection from the fade that permits Tranquil and Deep Dwarves to enchant at all.

-Polaris

Here is the codex entry on the Tranquil. They become enchanters because the Rite makes them immune to distraction.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 01 octobre 2011 - 06:45 .

[IanPolaris]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The other problem is we are told explicitly in DAO that enchanting requires the manipulation of pure lyrium in various runes and that people with active magical talent simply CAN NOT do this (and live) and it's the very disconnection from the fade that permits Tranquil and Deep Dwarves to enchant at all.

-Polaris

Here is the codex entry on the Tranquil. They become enchanters because the Rite makes them immune to distraction.

It's not just that though.  Tranquil and Deep Dwarves also lack a connection to the fade and that is also key to them being enchanters.  I remember that detail clearly.

-Polaris

[esper]

IanPolaris wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The other problem is we are told explicitly in DAO that enchanting requires the manipulation of pure lyrium in various runes and that people with active magical talent simply CAN NOT do this (and live) and it's the very disconnection from the fade that permits Tranquil and Deep Dwarves to enchant at all.

-Polaris

Here is the codex entry on the Tranquil. They become enchanters because the Rite makes them immune to distraction.

It's not just that though.  Tranquil and Deep Dwarves also lack a connection to the fade and that is also key to them being enchanters.  I remember that detail clearly.

-Polaris

I am sorry, but did Sol really do enchantments? I was under the impression that he was a herbelist and made potions. Any enchantment he sells is properly made by working together with the tranquil in the circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I can't find anyhting in the lore which states that it is the Tranquils' disconnection from the Fade which allows them to manipulate lyrium. Tranquils have no innate immunity to lyrium, but their severed emotions allow them for far higher levels of concentration, which allows them to manipulate lyrium more safely.

[TastesLikeTNT]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I can't find anyhting in the lore which states that it is the Tranquils' disconnection from the Fade which allows them to manipulate lyrium. Tranquils have no innate immunity to lyrium, but their severed emotions allow them for far higher levels of concentration, which allows them to manipulate lyrium more safely.

I think the Tranquil you meet in Ostagar says something to the effect of "It is our very disconnection from our former talents that allows the Tranquil to work with lyrium so. A true mage could not."

If I remembered it correctly, I suppose that could be interpreted as such.

Anyway, I thought Sol just made potions and not enchantments?

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 01 octobre 2011 - 10:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Solivitus isn't a tranquil, and he doesn't make enchantments. He is an alchemist, and make potions. I think there already were a discussion regarding Solivitus, and it was clarified that there are mages within the Formari, but that all Tranquil who remains with the Circle are automatically entered into the Formari fraternity. The Formari is the least political of the fraternities, and are more akin to a trade guild, than a political faction.

[Wereparrot]

I always kill Anders, and would do the same if it was anyone else. I always side with the mages, but I'm also pro-chantry, and deplore the methods of many revolutionaries to the extent that I feel that allying myself to them and their cause in the face of Templar intolerance is more a case of enemies uniting against a common foe.

[Urzon]

And let Anders get away from killing all those people and leading the Mage Revolution by commiting suicide by Hawke? Never.

Plus, I would never kill him because that's just what he wants.

"Jennifer Hepler describes the choice of keeping Anders alive as "poetic justice", as he would have to face and suffer the knowledge of the lives he took. She also states her belief that he wishes death so the people that he inevitably kills receives proper justice as well"

I 100% agree.

Modifié par Urzon, 01 octobre 2011 - 12:31 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Um the Lore is very clear that either you are a Dwarf or you are Tranquil in order to do enchantments. Actual mages are especially suseptible to Lyrium poisoning, but it's made very clear in the lore that anyone that isn't a Deep Dwarf or Tranquil simply can not take the Lyrium exposure needed to enchant. I agree that Sol doesn't act much like a tranquil, but the codex and lore are unambigious on this point. If you are part of the Formori order, you ARE a tranquil mage. No exceptions (except maybe Deep Dwarf observers).

-Polaris

There is NO way Sol is tranquil.  The Lore and the Game contradict (and we've never seen that, have we). 

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Solivitus isn't a tranquil, and he doesn't make enchantments. He is an alchemist, and make potions. I think there already were a discussion regarding Solivitus, and it was clarified that there are mages within the Formari, but that all Tranquil who remains with the Circle are automatically entered into the Formari fraternity. The Formari is the least political of the fraternities, and are more akin to a trade guild, than a political faction.

How does Uzara's Tooth enter into this?  He made a permanent item, using the body part of a high dragon as a part or ingredient.  Is that an enchantment, or a non-potion alchemical creation? 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 01 octobre 2011 - 04:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since lyrium isn't invovled in the amulet's creation, it can't be that kind of enchantment. Don't get me wrong, it is still a magical item, it just isn't an enchanted item (trying to use the terms established in Thedas). Enchantment seems to be the manipulation of lyrium to enchant runes to grant magical properties to items. The amulet Solivitus creates doesn't include any lyrium (that you supply anyway). That is not to say that he didn't simply have some tranquil assist him in creating the item.

As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure that you MUST be a tranquil or dwarf to work lyirum. It simply seems that the dwarves' natural resistance, and the tranquils' hightened concentration allows them to work lyrium risk free.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Although, I don't necessarily agree with Anders decision to blow up the Chantry, I can understand it and sympthatise with his underlying grievance (his hatred of the Chantry and desire for freedom). His purpose was to shatter the status quo and to force everyone to pick a side, rather than letting things continue to drift as they were. He believed (rightly, I suspect) that change was only going to happen through a radical shake up, and he decided to be the agent of change regardless of the personal cost.

Anders action is exactly what happens when you squeeze people more and more until they have nothing left to lose and they fight back with whatever means they have at their disposal.  Then again, when one is fighting an asymetrical war against a superior foe, it is often necessary to resort to unconventional (and unpleasant) tactics.

I really don't have any sympathy for the Chantry (although I do for Grand Cleric Elthina, who seemed alright, if a bit wishy-washy). For the most part, the Chantry (as an organisation) has brought it on themselves by their systematic oppression and exploitation of mages, the vast majority of whose only crime is existing.

In answer to the OPs question, I spare Anders for two reasons:

1. Because as Hawke, I am the child of a mage who lived a good life outside the circle, and am either a mage myself or the sibling of a mage, so I have a personal interest in the treatment of  mages in Thedas. Ergo, I am likely to be sympathetic to their cause. I cannot fathom how anyone could seriously believe that Hawke would support the Rite of Annulment if Bethany was in the Circle (Hawke knows she's no Blood mage).

2. To give him the chance to try to redeem himself because although he has done a questionable thing, he had done it for altruistic reasons, and I just cannot bring myself to damn him for that.

* For the record, I don't particularly like Anders as a character.